Terminal performance of shots fired

[courtgreene]

There was a thread on here earlier about doing autopsies and learning from them when cleaning deer. It inspired me to make observations when doing so this gun season, so here is what I learned.

deer #1: .308 win out of a savage. 30 yards. 150gr Sierra pro hunter. Shoulder shot. The bullet performed well and was not recovered. Bones shattered with a large secondary wound channel.

deer#2: .41mag out of a rifle. 30 yards. Hornady xtp. Lung shot. I thought I missed so I shot again. Deer stood there as if nothing happened so I thought I missed again. Shot higher on the third shot and hit the spine ending the standoff. When cleaning and counting holes I discovered that I did not miss. The bullets all did their job. They expanded well or passed through. This must be why so many say that deer behave inexplicably after the shot.

Deer#3: 8x57js mauser out of a vz24. 160gr ttsx. 60 yards. Lung shot. Ran 60 yards. Bullet performed well, unrecovered. Both lungs were destroyed with a large secondary wound channel and a large exit wound.

Deer #4: 7.62x54r out of a mosin-nagant m91/30. 150gr hornady inter bond (.312”). Twenty five yards (I like getting into the thick stuff. I have a lot of close shots). Shoulder shot. Performed exactly like the pro hunter above with one exception... no exit. Bullet hit bone and lost most of its mass on the way through. Base was recovered as well as a few small fragments. Large secondary wound channel, and destruction of heart and lungs.

Deer #5: 30-30 out of a marlin 336. Tsx made for lever guns (tube mags). 150gr. It was a heart shot at forty yards and was surprisingly quick. Most heart shots have given me long tracking jobs but it was all I was offered so I took it. Deer went down instantly and died quickly. Gigantic secondary wound channel. Bullet exited and was therefore not recovered.

Deer #6: .223 out of a savage axis. 65gr. Sierra game king. 150 yard lung shot. Entered behind the shoulder and went back at an angle through the liver. Deer ran forty yards and collapsed leaving a very light trail. Didn’t have to but put another one in its head when I got to it just because of the .223 lore. Right lung and liver were shredded. Not a very big secondary wound channel. I don’t know if the shot angle or the distance contributed most to its less than ideal performance.

if you aren’t really into this then you’ve been bored substantially, and for that I offer my humblest apologies. If you’re considering any of these hunting options, though, then I hope it has been helpful.

 

[Hookeye]

Thanks for the write up.
I always check what my boolits and broadheads do.
This yr..............they all gathered dust.

Congrats on having a successful season.

 

[courtgreene]

Thanks. I’m learning as I butcher that success is a double edged sword. A lot of work to be done.

 

[Barbaroja]

Good stuff! Got any photos of the recovered Bullets or wound channels?
Very fascinating stuff, I always am interested in what my arrow or bullet has done. Always something to learn.

 

[courtgreene]

I always want to take pictures and intend to, but then when the cleaning starts I don't want to get blood from my hands on my phone.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I have nothing but praise for the factory .30-06 220 gr RNSP on elk.

Cow- One shot stop and drop at 75 yards.

5x6 Bull- One shot at 150 yards, made him very sick, second shot a 25 yards to put down and prevent going into deep timber.

All bullets lost in gut pile and not recovered.

 

[Robert]

I shot both my does with 308 150gr Federal MeatEater Trophy Copper bullets.

First shot was 320y quartering towards me. Bullet was a little too far back, holding for wind, but was still a double lung hit. Deer did a circle and went down. Then stood back up, took two steps and went down.

Second deer was shot at 82y, quartering away. Bullet took out both lungs and the top of the heart. She took off like I'd missed. She went 5 yards and collapsed down the side of the hill. Blood was EVERYWHERE. The entrance looked like an exit wound. The exit was not spectacular but the job was done.

Those 150gr Trophy Copper bullets did a fantastic job. I'd not hesitate to use them again.

 

[wombat13]

Courtgreene, was your 30-30 bullet a TSX or TTSX. I hunted for years with TSX in my .300WM and had inconsistent performance (some times excellent blood trail, some time none at all). My BIL hunted this year with the TTSX and had excellent performance.

 

[courtgreene]

Courtgreene, was your 30-30 bullet a TSX or TTSX. I hunted for years with TSX in my .300WM and had inconsistent performance (some times excellent blood trail, some time none at all). My BIL hunted this year with the TTSX and had excellent performance.

