After nearly 40 years Cooper finally lost me.

[MK11]

Re-read Blackhawk Down, particularly the part where one of the participants fires multiple .30 caliber bursts into a skinny old man before he goes down. Will post specific page number later.

 

[Mulliga]

We've commented on that Michael Yon blog post before, IIRC. Bad form to shoot a guy in the stomach and testicles and expect him to go down, with any caliber.

 

[The Freeholder]

I have a marked personal preference for older (and larger) calibers. My prefered are .45 and 30-06, but I' learning to like 7.62x51 and to tolerate certain 9 mm loadings.

That said, here's my take. Any gun you can handle and have confidence in is better than no gun at all. Caliber is important, but not overriding. Shot placement is the single most important factor in stopping someone/thing.

That's why I practice marksmanship, and I'm teaching my kids the same way.

 

[AirForceShooter]

444:
if you talk to a "Combat Vet" and he tells you he's never had a problem with a 16 he's never been in combat.
30 years of on and off combat taught me get an M-14 or and AK, FAST.
The .223 sucks as a killer.
Yeah i'm an old guy. I learned what works by screwing up.

AFS

 

[Byron]

AirForceShooter. My prior post indicated I had no problems with my 16 and you say I was never on combat. MOS 11B,D Co,3/8th INF,4th Inf Div 68-69.
I am a completley disabled vet due to combat in Nam and resent your lousy attitude. Do Google search on 947. I do not know what you did in the AF and appreciate what your duty was but I do know what my duty was. We cleaned our 16's. Any infantryman in any war would do so with his rifle.
Byron Adams

 

[Jeff White]

AirForceShooter,
Were you a PJ, Combat Controller or Security Forces? Those are the only three career fields in the Air Force where people have a chance of seeing ground combat. The number of Airmen in those fields who have actually been in a firefight has to be pretty small.

Where would someone in the Air Force even get an M14? IIRC the Air Force never adopted it, going straight from the M2 Carbine to the M16.

I think that if you were to poll the hundreds of thousands of Army and Marine combat vets who've used the M16 series, you'd find it's not exactly unloved.

Jeff
US Army 06 Dec 74 - 31 Oct 03 11B4HQ8 - 13B50

 

[Moonclip]

Right, my dad saw combat in the Army in Vietnam and he said his M16 never gave him any problems if kept clean. This was in 1971 though and he must have had one of the "improved" guns with the correct ammo.

My great uncle in mid 1960's in VN and Korea DMZ though preferred the M14, not so much for reliabilty, but for the higher caliber.

 

[Cosmoline]

Bad form to shoot a guy in the stomach and testicles and expect him to go down, with any caliber.

You think he would have had that much fight in him after three rounds at point blank from a Garand or M-14? I don't. Even with crappy FMJ bullets.

 

[pcf]

One of the worst things you can do in combat is to assume away enemy capability. The only safe assumption to make when expecting one rifle will kill the enemy better than another, is that your ass is going to end up in a sling.

During the Civil War tactics had not evolved to the level of weapons. Close range combat with long range weapons. They were using .58 caliber muskets, firing soft lead minie balls. Still the majority of the dead/disabled came from disease and infection. And many men on both sides continued the fight after being injured in battle.

The Civil War, Philippinnes, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam all tell a similar story about small arms in combat, they SUCK at killing.
Guns don't kill people, HE and WP kill people.

 

[AirForceShooter]

for your info Combat Controller (First Air Commando Group) assigned to the First Aussie Task Force. in Xuan Loc. 1967-68
I saw way too many men over their 16's
Mine was a piece of crap. it didn't even have the forward bolt assist let alone a cleaning kit. Kills me that Curtis LeMay was responsible for it's acquisition.
If you read what I wrote it was the the .223 sucks as a man killer. I hate the 16 but it's round is what gets people killed. and we had full auto's if you remember.
As for picking up an M-14, that was the easy part. It always has been.
The Aussies had FAL's and would kill for a M-14.
Since then I simply don't trust the 16 and never will.

You don't like that I don't agree with you that's ok but don't tell me I'm full of it.

