Surprising terminal performance, why?

[brewer12345]

Last weekend I shot a big (pushing 200 pounds live weight I believe) mulie doe at about 50 yards. I was using a handload of the Speer 180 grain bullet in a 35 Rem with chrono'd muzzle velocity of 2100 FPS. I was looking down at her and made a quick quartering shot. Bullet hit the shoulder, broke the front leg bone, entered the chest cavity, scrambled the lungs, tagged the liver, and exited low just before the guts. She made it 100 yards, but only because she was poised to run and going down a steep slope. Easy recovery, a blood trail Ray Charles could follow, and no complaints. What was weird is that the entry into the chest cavity was golf ball sized. There was no evidence of bullet fragmentation and this bullet has a reputation for being on the tough side for 35 Rem. Why would the secondary entrance wound have been so big? The bullet clearly expended most of its energy in the animal as the exit wound tracked straight and the exit wound was maybe a half inch hole.

 

[Hookeye]

Sounds like bullet deformation on the leg hit, larger frontal area when contacting chest cavity.

 

[brewer12345]

Sounds like bullet deformation on the leg hit, larger frontal area when contacting chest cavity.

I was thinking similar, but a 35 cal bullet that gets to a 2 inch or so diameter?

 

[Hookeye]

Did bullet come apart?
Or did a chunk of bone go in w the bullet?

 

[nettlle]

What were your expectations of the bullet that it failed to do?

 

[brewer12345]

Did bullet come apart?
Or did a chunk of bone go in w the bullet?

No evidence of the bullet coming apart. A chunk of bone definitely could have plowed into the cavity.

 

[brewer12345]

What were your expectations of the bullet that it failed to do?

Heh, I dunno, I guess. 35 Rem has a reputation of putting deer down without much meat damage. I was surprised at the loss of an entire quarter and massive damage to the chest cavity. LIke I said, not complaints about the ability to put the deer down, but I was not expecting as much damage.

 

[jmr40]

Some animals just don't want to die. Normally I'd not want a 180 gr bullet at 35 Rem speeds. Too fast, too much expansion and not enough penetration.

BUT... in this case it appears to have done the job. I'm thinking you just shot an animal that didn't want to give up. I've seen similar things happen with 165 gr 30-06 loads through both lungs and a 2" exit hole. Ran 100 yards and I thought I'd missed until he suddenly stopped and fell over dead. I've seen coyote heart shot that sprinted well over 100 yards. Would have never found it without a dog.

 

[horsey300]

Heh, I dunno, I guess. 35 Rem has a reputation of putting deer down without much meat damage. I was surprised at the loss of an entire quarter and massive damage to the chest cavity. LIke I said, not complaints about the ability to put the deer down, but I was not expecting as much damage.

I'd say you got exactly what I'd have expected, you shot an eatin part at north of 1600-1800 fps impact velocity and got bone, creating an even bigger hole (like what I do when I'm on the southern edge of the bullet's expansion parameters or want something down NOW). Did this with a .22-250 on a pronghorn doe a couple of years ago, my 4" fist could fit through the entrance, no exaggeration at all, was testing the bullet for toughness so 60 yards, foreleg to vitals, and got similar results. Thing is.... a light rib bone? I'd not have expected the entrance either, still decimation to the boiler room, but more of a surprise upon opening.... momentum pushing through resistance (muscle, heavier bones, etc) tends to deform the bullet, take extra matter along for the ride, and on thin skin? The "temporary stretch" tears pretty good. I'd honestly, with zero derision, say this bullet performed as it should have and if undesirable results, then a different shot placement or a different bullet are in order.

 

[brewer12345]

Some animals just don't want to die. Normally I'd not want a 180 gr bullet at 35 Rem speeds. Too fast, too much expansion and not enough penetration.

BUT... in this case it appears to have done the job. I'm thinking you just shot an animal that didn't want to give up. I've seen similar things happen with 165 gr 30-06 loads through both lungs and a 2" exit hole. Ran 100 yards and I thought I'd missed until he suddenly stopped and fell over dead. I've seen coyote heart shot that sprinted well over 100 yards. Would have never found it without a dog.