The 30-30 is the tsx for lever actions (tube mags). I’ll link to it below.
The 8mm was the ttsx (blue tip). I lean toward liking it more than the tsx, but that’s probably me projecting my love for the rifle onto the cartridge it fires. I love that gun.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010404559

 

[entropy]

Deer #6: .223 out of a savage axis. 65gr. Sierra game king. 150 yard lung shot. Entered behind the shoulder and went back at an angle through the liver. Deer ran forty yards and collapsed leaving a very light trail. Didn’t have to but put another one in its head when I got to it just because of the .223 lore. Right lung and liver were shredded. Not a very big secondary wound channel. I don’t know if the shot angle or the distance contributed most to its less than ideal performance.

This is a shot I would have passed up with the .223. Actually, with any rifle. A quartering to shot like that, as you found out, will penetrate one lung, and the liver, but this is marginal, and had that deer been in an alert state when you shot, you might not have recovered it, or recovered a deer after a long track, and with resulting poor meat.

I do agree; there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to which deer will bang-flop, and which will run. State of alert and corresponding adrenaline levels ar the closest I've come to an explanation, and even it's not 100% accurate.

I have nothing but praise for the factory .30-06 220 gr RNSP on elk.

Cow- One shot stop and drop at 75 yards.

5x6 Bull- One shot at 150 yards, made him very sick, second shot a 25 yards to put down and prevent going into deep timber.

All bullets lost in gut pile and not recovered.

A friend of my Dad's swore up and down that Winchester's .308 220 gr. RNSP was the best deer load. It worked well for him. Never lost one, they didn't go far after he hit 'em.

 

[courtgreene]

This is a shot I would have passed up with the .223. Actually, with any rifle. A quartering to shot like that, as you found out, will penetrate one lung, and the liver, but this is marginal, and had that deer been in an alert state when you shot, you might not have recovered it, or recovered a deer after a long track, and with resulting poor meat.
.

it was the first quartering towards me shot I’ve taken at such an angle. Lesson learned.

 

[horsey300]

it was the first quartering towards me shot I’ve taken at such an angle. Lesson learned.

Quartering towards= break the big bones, still doable just a different selection required. My oldest took her first deer last year on a hard quarter toward, almost straight facing, went in front of the shoulder and wreaked havoc on the inside. Your 65 should have done the trick and these days, we can't be too choosy but for our .22s we've decided on either the 50ttsx or the 62 swift, they pack a heckuva punch, and penetrate quite well through everything we've hit so far. I wanted to try the Sierras but after playing with the swifts and seeing their performance, it's not as much of a priority now.
The .30-30 tsx would be beautiful to see, thanks for sharing, now something else I have to look for!!

 

[courtgreene]

Quartering towards= break the big bones, still doable just a different selection required. My oldest took her first deer last year on a hard quarter toward, almost straight facing, went in front of the shoulder and wreaked havoc on the inside. Your 65 should have done the trick and these days, we can't be too choosy but for our .22s we've decided on either the 50ttsx or the 62 swift, they pack a heckuva punch, and penetrate quite well through everything we've hit so far. I wanted to try the Sierras but after playing with the swifts and seeing their performance, it's not as much of a priority now.
The .30-30 tsx would be beautiful to see, thanks for sharing, now something else I have to look for!!

no problem

 

[buck460XVR]

Since I have butchered my own deer for half a century, ever deer I or my party gets has been autopsied. The one thing that I have found consistent is that every shot is different and Terminal Performance varies greatly, even when using the same bullet/broadhead. Another thing I have found is that what kind of shot you thought you made, is sometimes very different than what the wound channel tells you when the animal is butchered. Far too many folks want to blame bullet performance when they don't retrieve a shot animal because they just "know" they double lunged it. I often wondered how they "know" this without retrieving the animal. Another thing I have discovered is that many times, amount of damage of the wound channel, or shot placement, does not always relate to DRT or an easy blood trail. While high velocity bullets that expand rapidly and create a lot of damage to the wound channel and may leak more blood, does not necessarily mean a quicker kill. I watched deer shot thru both lungs and the heart with a broadhead walk 20 yards like nuttin' happened and fall over, while the same shot with an ought-six and the deer runs for 70 yards like a banshee. I also found that slower moving bullets from handgun caliber carbines make a lot less mess of the meat than a higher velocity bullet from a bottle necked cartridge, while putting it down just a fast. All interesting variables, but none that will always relate to next time.

