Ahhh the old recovered failed bullet conundrum.

[mcb]

I took a moderately nice buck this past Wednesday, 7 pts, 160 lbs live weight. First deer in three years. The bullet entered but did not exit. I recovered part of the bullet from said deer when field dressing it, the rest of the bullet was lost somewhere in the field dressing. I though I might find more when we butchered but we did that yesterday and I did not find any more bullet fragments.

This is the only part recovered.

This was a traditional cup and core bullet. The jacket was completely lost. The remaining lead core weighs 43.7% of the original bullets weight.

The deer was recovered so it hard to argue a complete failure but would you consider this a failed bullet?

Would that angle of impact change your opinion of no exit?

Would what the bullet hit (ie bone or not) change that opinion of this bullet?

Would the distant the deer went after being hit change that opinion?

 

[brewer12345]

Cartridge? Distance?

 

[jmr40]

Need more info. Caliber, bullet weight, estimated velocity at impact. That's actually about what I'd expect as to remaining weight retention. But light for caliber bullets impacting at speeds over 2800-3000 fps will often over expand and not give complete penetration. For example, a 150 gr @ 2900-3000 fps at the muzzle fired from a 30-06 and impacting inside 100 yards.

A heavy for caliber bullet will still often come apart, but because it is heavier to start with, and impacting slower will expand less and penetrate more. For example, a 165 gr @ 2700 fps fired from a 308.

Inexpensive cup and core bullets kill stuff just fine but have a narrower range of impact speeds to work well. The more expensive premium bullets work well over a wider range of impact speeds. When you start pushing bullets faster then it pays to use a more expensive bullet

In a nutshell the bullet probably didn't fail. You may have been using a bullet outside its design parameters.

 

[crstrode]

If the deer was killed by that bullet it did not fail.

 

[mcb]

150gr Core-Lokt PSP is the bullet. Impact velocity is ~2250 fps estimated from known muzzle velocity, range to target, and BC.

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Bullet didn't fail. Looks like a high angle impact. How much penetration did it achieve?

 

[mcb]

Hard to estimate, but I would say 16-20 inches.

 

[earlthegoat2]

You hit the deer in the vitals. You recovered it. The bullet seems to have shed a bit more weight than maybe would be ideal but you found a distinct chunk of lead that at one time made up the base of the bullet. I think it performed within its parameters of performance.

Without asking any other questions, I will yammer a bit on bullets, bullet construction, cartridges, cartridge power levels, and my history with “bullet failures” that ended with dead and recovered game but not necessarily recovered bullets. This doesn't directly pertain to the OP and is rather my own ramblings.

Please note my opinions reflect an explicit implication that shot placement is good. That is to say, the shot was made where if enough penetration occurred, vital organs would be hit regardless of angle. If the vital organs were not struck but would have if penetration had been further or if the bullet had not broken apart, then a more powerful cartridge needs to be used or a better constructed bullet.

One opinion I have is if a bullet performs well, the game animal will not run away a long distance. Those distances are relative to the animal and the shot placement of course but for example, if I double lung a critter, it should die fast. If it doesn't please read on for some further opinions on the matter.

Killing capability, in my VERY unpopular opinion, is directly related to how big of a hole and how many holes you put in said game animal. (As noted above, shot placement or to say it more succinctly, bullet direction is good) The size of these holes is dictated by bullet diameter and bullet expansion after impact. This directly relates to bullet design and construction. Bullets that work as designed do not necessarily put big holes in critters. Bullets which are designed to put big holes in critters do not even necessarily do that.

If a bullet comes apart inside an animal and falls short of the vitals, the bullet was inadequately sized to the game being pursued or at the very least to the angle of the shot taken. Specifically, the bullet was too light...and possibly too small of diameter as well since increasing diameter increases weight as well in conventionally available projectiles.

If a bullet stays together and even expands but fails to reach the vitals, there was not enough velocity behind it when it struck the target or also was not heavy enough.

If the bullet reaches the vitals whether or not it adequately stays together then you have a dead critter. The question is, where will it die?

You may think I am skipping over sectional density. No. I don’t die on the hill of sectional density. I die on the hill of using enough gun. I hunt animals where enough rifle won’t kill you on the back end. That is to say, I hunt North American game which are all easily taken with a light medium magnum rifle. 300 or 338 Mag of some flavor.

You may think I am skipping over important hunting variables like shot angles or longer ranges. No. Once again, use enough gun or don’t take the shot.

As to bullet design. If the bullet doesn’t kill the animal when the vitals are hit then that is catastrophic failure regardless of bullet construction. If a bullet could fail from point blank range out to the maximum range you will take an animal then you need to use a different bullet.

