Advanced 30-30 reloading

[milsurpguy]

Been working on some 30-30 loads. Got them down to about 1 moa with rcbs 2 FL die set I bought used 20 years ago. The next logical step is get a bushing neck sizing die or collet die. My problem now is most of the brass I have is remington. The problem with remington brass is I get a variance of neck diameter on loaded rounds by as much as 5 thousands of an inch and collet or bushing neck die would be pretty useless.
So neck tension is all over the place real bad.
I have a neck turning rig set up for 6.5mm, so all I have to do is buy one little part, the neck auger and I can do 30cal.
My 30-30 brass pile is growing.
I could largely eliminate this problem just buying hornady brass. Haha yeah right. I'm stuck with remington till well after the plandemic is well over. The hornady brass is obtainable at gouge prices, or as loaded ammo also being sold at gouge prices. So the 30cal auger is the cheap option.
I always turned 6.5 necks unless I fired factory ammo, and always reloaded with a full redding neck bushing die. And I never tested it, just always did it, now no new brass on hand, all the 6.5 necks are turned, because ammo shortage.
How big of a difference can turning necks and going to a neck bushing die really make?

 

[glockgod]

If you're getting 1 moa out of a 30-30 especially a lever gun you ought to be overjoyed. You may have hit the point of diminishing returns. I'd leave well enough alone and go to another project. But if tinkering makes you happy go for it

 

[Ru4real]

My experience

If you have a polished bore, an aftermarket barrel that has been hand lapped, or similar, then neck tension can make a difference in group size.

Otherwise, consistent neck tension won’t significantly reduce group size, however crimping might.

 

[edwardware]

. . . 30-30 loads. Got them down to about 1 moa

Dude. . . you need to carefully record whatever ritualistic animal sacrifice got you there (assuming this is a lever gun)! That's fantastic.

Neck turning is extremely unlikely to make an appreciable difference without a premium barrel, premium bullets, and either good optics or world-class iron sights and excellent eyesight.

Be (very) happy.

 

[film495]

I don't understand how you're getting the variance in the neck of so much. If the brass is the same headstamp, I'd think it would be more consistent.

 

[Charlie98]

.30-30 necks are so thin already, I wonder if you might cause more problems than you fix by turning those necks.

I'm also not sure why you champion Hornady brass... I consider it scrap when I get it. It is usually lighter than everything else I have (read: thinner) and I've had OAL inconsistencies with some cartridges. Granted, I've seen the same thing with RP (inconsistencies) and particularly WW brass (new production, not my old stuff,) so it is what it is.

 

[AJC1]

I would say your at the system limit. What you the rifle and bullets are capable. Could you with years of effort eek out another 1/8moa, maybe. Dont try and put a new turbo on your geo metro and expect 10 second passes at the local drags.
Bushing dies are the latest trend in reloading and in a lot of cases not giving you better results. If your neck tension is that variable annealing will normalize that way better than a new die set.

 

[jmorris]

In a tube fed lever gun (assumption) I wouldn’t do anything that might reduce neck tension. like ream or turn necks. If wall thickness of your brass has a variation of .005, at least get brass all from the same lot.

 

[milsurpguy]

I'll tell you my secrets which aren't really secrets.
First thing I did was get a decent scope, just a sub $300 leupod, nothing special. But it will actually hold zero with the 30-30s deviating recoil.
Then I made adjustments to the gun.
1 free floating the barrel to forearm, or at least as much as you can on a 94AE. The forearm fit was so tight it left rub marks on the barrel.
2 Loosened the barrel bands so they wiggle a little bit but not rattle and pinned them.
3 shorten the mag tube by about 25 thousands.
4 when I'm shooting groups I single feed them.

Then all I had to do was put a bunch of of 160gr FTX bullets in the dirt and burn up some leverevolution powder.

I figured it would max out about 2 moa or so. Nope if you just pick a leverevolution load, trim your brass to uniform length you will probably be at 2 moa.

Right now it's at or close to 1 moa at 100 yards on a good day, a bad day probably a little over 1.5 moa. Who knows maybe those near 1 moa days I just happened to be almost all brass with pretty uniform necks, and the 1.5 days had the sloppy brass.
And I'm sure as is now, it won't hold those numbers out to like 250 yards. Is a lever gun that will hold 1moa out to 200 yards or be close to that too much to ask for?

3 years ago I would have said this is a 3 or 4 moa gun. Yeah its come a long ways.

The neck thickness is varying by up to 2.5 thousands, the loaded rounds are varying by 5 thousands. Oh with 1.5 thousands runout.
I don't have a case micrometer yet, I probably should have one. But measuring the winchester, hornady and federal brass gave me a real consistent 9 thousands. I'm sure there is some parallax error using dial caliper flat pincers, but it was real consistent. Hornady was the best. If you could just get all hornady brass you could avoid the neck inconsistency thing all together. I think the rcbs neck turning rig will bring the Remington case necks to hornady consistency.

I already anneal for case life as brass recovery is about 99%.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Why did you shorten the mag tube?

I like my lever guns and am loading 30-30 now so love to hear from people who have done it well.

 

[milsurpguy]

The magazine tube touches the reciever, could potentially apply force to the barrel by the muzzel. It still feeds fine.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I'll tell you my secrets which aren't really secrets.
First thing I did was get a decent scope, just a sub $300 leupod, nothing special. But it will actually hold zero with the 30-30s deviating recoil.
Then I made adjustments to the gun.
1 free floating the barrel to forearm, or at least as much as you can on a 94AE. The forearm fit was so tight it left rub marks on the barrel.
2 Loosened the barrel bands so they wiggle a little bit but not rattle and pinned them.
3 shorten the mag tube by about 25 thousands.
4 when I'm shooting groups I single feed them.