 

[courtgreene]

Since I have butchered my own deer for half a century, ever deer I or my party gets has been autopsied. The one thing that I have found consistent is that every shot is different and Terminal Performance varies greatly, even when using the same bullet/broadhead. Another thing I have found is that what kind of shot you thought you made, is sometimes very different than what the wound channel tells you when the animal is butchered. Far too many folks want to blame bullet performance when they don't retrieve a shot animal because they just "know" they double lunged it. I often wondered how they "know" this without retrieving the animal. Another thing I have discovered is that many times, amount of damage of the wound channel, or shot placement, does not always relate to DRT or an easy blood trail. While high velocity bullets that expand rapidly and create a lot of damage to the wound channel and may leak more blood, does not necessarily mean a quicker kill. I watched deer shot thru both lungs and the heart with a broadhead walk 20 yards like nuttin' happened and fall over, while the same shot with an ought-six and the deer runs for 70 yards like a banshee. I also found that slower moving bullets from handgun caliber carbines make a lot less mess of the meat than a higher velocity bullet from a bottle necked cartridge, while putting it down just a fast. All interesting variables, but none that will always relate to next time.

I believe my observations point to those same conclusions.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I concur with both of you, and my observations are from using a soft, all lead, round ball from a muzzleloader..., I have the same results although my shots have been all but one at under 100 yards. I've had the deer flop over, had them walk a short distance, and had them run about 100 yards, and these were double-lung hits with full pass through in most cases. The round ball is similar to a handgun due to velocity, but being soft lead, deforms better. I added this just to round out the data, albeit my sample is a small one.

LD

 

[earlthegoat2]

I generally will take frontal shots. This is the primary reason I use big cartridges and never anything resembling marginal.

Of the handful of deer I have taken frontal shots on, I have gotten full longitudinal pass throughs with 450 Bushmaster and 12 and 20 ga shotgun slugs both Foster and sabot. IIRC, all were DRT.

 

[Duster340]

I pretty much limit my shots to high shoulder/neck shots due to my property being relatively small @14 acres and I want an instant stop. Primary round is a 303 British loaded with Hornady interlocks push by a load of 3031. Even at the reduced velocities from the stubby 17.25" barrel, complete penetration and instant DRT kill is the norm. Never recovered a bullet, but the damages is pretty significant and the Interlocks definitely expand. Here's the interior view from the Buck I shot last week. And entrance wound on a neck shot little button I shot the following day

Be well all

 

[HowieG]

260 Remington 120 Nosler ballistic tip. Mule deer buck at 80 yards, standing, quartering away. Shot hit the last couple of ribs on the right side and exploded on contact. Basically ZERO penetration. Luckily, it dynamited the back ribs too. Pieces of rib took out the liver and the deer bled out in short order. That bullet is probably okay after it slows down in a couple of hundred yards, but NOT under a hundred yards.

 

[Random 8]

Had an interesting deer this year, touching on the quartering shot with the .223. I posted it elsewhere, but I think it's germane to this thread. Mine was a bit heavier artillery, .280 remington with a 154 Hornady RN, loaded down into the 2500fps range roughly replicating a classic 7x57 load for M93, M95 actions. Shot was quartering steeply towards with an alert, small doe for this part of the country of about 100 lbs. Bullet entered just forward of the leading shoulder blade, passing through front/center of left lung, just nicking the back of right lung, centering the liver and disrupting the paunch after passing through diaphram. Bullet ended up somewhere in the gut pile, did not penetrate far side of abdomen. Deer ran almost 100 yards with scant blood trail. Very little meat loss on this deer, but without good snow, it would have been extremely difficult to recover. Even with a heavy bullet and caliber, those quartering towards shots are tough. Tag the shoulder and you poof a lot of meat, miss the heavy bone and you may have a tough blood trail.

I try to shoot CNS at the base of the skull on such meat deer, but this was not practical as the deer was alert and "twitchy." I didn't trust the head to stay still. In my opinion, with a higher velocity and lighter cup and core, the deer would have been DRT with unacceptable meat loss. I would have preferred a tougher bullet on this deer, such as the 160 hot core or 145 Grand Slam, or perhaps a mono-metal or NP in the heavier weights. There is something to the heavy and slow bullet theory for hunting in the woods.

 

[Captcurt]

260 Remington 120 Nosler ballistic tip. Mule deer buck at 80 yards, standing, quartering away. Shot hit the last couple of ribs on the right side and exploded on contact. Basically ZERO penetration. Luckily, it dynamited the back ribs too. Pieces of rib took out the liver and the deer bled out in short order. That bullet is probably okay after it slows down in a couple of hundred yards, but NOT under a hundred yards.

This why I shoot the mid-weight Accubonds in most of my rifles. Right now I am testing the Sierra TGKs in my Creedmoor, but I will be going back to the ABs as soon as the TGKs are gone. The Sierras preform a lot like the Ballistic tips. Fast expansion and maximum upset, but they do seem to stay intact.