Here are some specific examples of my “bullet failures”. Around 10 deer killed with a muzzleloader and a 44 cal XTP. Perfect behind the shoulder broadside shots. Through and through entrance and exit wounds. I saw every one of these deer die. All went over 200 yds left very scant blood when I followed their trail and had caliber sized entry and exits indicating no expansion. IMO, bullet failed to work as designed. Never recovered one nor found fragments inside the carcass.

Had the same thing occur on quartering shots using 450 BM and FTX bullets. Caliber sized holes in and out and long runs. Most recently I shot a buck with an FTX and it ran about 30 yds and I recovered the bullet and it had perfect expansion and a bit of weight loss. Shot that one about 10 yds away too so I suppose expansion happened immediately. I have shot several other deer with 450 BM and FTXs that have been DRT. The 250 gr FTX seems to have wildly varying performance.

I have never seen a deer take another step ever after having been shot in vital organs with a 12 ga foster slug.

Of course I have had several instances where I want to blame bullet performance for the loss of game but I will never know. Other than that I had the utmost confidence in my skills, my equipment, and the shot I took, I can’t explain why the animal bounded off with the tiniest bit of blood in one spot and none other found. IOW, don’t use 250 gr T/C Shockwaves in your ML. They might be a rebranded FTX even.

 

[Kingcreek]

How much deader would that deer be if the bullet had not failed?

 

[mcb]

Personally I don't think the bullet failed at all, but I know many people that would look at what I recovered and say the bullet failed.

@earlthegoat2, you should recognize that stock.

In this case the performance was nearly perfect IMHO. If anything it over penetrated for my needs since the bullet fragment was recovered in the stomach and that cause minor field dress issues. The shot was a head on shot with me being a fair bit higher than the deer. The deer was head down feeding, facing almost directly at me. The bullet enter the base of the neck about 1-inch off center, but missing the shoulder blade going under it. It damage two vertebrae and shatter the ends of the two ribs that attached to them. Fragments of bullet and bone filled the lungs and major blood vessels above the heart full of small holes. The recovered lead core made it through the diaphragm and into the stomach where I recovered it with the aid of a metal detector. My brother was amused and the nephews a bit turned off by the smell as I rummage stomach content feeling for the bullet.

The deer never took a step after being struck, it reared up but then collapsed onto its rump, fell to the ground, rolling to its right side, then twitched a bit and then became still. The damage to the CNS is what put the deer down immediately and the extensive damage cause by bullet and bone fragments ensure it never recovered from that CNS shock.

I am rapidly becoming a fan of neck shots, next year I will have to try it from the side instead of head on. The over penetration into the guts makes the head on shot less than ideal (done it twice now) but I was hoping 30 RAR would penetrate less than 450 BM and it did but not by enough. Had I hit the spine more centered my plan might have worked.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Every frontal shot I have ever taken with a firearm on a deer has been a DRT. It is a pretty effective angle with an adequately powerful firearm.

Congratulations on a nice buck. I am glad the stock is working out for you. I really like it on my 450.

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Hard to estimate, but I would say 16-20 inches.

If I'd have had to guess I'd have said 20 inches. If you really feel like it over penetrated, slow it down about 200 fps or so and try again. I wouldn't change it though.

 

[mcb]

If I'd have had to guess I'd have said 20 inches. If you really feel like it over penetrated, slow it down about 200 fps or so and try again. I wouldn't change it though.

Yeah I don't plan on changing anything mostly because this is factory ammo I am shooting in my 30 RAR, and the over penetration was only a (minor) problem here due to the particular shot I choose to take. I have a fairly large cache of the 150gr Core-Lokt factory load. I am working my way through it and will start reloading 30 RAR when I have a nice batch of once brass and find a new bullet I want to try. I actually have two sets of dies for the cartridge having fallen into a second set at the local pawn shop just before hunting season. I have both versions of the dies that RCBS made, one with a Full Length sizing die and one with their small-base AR sizing die version.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I took a moderately nice buck this past Wednesday, 7 pts, 160 lbs live weight. First deer in three years. The bullet entered but did not exit. I recovered part of the bullet from said deer when field dressing it, the rest of the bullet was lost somewhere in the field dressing. I though I might find more when we butchered but we did that yesterday and I did not find any more bullet fragments.

This is the only part recovered.
View attachment 1124420 View attachment 1124421
This was a traditional cup and core bullet. The jacket was completely lost. The remaining lead core weighs 43.7% of the original bullets weight.

The deer was recovered so it hard to argue a complete failure but would you consider this a failed bullet?

Would that angle of impact change your opinion of no exit?

Would what the bullet hit (ie bone or not) change that opinion of this bullet?

