AHSA - Change 50 BMG Policy?

[JImbothefiveth]

So let's get this all in to one: They support a ban on hollowpoints, .50 BMGs, they want another AWB(This would affect semi-auto hunting rifles, so AR's would be subject to it like he said.), they want to outlaw private sales of guns, and apparently now they consider guns for hunting the biggest animals "un-sporting".

BTW, he should know that a .50 BMG would probably not be a good choice for elephants, due to it's weight and size. But nonetheless, by his logic, .375 H&H should be outlawed, regardless of the fact it can be a good caliber for stopping bears.

 

[CoRoMo]

His argument was that there wasn't a legitimate hunting use for a 50 BMG weapon, unless you are hunting elephants.

He doesn't seem to have a complete grasp of the hunting community then.
I've come across people who do in fact hunt, at very long ranges mind you, with their .50 BMG rifles. They are actually competition shooters who also hunt elk, and found a way to combine the two. Finding and taking elk beyond 1,000 yards is extremely challenging as you could imagine. Maybe Mr. Schoenke just doesn't consider this 'legitimate' and would prefer to continue his efforts to remove that freedom from this type hunter/shooter.

 

[rbernie]

His argument was that there wasn't a legitimate hunting use for a 50 BMG weapon, unless you are hunting elephants.

Of course, the Makah tribe would disagree with Ray, but I doubt that he cares much:

In 1999 and 2000, we had a crew of 8 whalers in a 36 foot long canoe which was carved from a single cedar log. The harpooner was in the bow of the canoe and used a stainless steel harpoon mounted on a wooden shaft approximately seven feet long, connected by ropes to buoys and to the canoe. The rifleman was stationed on a chaseboat and fired a specially designed .50 caliber rifle soon after the harpoon was thrown to dispatch the whale. The configuration of this rifle achieves immediate unconsciousness and death of the whale when fired at the target area near the base of the skull. It is the most humane method that can be employed.
After the death of the whale, a Makah diver went into the water to lash the whale's jaws shut to prevent it from sinking. He also attached lines to enable the whale to be towed back to shore. The carcass was beached at one of the Makah's traditional beaches and whaling family representatives carved the blubber and meat and distributed it in accordance with traditional Makah practice.

 

[alsaqr]

I totally detest any so called hunting organization that wants more gun control. Do not drink the AHSA poisoned Kool Aid. How are we going to get the AHSA to change their position on gun control? We are not going to be able to persuade this bunch on anti-gunners to change their position.

Look at the founders of the AHSA:

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...&w=ahsa+"ah+sa"&d=LcqMqUfiSEb2&icp=1&.intl=us

Founders / Executives
While AHSA purports to be a pro-hunting, pro-conservation and pro-gun organization, its leadership and board would qualify
as a blue ribbon committee of activists who are anything but friends to the hunting, shooting sports and firearms community.
Let’s take a look at who runs this “hunters and shooters” organization:

Robert Ricker (Executive Director, AHSA) • Paid witness against the firearms industry for cases where plaintiffs attempted to hold gun manufacturers liable for the criminal misuse of their products by third parties. • Monthly salary of $3000; AHSA claims no more than 150 members who pay $25 dues. The rest of the money comes from “individual contributions” with the largest contributors on the AHSA board of directors.iv• Paid an hourly fee of $225 to $250 dollars for testimony, depositions, and meetings with the Brady Campaign.v• Consults for the Educational Fund to End Handgun Violence (the “educational” arm of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence).vi(http://www.csgv.org/) • Consults with Virginians for Public Safety (http://www.vapublicsafety.com/) (lobbying for additional restrictions on law abiding gun owners).vii

Ray Schoenke (President, AHSA) • Mr. Schoenke, his wife, his daughter and son have been generous donors of anti-gun candidates including: Al Gore, Barbara Boxer, Bill Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, Ted Kennedy, Carolyn McCarthy and John Kerry.viii• Mr. Schoenke and his wife donated $10,000 to Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) in 2000.ix• Mr. Schoenke’s daughter and son each contributed $5000 to HCI in 2000.x

John Rosenthal (President, AHSA Foundation) • Rosenthal is the leader of Stop Handgun Violence, the principal anti-gun group in the state of Massachusetts (credited with being the “political force behind the strict gun control laws of Massachusetts”xi) • Rosenthal is a former member of the HCI board of directors, now known as the Brady Campaign. • Rosenthal has most recently focused his energy on voicing opposition to firearms’ advertisements during sporting events < http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=154057>

Jody Powell (Co-Chairman, AHSA Advisory Board) • Press Secretary for one of the most anti-gun U.S. administrations, President Jimmy Carter.