Have a nice day

AFS

 

[VG]

I have been reading Jeff Cooper's opinions since 1968 and I thought he was right much of the time. Even when I disagreed I still respected his accomplishments. But sometimes he says things that are pretty out there and he sometimes mistakes his opinions for cold hard facts.

Maybe the tinfoil in his helmet was too tight that day?

 

[Sam]

Jeff,
Not going to start an interservice urinating contest, but I am going to disagree with you mightily on what AFSC's in the AF "might have a chance of seeing ground combat". That spread is pretty wide. I attended one shootem'up where there were 40 some AF troops in more than 20 AFSCs assigned to the site. No PJ's, no Combat Controllers, 2 Security Forces troops who were off site at the time and were attached to train locals. As I remember the only person who managed to score was an AGE mechanic assigned to service generators and air conditioning units.
There were members of that unit drawing special pay under DoD 1340.9 for 6 of the 7 years I was assigned. Not 1 day of that was in the Middle East. That unit had no M-14’s but did have 225 M16's, 34 M-9's, 8 M60's, 8 M79's, 1 Mk19 and 1 M40 along with a full complement of Claymores, M26's and auths for a bundle of M72's that we never funded.

When my arms room was inventoried before retirement last Nov, the unit had 2 M21's and 2 Barrets besides the usual complement of 16's, M4's, M9's, 203's, M60's and a couple of shotguns. There were two unfilled auths for M14's and 2 McMillan 50’s on order as of 1 Nov 2004. Can’t say about now. That was a Wing/Base level Civil Engineering unit. It had personnel in the gulf assigned to infantry organizations from 2002 to at least last week.


There is a lot of difference between what is listed in the book as assigned duties and what your duties are.

Sam

 

[mustanger98]

them:

Feed a good AR good softpoints, and it will be at least a good a manstopper as any 308 using ball ammo, and you can do more by being 15 lbs lighter, or having 15 lbs more of useful gear, instead of pointless guns-ammo wt.

Are you taking into account the lugged bolt face and chamber mouth? A former Marine (served during the '80's) advised me not to be shooting SP's in a AR15 because they're liable to hang up there.

FWIW, I can run SP's in my M1 Garand- I've done it- and be that much more effective over the mousegun. And I chose a heavier rifle for a reason- recoil reduction (partly in the gas system) with the advantages of the full power cartridge. I don't consider that pointless.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Mustanger98, Not to be confrontational or anything but,...

You expect people to not use sp ammo in an AR-15, simply because a former marine friend of yours oesn't think it works reliably? Sounds logical to me ... Have you personally ever shot an AR-15 with soft point ammo? I have, and it worked just fine. Side note: Our SWAT officers around here use American Eagle Soft Points, exclusively in their AR-15 . Second, I take issue with your adding in the fact that this is second hand info, but since it is from,"Former Marine", it is to carry more weight with it . I don't know if this guy could tell a charging handle from an ejection port, as many people have no clue what they are talking about. No disrespect intended, just my opinion having used SP in my Bushmaster M4 and MP15-ARpistol . YMMV

PS-Soft point means-soft. The soft lead(or whatever metal) will usually deform a little rather than,"hang up", or atleast this is my experience with the American Eagle SP after having chambered, and then ejecting an unfired round. I did have some hunting .223 rounds hang up to the point that the bullet re-seated itself half way into the case ...The few left were loaded manually as I can't stand wasting ammo, lol.

 

[mustanger98]

You expect people to not use sp ammo in an AR-15, simply because a former marine friend of yours oesn't think it works reliably?... ...Second, I take issue with your adding in the fact that this is second hand info, but since it is from,"Former Marine", it is to carry more weight with it

I personally don't expect anybody to do one way or the other. That's not what my post was about. I said that was the advise I was given. Take it for what it's worth. I don't know whether the guy would be counted among my friends or not had we had a longer association either. You did say "YMMV".

 

[AirForceShooter]

Thanks Sam.
and remember we never discuss those "other detachments" do we.