I knew right away that I had hit the doe because I found blood, hair and evidence she stumbled sideways when impacted. This was a place with no undergrowth and snow on the ground, so it was pretty easy to find her. I picked this bullet partially because it was available, partially because I am using a short 16" barrel so velocity wouldn't be that high, and partially because it is a tougher constructed bullet that people use in 358 Win and even 35 Whelen. I had a cow elk tag as well so this bullet seemed to fit the bill.

 

[brewer12345]

I'd say you got exactly what I'd have expected, you shot an eatin part at north of 1600-1800 fps impact velocity and got bone, creating an even bigger hole (like what I do when I'm on the southern edge of the bullet's expansion parameters or want something down NOW). Did this with a .22-250 on a pronghorn doe a couple of years ago, my 4" fist could fit through the entrance, no exaggeration at all, was testing the bullet for toughness so 60 yards, foreleg to vitals, and got similar results. Thing is.... a light rib bone? I'd not have expected the entrance either, still decimation to the boiler room, but more of a surprise upon opening.... momentum pushing through resistance (muscle, heavier bones, etc) tends to deform the bullet, take extra matter along for the ride, and on thin skin? The "temporary stretch" tears pretty good. I'd honestly, with zero derision, say this bullet performed as it should have and if undesirable results, then a different shot placement or a different bullet are in order.

Actually, I was over 7,000 feet elevation and my ballistic calculator suggests that the bullet at impact was doing almost 2000 FPS. The big hole was through a rib, so not just flesh tearing.

I think the bullet performed very well, actually. Would use again. I was just surprised how much damage it did. I shot a pronghorn at 75 yards a few years ago with a 350 Legend (ballistic twin of 35 Rem) and it did way less damage. Hitting the heavy leg bone must be the answer because I hit nothing big on the pronghorn.

 

[Gordon]

Ive used that bullet in my beloved 600 Remington carbine with the same results, nothing to complain frm me and it shoots as flat as a 3030 to 200 yards. I love the .35 Remington on hunting up to elk in areas where shots will certainly be under 200 yards and most likely 75 yards. The Remington 200 grain coreloktd at 2000+- fps is my favorite and does not have the massive hole of the 180 grain faster but it still makes a 3/4" hole clean thru maybe bigger going out. I shot Remington Auto loaders and 14 and 141 pumps and Marlin 336 .35 rem for 40 years before falling in love with the .35 Remington 600 carbine which can safely be loaded very hot. It is an amazing cartridge !

 

[NMachine]

I use that bullet extensively in .35 Rem, .358 Win, and 35 Whelen. It is a very well balanced bullet. It is soft enough to expand at rather pedestrian .35 Rem velocities, yet tough enough to handle speeds up to 2900 fps out of the Whelen. Don’t buy in to the sectional density preachers. This bullet penetrates fully through deer at 1800 fps. Bone hit at entry surely blew into the chest cavity of your deer making your entry quite large. It didn’t over expand so you saw your 1/2” exit hole. Use this bullet with confidence. Just stay off the shoulder if you want that meat.

 

[brewer12345]

I use that bullet extensively in .35 Rem, .358 Win, and 35 Whelen. It is a very well balanced bullet. It is soft enough to expand at rather pedestrian .35 Rem velocities, yet tough enough to handle speeds up to 2900 fps out of the Whelen. Don’t buy in to the sectional density preachers. This bullet penetrates fully through deer at 1800 fps. Bone hit at entry surely blew into the chest cavity of your deer making your entry quite large. It didn’t over expand so you saw your 1/2” exit hole. Use this bullet with confidence. Just stay off the shoulder if you want that meat.

I usually try for rib shots to minimize meat loss, but I did not have the luxury of time with this shot. I will continue to use this bullet, especially since it is quite accurate in my rifle.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I do a lot of necropsies on hogs, looking specifically at bullet terminal performance. My guess, based on the description is that is that in hitting the bone going through the shoulder, the bone splintered in all directions, hence your giant entry wound. That sounds like it was the humerus that was struck and depending on where you hit it, you may have hit a log of dense and thick bone and even if hit mid shaft, some fairly heavy bone. Then the bullet and/or bone fragments likely broke a rib or ribs going into the thoracic cavity, creating more shrapnel and cutting edges. The tumble/run down the hillside for 100 yards did nothing but tear open the wound and let the bone bits grind and cut away tissue as the animal moved.