Would the distant the deer went after being hit change that opinion?

I consider that a job well done. I don't care if my bullet exits or not. Animal died and can be eaten.

 

[jmorris]

If it dies at the location it was hit, I call it a success. It doesn’t need to have the ability to pass through, enough destruction on the inside to kill is more important to me than a pass through.

 

[horsey300]

I took a moderately nice buck this past Wednesday, 7 pts, 160 lbs live weight. First deer in three years. The bullet entered but did not exit. I recovered part of the bullet from said deer when field dressing it, the rest of the bullet was lost somewhere in the field dressing. I though I might find more when we butchered but we did that yesterday and I did not find any more bullet fragments.

This is the only part recovered.
View attachment 1124420 View attachment 1124421
This was a traditional cup and core bullet. The jacket was completely lost. The remaining lead core weighs 43.7% of the original bullets weight.

The deer was recovered so it hard to argue a complete failure but would you consider this a failed bullet?

Would that angle of impact change your opinion of no exit?

Would what the bullet hit (ie bone or not) change that opinion of this bullet?

Would the distant the deer went after being hit change that opinion?

Not a failure, period. Bullet made it to the vitals, causing destruction, deforming along the way, and created the intended scenario that led to the ability to recover the bullet. Now if we're desiring an exit every time, a different bullet may be required but that's not this bullet's "failure".

 

[Slamfire]

I took a moderately nice buck this past Wednesday, 7 pts, 160 lbs live weight. First deer in three years. The bullet entered but did not exit. I recovered part of the bullet from said deer when field dressing it, the rest of the bullet was lost somewhere in the field dressing. I though I might find more when we butchered but we did that yesterday and I did not find any more bullet fragments.

This is the only part recovered.
View attachment 1124420 View attachment 1124421
This was a traditional cup and core bullet. The jacket was completely lost. The remaining lead core weighs 43.7% of the original bullets weight.

The deer was recovered so it hard to argue a complete failure but would you consider this a failed bullet?

Would that angle of impact change your opinion of no exit?

Would what the bullet hit (ie bone or not) change that opinion of this bullet?

Would the distant the deer went after being hit change that opinion?

Happened to me with a Norma 7.62 X54 R cartridge out of a Finnish M27. I shot the deer right at the anus, as it was running away, distance, less than 15 yards. The jacket came off and the core went forward into the abdomen. Dropped the deer and it was dead within seconds.

One of the problems of cup and core bullets is that they have the propensity to come apart at close range, where velocity is highest. If the lead core is heavy enough, it will continue moving.

A bud of mine has had problems with 308 Hornady SST bullet not expanding if shot through the ribs. The bullet goes through, small hole, the deer runs off, dies 200 yards later. When this happened it was dusk, and he found the deer the next day eaten by coyotes. Since then, bud aims between the shoulder and neck. He wants solid meat for the bullet to expand, and the deer drop like a ton of bricks.

Is it a failure? You succeeded in your mission, you killed the rabbit.

But if it bothers you, try something like Nosler partition, which is designed to keep the integrity of the bullet.

Blast from the past




Even PO Ackley got into the act

 

[brewer12345]

Happened to me with a Norma 7.62 X54 R cartridge out of a Finnish M27. I shot the deer right at the anus, as it was running away, distance, less than 15 yards. The jacket came off and the core went forward into the abdomen. Dropped the deer and it was dead within seconds.

One of the problems of cup and core bullets is that they have the propensity to come apart at close range, where velocity is highest. If the lead core is heavy enough, it will continue moving.

A bud of mine has had problems with 308 Hornady SST bullet not expanding if shot through the ribs. The bullet goes through, small hole, the deer runs off, dies 200 yards later. When this happened it was dusk, and he found the deer the next day eaten by coyotes. Since then, bud aims between the shoulder and neck. He wants solid meat for the bullet to expand, and the deer drop like a ton of bricks.

Is it a failure? You succeeded in your mission, you killed the rabbit.

But if it bothers you, try something like Nosler partition, which is designed to keep the integrity of the bullet.

Blast from the past

View attachment 1124799


Even PO Ackley got into the act
View attachment 1124800

I use partitions in 30-06 precisely for this reason, plus they have a long, long track record of success. But I shoot very little of it, no more than 5 rounds a year. If I were shooting higher volume, it would be unaffordable.

I think it is important to match the bullet to the cartridge, prey, and conditions. I'd never use SSTs in my 30-06 elk load, but for a 6.5 Grendel deer load they appear to be perfect.

 

[JeffG]

To me, dead deer means no bullet failure, the bullet is just a curiosity. After looking at a .243 90 gr Accubond bullet, recovered from a hog kill, I decided to use a heavier bullet or bigger caliber next time. But hog in the freezer, no problem.