AFS

 

[Byron]

Sam and Shooter, Know I take nothing away from your service.I had a friend that was an AP in Nam and did things outside his MOS. I was infantry as previouly indicated.We were in Cambodia in 68-69 and fought Chinese Nung.
I saw a lot of combat w/my 16 and my opinions have been expressed already so do not judge me based upon an assumption you have. I am attaching a web site that was made by our Recon Sgt.It shows day to day life of a line infantry company and some more recent pictures. Byron

http://members2.clubphoto.com/richard214473/guest-1.phtml

 

[bobhaverford]

Byron,

Thanks for the pics. I enjoyed them. Your pictures make the entire experience almost look enjoyable - assuming you survived. I dodged the bullet with a high draft number.

 

[Byron]

Bob, what the pictures do not show is that we stayed out up to 8 weeks at a time without changing fatiques or taking a bath. March 5th, 69, we went from 140+ men to 34 the next day. The day before A Co was hit harder than us. In a prior post, I referred to 947, the hill it came down on.Do a google search on that. Glad you missed it. Byron

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

While this is based on shooting animals other that human I do believe that the compairison is valid. The .223/5.56 is not even legal to hunt big game with in most states.

But those who use it on deer say that it is very effective.

 

[Sam]

What other detachments?

Sam

 

[Cosmoline]

The Civil War, Philippinnes, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam all tell a similar story about small arms in combat, they SUCK at killing.
Guns don't kill people, HE and WP kill people.

All of those wars involved the use of FMJ bullets, which I agree SUCK at killing. I guarantee if we armed our boys with @120 grain Barnes X or high quality SP's in a sweet 6.5mm cartridge at about 2,500 fps... boy howdy. One shot to the gut of a terrorist would paint the wall red and turn his innards into outards. Very nasty, extremely unpleasant to see and nothing an MD let alone a medic could ever fix. Bits of gut, spine, liver and lord knows what all blown out a fist-size exit wound at supersonic speed, not to mention the internal devestation. The Europeans would decry it as "inhumane," but they think we're all war criminals now anyway so who cares? I've seen what proper bullets do to 1,500 lb. bull moose, and it doesn't take much imagination to picture a man's much smaller and more fragile body hit with such an awesome projectile.

We've been killing really, really big animals with PROPER bullets SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL for 100 years. During that same period the military brass has decided to keep using primitive and highly inefficient FMJ rounds because they and the politicos who guide them are hidebound idiots. They either don't want to kill the enemy or they just don't care and would rather not rock the 100+ year old canoe called the Hague Convention

Small arms do not suck at killing. FMJ spitzer bullets suck at killing. It's illegal to use them to kill anything bigger than a biscuit.

 

[bobhaverford]

Bob, what the pictures do not show is that we stayed out up to 8 weeks at a time without changing fatiques or taking a bath. March 5th, 69, we went from 140+ men to 34 the next day. The day before A Co was hit harder than us. In a prior post, I referred to 947, the hill it came down on.Do a google search on that. Glad you missed it. Byron

Did the search. Called my wife into my office and we read about the battle for hill 947 together. March of 69 I was a senior in HS without any awareness whatsoever of what was going on over there. My hat is off to you. You guys know the meaning of Esto Vir.

 

[wahsben]

It has been said many times before but I'll say it again. Bullet placement rather than caliber is the determining factor in stopping someone. A 5.56 through the heart is more effective than a 50 to the arm.

 

[thatguy]

Cosmoline and AirForceShooter- You speak of the 5.56 not being a good "man killer" but bear in mind the 5.56 was never meant to kill. Part of the philosophy the military was serving in adopting the smaller caliber was that it was better to wound an enemy than to kill him. I know the individual soldier disagrees and wants any enemy he shoots to be dead, but modern military strategy is that wounding an enemy takes him out of the fight while causing a drain on the enemy resources (the wounded man still needs food and water plus medical care and 1-2 men to carry him). When I have pointed out this wounding strategy in the past some people get very agitated at me for some reason that I never understood. Military planners deal in numbers. They figure a wounded enemy is a bigger drain on the enemy force than is a dead one.

I'm sure that many men gut-shot with a 5.56 don't immediately die, but I doubt that they continue fighting effectively for long.

I repeat my initial point which is that the 5.56 has done what the military (if not all of the individual soldiers) wanted.

PS: It's well known that the early M16s suffered problems, mostly due to the usage of ammo loaded with ball powder. But the M16 and it's variants have served for nearly 40 years. It must be doing SOMETHING right.