Heh, I dunno, I guess. 35 Rem has a reputation of putting deer down without much meat damage.

There is nothing magical about 35 Rem that it will put down animals without a lot of meat damage. Of all the variables that go into that, caliber is but one of them. Impact (not muzzle) velocity is another. Bullet construction, bullet expansion type, what the bullet hits and when it hits it all come into play. If an animal dies due to not much meat damage, then is bled out, suffocated, or suffered CNS damage because the bullet didn't do a lot of expanding, but managed to hit a very vital structure (heart, artery, lungs, liver, upper CNS) without hitting much heavy bone. If you shoot two 35 Rem bullets into a carcass in similar spots with a FMJ and with a good expanding bullet, the FMJ will undoubtedly have less meat damage, and the good expanding bullet should do a lot of damage.

So getting back to my original statement, I am guessing you are using a bullet with controlled or limited expansion for your impact velocity, which might have resulted in less meat damage had you not shattered a big bone upon entry.

 

[brewer12345]

I do a lot of necropsies on hogs, looking specifically at bullet terminal performance. My guess, based on the description is that is that in hitting the bone going through the shoulder, the bone splintered in all directions, hence your giant entry wound. That sounds like it was the humerus that was struck and depending on where you hit it, you may have hit a log of dense and thick bone and even if hit mid shaft, some fairly heavy bone. Then the bullet and/or bone fragments likely broke a rib or ribs going into the thoracic cavity, creating more shrapnel and cutting edges. The tumble/run down the hillside for 100 yards did nothing but tear open the wound and let the bone bits grind and cut away tissue as the animal moved.



There is nothing magical about 35 Rem that it will put down animals without a lot of meat damage. Of all the variables that go into that, caliber is but one of them. Impact (not muzzle) velocity is another. Bullet construction, bullet expansion type, what the bullet hits and when it hits it all come into play. If an animal dies due to not much meat damage, then is bled out, suffocated, or suffered CNS damage because the bullet didn't do a lot of expanding, but managed to hit a very vital structure (heart, artery, lungs, liver, upper CNS) without hitting much heavy bone. If you shoot two 35 Rem bullets into a carcass in similar spots with a FMJ and with a good expanding bullet, the FMJ will undoubtedly have less meat damage, and the good expanding bullet should do a lot of damage.

So getting back to my original statement, I am guessing you are using a bullet with controlled or limited expansion for your impact velocity, which might have resulted in less meat damage had you not shattered a big bone upon entry.

I have seen some of your videos and I know you get to see a LOT of impact wounds, so I appreciate the perspective.

You are right, nothing magic about 35 Rem. I like it and 350 Legend for deer and the like simply because they tend to have lower impact speeds compared to 30-06 and similar cartridges and the somewhat bigger bore lets you get away with less expansion and still reliably killing the animal. Had I not hit the big bone, it sounds like damage would have been more limited.

I am hoping to get the chance to shoot another doe next month with a 6.5 Grendel load based on the 129 grain ABLR bullet. Velocity of my accuracy load is modest at just over 2200FPS, so it will be very interesting to see what terminal performance is like.

 

[Chuck R.]

That's the bullet I'm going to load in my new .358 Win, so I'm glad to hear of that kind of performance. I managed to get a couple hundred of them on sale a couple months back, so for that rifle, under the conditions I'll use it, a lifetime supply.

I like the 35s for woods guns* the same reason. Moderate impact velocities. I also find they lose less % of MV going with shorter barrels that I prefer for blinds, stands and woods rifles*

Buuut, every time I hit solid bone I get secondary fragmentation and more damage. It's just a fact of life for those kind of hits. The way I see it; there's not a lot of good meat on front shoulders, dogs have to eat too, and I figure a dead deer in the hand with a messed up shoulder beats tag soup by a long shot.

*Note: did not say "brush rifle" for fear of getting numerous dumb-azz replies stating there is no such thing

 

[brewer12345]

The way I see it; there's not a lot of good meat on front shoulders, dogs have to eat too, and I figure a dead deer in the hand with a messed up shoulder beats tag soup by a long shot.