 

[Random 8]

Personally, I wouldn't call it a failure, but I would consider it less than optimal and would (did) discontinue using core lokts. I don't think they're the same bullet they used to be 30 years ago when they built a solid reputation. I don't like when the jacket heel separates from the core, or what's left of it. I have not had this happen with the Speer Hot Core or Hornady IL Flat base which I use pretty much interchangebly for .30 cal whitetail depending on accuracy in a particular rifle. I USED to put the CL into that category, but found too many jackets in the meat. I'm a woods hunter, and weird shot angles are part of the game. I like a bullet to open up, then drive relatively deeply, so this colors my opinion. I've put a couple of whitetails down with shot angles similar to yours, and found a 50-60% mushroom in the offal, jacket heel intact with Speer HC or Hor IL.

 

[mcb]

Personally, I wouldn't call it a failure, but I would consider it less than optimal and would (did) discontinue using core lokts. I don't think they're the same bullet they used to be 30 years ago when they built a solid reputation. I don't like when the jacket heel separates from the core, or what's left of it. I have not had this happen with the Speer Hot Core or Hornady IL Flat base which I use pretty much interchangebly for .30 cal whitetail depending on accuracy in a particular rifle. I USED to put the CL into that category, but found too many jackets in the meat. I'm a woods hunter, and weird shot angles are part of the game. I like a bullet to open up, then drive relatively deeply, so this colors my opinion. I've put a couple of whitetails down with shot angles similar to yours, and found a 50-60% mushroom in the offal, jacket heel intact with Speer HC or Hor IL.

All my deer hunting is pretty much woods hunting. The longest shot I have ever taken at a whitetail has been ~120 yards, only one of our stands offers a shot much over that. Most of my deer are shot at 20-60 yards. As for the 150gr Core-Lokt, on one hand I probably have ~140 pieces of once fired 30 RAR brass I could start loading a new bullet with, on the other hand I have three plus cases of the 150gr Core-Lokt ammunition left to go. I have spent a lot of time in the woods with this rifle and ammo since I finished building it in early 2020 and everything I point it at dies. I have missed once (my fault, not the gun) and yet the follow up shot still harvested my first and only Bobcat. I have tallied a pile of armadillos with it and now my first deer. The 150gr Core-Lokt has never let me down yet. Given how much bone that bullet went through on that shot on the buck I am not too worried about the jacket separation. But ultimately knowing myself I have a about half a dozen other guns bought ostensibly as deer hunting firearms that have not yet taken a deer, so next year who know what I will be hunting with.

 

[Random 8]

Yeah, if I had 3+ cases of core lokt ammo left to go, I'd probably keep shooting them too! I don't have that "problem" with .300 Savage. You'd probably be hard pressed to find that much for sale in the USA at the moment unless you canvassed every sporting goods store in the Northwoods.

Not saying they won't kill. I just don't like the jacket and the core going off on random vectors. That's why I despise the SST, and generally don't use BTSPs for hunting. I've been amazed by what a IL or HC will go through at moderate velocity and still resemble a mushroom with a generally straight wound channel. When my POA misses the backstraps and HQ, I expect the bullet to miss them also. I get that with the ones I shoots, so I shoots them. We also have a bit different breed of deer up here. The fork I shot this year dressed at 186 lbs. They wear winter coats in MN.

 

[WestKentucky]

Technically, I think yes, you could consider that failed or marginal. But realistically I think I would be happy with it. Your main concern is getting to the target accurately. It did that. Second concern is utilizing the kinetic energy to do something when it hits. That something is dependent upon design. Your bullet is supposed to penetrate deeply but also mushroom out a bit. It accomplished that job. I can’t really find anything to complain about. Sure it could have kept its jacket or stayed together a bit better, but when your smacking flesh and bone at half-a-mile per second velocity violent and unpleasant things happen. It’s to be expected.

 

[Varminterror]

Despite extreme frequency of discussion online and otherwise among hunters, I’ve never considered hunting to be a task in which 100% powder combustion or 95% bullet weight retention to be critical parameters. Bullets have jobs to do, so I pick a bullet which should do the job, and after contact, if it did the job, I don’t give a damn what it looks like afterwards.

So to me, violent expansion in a deer hunting bullet which ends with me holding a bloody bullet in my hand isn’t a failure.

I’ve trailed deer and have both found bullets in the dirt at point of impact and inside of deer which had fantastic weight retention, but based on the distance the deer covered after impact, even with good placement, I consider them to have failed to deliver against expectations. Quick death and easy recovery of the animal are my expectations - trailing deer for a mile because a bullet didn’t do enough Work isn’t success.