Then all I had to do was put a bunch of of 160gr FTX bullets in the dirt and burn up some leverevolution powder.

I figured it would max out about 2 moa or so. Nope if you just pick a leverevolution load, trim your brass to uniform length you will probably be at 2 moa.

Right now it's at or close to 1 moa at 100 yards on a good day, a bad day probably a little over 1.5 moa. Who knows maybe those near 1 moa days I just happened to be almost all brass with pretty uniform necks, and the 1.5 days had the sloppy brass.
And I'm sure as is now, it won't hold those numbers out to like 250 yards. Is a lever gun that will hold 1moa out to 200 yards or be close to that too much to ask for?

3 years ago I would have said this is a 3 or 4 moa gun. Yeah its come a long ways.

The neck thickness is varying by up to 2.5 thousands, the loaded rounds are varying by 5 thousands. Oh with 1.5 thousands runout.
I don't have a case micrometer yet, I probably should have one. But measuring the winchester, hornady and federal brass gave me a real consistent 9 thousands. I'm sure there is some parallax error using dial caliper flat pincers, but it was real consistent. Hornady was the best. If you could just get all hornady brass you could avoid the neck inconsistency thing all together. I think the rcbs neck turning rig will bring the Remington case necks to hornady consistency.

I already anneal for case life as brass recovery is about 99%.

I also found lever evolution powder to give moa results from a scoped 30-30. I use 150 round nose though.
I would buy one bag of brass of any make and run it.

 

[milsurpguy]

Buy hornady brass, that woud be my first choice. I don't think anyone can get remington 2021 production 30-30 brass so that may be a good thing.

 

[milsurpguy]

I was able to secure a redding s bushing FL die with .325 sizer bushing and not pay gouge prices. The .325 was the closes size in stock, figured I have to start some where.
Also found a 30 cal rcbs neck turning pilot for retail price.
Can alwaysuse it on thick milsurp 30cal brass other than 30-30.
Might see if I can find a case neck micrometer used.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Buy hornady brass, that woud be my first choice. I don't think anyone can get remington 2021 production 30-30 brass so that may be a good thing.

You might be pleasantly surprised by ppu brass.
I've bought Hornady, Nosler, and PPU.
The primary difference was price tag.
20 teens Remington sucked. Current Remington is yet to be seen.

 

[milsurpguy]

You might be pleasantly surprised by ppu brass.
I've bought Hornady, Nosler, and PPU.
The primary difference was price tag.
20 teens Remington sucked. Current Remington is yet to be seen.

I haven't seen privi in 30-30 before, that would be cool.
Their 8mm mauser brass is probably the best mauser brass I have encountered.

 

[243winxb]

free floating the barrel to forearm

Helps the rifle hold zero from year to year. This fixed a Marlin 39A 22lr. Helps if the forearm wood is not wedged in there.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Half tube/button magazines look nice too.
Browning made a 1892 clone in 357 (BL-35?) with a button mag, a real beauty, my Grail gun.
Best I've done in 30-30 is 1.5"/100 yds with my single shot Handi.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, the necks on Remington brass are already thin so so wouldn't turn them.

Lee makes a great collet neck sizing die https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011198814?pid=291992 which is very easy to use and adjust. It produces quality ammo for me although I don't use It on the 30-30 because I shoot that cartridge in a lever gun.

 

[milsurpguy]

Yeah I saw the collet die, not recommend for semi auto or lever guns.

That's the problem some Remington case necks walls are up to 2.5 thousands thicker than what I would call the normal case necks.
I would likely have to measure a bunch of cases. Set the case neck trimmer so that it doesn't touch the neck on the normal cases, some of the normal thickness case necks have a bulge that gives the necks about 1.5 thousands extra thickness in one spot. The rcbs neck trimmer should be able to at least cut that 1.5 thousands high spot in half. I'll take half.
Then that way only the cases that with a high spot or extra neck thickness will get turned down and the thin/normal ones won't get any thinner.
I did get a regular case neck micrometer, not a vernier scale one I don't need the extra digit. All I had to do was get one that didn't say "hornady" on its side and they were pretty affordable.
So in about a week I should have a bunch of case neck thicknesses posted.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Yeah I saw the collet die, not recommend for semi auto or lever guns.

That's the problem some Remington case necks walls are up to 2.5 thousands thicker than what I would call the normal case necks.
I would likely have to measure a bunch of cases. Set the case neck trimmer so that it doesn't touch the neck on the normal cases, some of the normal thickness case necks have a bulge that gives the necks about 1.5 thousands extra thickness in one spot. The rcbs neck trimmer should be able to at least cut that 1.5 thousands high spot in half. I'll take half.
Then that way only the cases that with a high spot or extra neck thickness will get turned down and the thin/normal ones won't get any thinner.
I did get a regular case neck micrometer, not a vernier scale one I don't need the extra digit. All I had to do was get one that didn't say "hornady" on its side and they were pretty affordable.
So in about a week I should have a bunch of case neck thicknesses posted.

Doing that will help you get more consistent ammo with different brass.
It won't help varying case capacity and brass hardness. But it does get rid of one variable.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

The magazine tube touches the reciever, could potentially apply force to the barrel by the muzzel. It still feeds fine.

Thanks! Hadn't thought of that.

 

[milsurpguy]

Making trashy brass a little bit more consistent is what I'm going for.

 

[Charlie98]

You mentioned single-loading rounds when you are shooting for accuracy. Question for you... are you crimping those rounds?

 

[milsurpguy]

Just a little taper crimp.