I shot a small doe with my 243 and the 90gr BT at about 30 yards. It totally ruined a shoulder and the right half of the ribcage. The Ballistic SilverTip seems to be a little tougher.

I used the 120gr Speer HotCor in my 260. Never had a problem with the Speers in any caliber.

 

[HowieG]

This why I shoot the mid-weight Accubonds in most of my rifles. Right now I am testing the Sierra TGKs in my Creedmoor, but I will be going back to the ABs as soon as the TGKs are gone. The Sierras preform a lot like the Ballistic tips. Fast expansion and maximum upset, but they do seem to stay intact.

I shot a small doe with my 243 and the 90gr BT at about 30 yards. It totally ruined a shoulder and the right half of the ribcage. The Ballistic SilverTip seems to be a little tougher.

I used the 120gr Speer HotCor in my 260. Never had a problem with the Speers in any caliber.

Everybody loads up like they are going to shoot deer at 500 yards, but stats show most deer are still taken at under 100. Anyway, the Nosler BT shoots very well out of my gun (Tikka T3), but I won't use it on anything but paper from now on. At the moment, I am loading the 130 Nosler AB. Tried the Barnes TTSX and the Hornady GMX, but I can't quite get those copper bullets to shoot that well in any of my guns. Ditto the Nosler Partition.

My buddy and I were out a few years back and he popped a muley broadside with a good ole fashioned cup and core 130. Bullet went in the right side, through the blood vessels on top of the heart, and left a two inch exit wound going out through the left side. Range was somewhere between 150 and 200 yards up hill (should say UP mountain). Makes me think we might be getting just a bit fancy with our new expensive bullets.

 

[courtgreene]

There’s some truth to that, but I’d rather have all these options than be in the position shooters/hunters/loaders of yesteryear were with far less options. I may have given up on nosler BTs for hunting but they’re very accurate so I still enjoy them at the range. Similarly, I may not get the best accuracy from that Barnes 30-30, but it hammers deer out of that gun (I actually started loading those for a bear hunt but never got a shot). So now I have options. Options are good, even if they leave us getting a little too clever at times.

 

[HowieG]

There’s some truth to that, but I’d rather have all these options than be in the position shooters/hunters/loaders of yesteryear were with far less options. I may have given up on nosler BTs for hunting but they’re very accurate so I still enjoy them at the range. Similarly, I may not get the best accuracy from that Barnes 30-30, but it hammers deer out of that gun (I actually started loading those for a bear hunt but never got a shot). So now I have options. Options are good, even if they leave us getting a little too clever at times.

Well, options are more fun anyway. On the other hand, the old cast lead bullets and balls rarely failed to perform if used inside their envelope which could be out to 1500 yards if Billy Dixon is considered.

 

[brewer12345]

Ah, let's see:

- mulie doe at 80 yards, hit with a cast 198 grain 30 cal bullet with a huge meplat doing 1900FPS out of the muzzle. Quartering toward shot. Bullet went through the front leg without hitting a bone, into the chest cavity, destroyed the heart, damaged both lungs, and exited through the ribs, blowing an inch sized hole through a rib. Modest secondary wound channel, but she basically did a donut and fell over dead.

- yearling white tail doe hit with a 54 round ball at 50 yards, quartering slightly towards. Hit her a little too far back and high, but took out a lung, half the liver, a kidney, and the ball exited just before the hindquarter. Ran off immediately and made it maybe 100 yards, but I heard the death throes in less than a minute after the shot. Minimal blood trail until I got to the deer, but then it looked like someone had had spilled a bucket of red paint. Not a lot of sign of a secondary channel, but with a ball of that size that expanded there really didn't need to be.

- button buck at 60 yards, 54 round ball. Texas heart shot, unfortunately, only shot I was offered after a long week. Ball entered the right rear quarter just below the hip, broke the thigh bone, traversed the entire deer and ended up in the opposite front shoulder, considerably flattened. Again, no secondary wound channel to speak of, but no need for one. Kidney, lung, some major blood vessels. Deer ran 50 yards after the shot with a good blood trail, found it piled up face first. Recovered ball started out at 230 grains and was 227 when I found it in the deer.

The challenge with black powder hunting is that immediately after the shot you can see little else but a huge cloud of smoke. On the button buck it was as if the deer vanished after I fired because it ran directly away from me on the opposite side of the smoke cloud. You get to figure out which way the deer went by tracking right away.