I tend to feel the same. Some of our seasons are pretty short so I might only have a few days to fill a tag. I will pass on questionable shots (like the deer looking through a gap in the trees in muzzleloader season where I could see its head and nothing else), but otherwise if it is a legal animal and a doable shot I take it.

 

[Hookeye]

I shoot the Hornady Leverevolution 200gr factory ammo in my 760 .35 rem.
Have used that bullet in handloads too. Dunno speed, but had professional reloading company up their charge as cases were not sticking in my Contender 16.25".
These were their first trimmed cases to meet Indiana PCR spec ( pistol cartridge rifle- IN does not have a straight wall case mandate ).
The next batch was warmer

Shot a doe at 50 yards. Wanted to see bullet upset so angled it in on front shoulder (treestand, deer quartering to, deer down in creekbottom, stand on ridge).
That bullet never exited. It hit bone and never punched the diaphragm. Did dink rib on offside, or a chunk of it did. I got about half of the fragments. Wound channel was like a 1-1.5" grinder went through.

Deer hit ran 50 yards and bounced off a tree dead. Dressed 130#.

Next was 75 yarder on a buck that dressed 175#. It was shot from the ground, clipping onside shoulder at rear, and exited opp shoulder front. He went 75 and piled up.
Wound channel was nothing spectacular. Good but gee whiz, its a .35 cal at contact.

170# buck shot running away, from stand. Contact was top of hip at 40 yards. Was trying to hit him at top of shoulders/neck. That bullet plowed through a backstrap to the neck. Wiping out one whole side of backstrap. Deer dropped at the shot and took another that went top of heart. I dug in the dirt for that one and never did find it.
2nd shot wound channel was like that of prev buck. OK but nothing great.

Last buck was 180# dressed, shot was 25 yards, from a stand, front of shoulder/neck pocket. Deer dropped stone dead. Wound channel was nothing spectacular, never did find bullet. I put some effort into trying to find it. Was not in offside, so must been in the gutpile.

Reports have been the 200gr FTX doesn't expand at .35 rem speeds. I don't really think it needs to being .35 cal. However that one doe, that bullet fragmentation, was a bit startling.

Dead is dead and it seems to work pretty well for me, so it's gonna be very hard to leave the 760 at home. Have a new to me .308 and a new/never blooded .30-06.
In the woods the smaller/lighter 760, and shots being under 75 yards.......the boom instead of roar, mild recoil............yeah, the .35 rem is kinda neat.

 

[Hookeye]

With slug guns and PCR stuff, I think a shot through the vitals that also breaks a shoulder to be decent.
Ive not shot a deer yet w a hot stepping centerfire.
That may change in 2 weeks.
.308 win 150gr WW DXP in a Ruger #1.
Bought Surefire EPS earplugs to wear afield.

If its too much, will go back to my 760 for thickets and save the .308 for more open ground.

So far I really like the .35 rem, but with my limited experience I don't think Id take it for anything bigger than whitetail and even then 150 yards or under.

My hunting bud has taken three deer w .35 rem and his deer only took steps. One a 200# dressed 150". He ran the Barnes bullet in trimmed case reloads (from same commercial reloader). I have NOT used them, but this thread has me remembering, so will go to reloading shop and see if he has any.

I have reloading gear (10 yrs, not set up yet at new house LOL).
Gave away 75 or so Hornady cases, to somebody on a forum needing them.
10+ boxes of factory Hornady ammo.........last me rest of my life. But I do have some cases, and will have more after this weeks zero session (Contender 14" pistol).
Will fire a couple in the 760 to verify its where I left it from last year.

So I could end up w box and half of cases to load the Barnes in. Hornady FTX bullets for reloading did finally get put on shelf at a LGS.

I still want a stainless Ruger #1 w synth stock in .35 rem. Rifle builder says go .358 win.
Dunno about downloading .358 Win to .35 rem speeds, never looked into it.
.358 win might be a do all rig.

 

[GooseGestapo]

What you’re seeing is soft tissue damage due to secondary projectiles from bone shards blowing back. It’s common on shots such as yours.
I’m a huge .35Rem fan. Shot several dozen deer a a few pigs with it. I try for a “bone” hit such as yours when using cast bullets as I do. It greatly amplifies the tissue damage increasing the bleed out.
It’s always about shot placement!