Joe Vince (Board Member, AHSA) • Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) architect of the Clinton-Gore regulatory assault on the Second Amendment. • His company Crime Gun Solutions (CGS) employs a number of other ex-ATF officials including Gerard Nunziato, who told the Houston Chronicle that “If it wasn’t for criminals, there wouldn’t be a gun industry in this country.” • Crime Gun Solutions provides consulting services for the lawyers at the Brady Campaign, frequently appearing as paid expert witnesses in lawsuits against the firearms industry. i“NRA Doesn’t Represent Both Hunters and Gun Owners” (Bill Schneider, NewWest, July 21, 2006) iihttp://www.huntersandshooters.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=32 (The American Hunters and Shooters Association website)

 

[RPCVYemen]

I've come across people who do in fact hunt, at very long ranges mind you, with their .50 BMG rifles.

Many shots on elk are taken at long range and a heavy flat trajectory bullet is well suited to this sort of hunting. The moose is can be dangerous game due to size and temperament. The .50 is suitable for any of these and therefore a suitable hunting round.

Do you know of any stats on the use of 50 BMG in hunting. While the AHSA's name is Hunters and Shooters, my perspective is that they lean towards hunters - so stats on 50 BMG's used in hunting would carry a lot of wieght.

Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

so stats on 50 BMG's used in hunting would carry a lot of wieght.

Why? You posted in the other threads, multiple times, the AHSA statement that :

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed"

These 27 words protect the rights of Americans to own and use guns. The American Hunters and Shooters Association is committed to these words and the ideas and principals behind them.

Seriously, which is it? Only hunting or does the Second Amendment matter? The word hunting makes no appearance in the Second Amendment.

You are arguing it both ways and it can't work that way.

You are now discussing engaging in a debate with the guy that wrote both that statement on the Second Amendment, and the AHSA position on .50 BMG, Ray Schoenke.

Do you not have a hard time reconciling these viewpoints that run completely counter to each other?

That's what I have been asking you all along, how to you reconcile these 2 types of statements?

Even if AHSA is just about hunting, is there harm done to the environment or hunting by the continued sale of .50 BMG rifles? Of course not.

So where is the connection between being pro Second Amendment yet calling for the ban of a rifle that poses no threat to hunting or conservation yet embodies the very purpose of the Second Amendment as reaffirmed in Heller?

 

[RPCVYemen]

As an Activism Planning thread, this one is (IMO, of course) a loss unless you move out of the area of the 50cal arena and into the area of the AWB and semi-auto hunting rifles. In that area, the AHSA position is far less clear and not terribly linear.

Since the AHSA page says absolutely nothing about support for an AWB or new regulations on semi-auto hunting rifles, and Mr. Schoenke expressed his opposition to an AWB, I don't see much to advocate for. He already agrees with me on this one.

Note that it is not the AHSA that says they are for a AWB - it's folks who are opposed the AHSA.

So am I supposed to ask, "You told me that you are opposed to an AWB, but some NRA advocates I know say you are lying. Are you sure that you are not lying? Are you really, really sure you're not lying?"

I would prefer to focus my efforts on overturning a publicly stated policy with which I disagree.

Mike

 

[Fburgtx]

Hey Mike,
I'll ask you for some stats! Any stats on how many gun ranges the AHSA has donated money to in order to help build/maintain facilities??? Any stats on how many youth education shooting programs the AHSA has??? Any stats on how many pro-gun bills have been introduced by Obama (AHSA has an offer of a "Pro-gun/Pro-Obama" bumper sticker on their website) during his time as a state or U.S. Senator (or for that matter, how many pro-gun bills has he voted in favor of??)???

Any idea where I can get an AHSA magazine??? (Oh, they don't have one???)Any chance you could show us what an AHSA membership card looks like???

You can talk all you want, but you're going to have a hard time convincing most folks that an organization made up of members/former members of HCI/Brady/etc. are anything more than a "media front" attempting to betray the rights of gun owners.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Since the AHSA page says absolutely nothing about support for an AWB or new regulations on semi-auto hunting rifles,

It did on July 1st, 2006.

Mr. Schoenke expressed his opposition to an AWB,

No, he didn't. He said he didn't want AR-15s regulated more than semi-auto hunting rifles. Under an AWB, semi-auto hunting rifles also have to obey the rules about no bayonets, pistol grips, or magazines holding more than 10 rounds, just like AR-15s. He didn't voice any opposition at all.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

for that matter, how many pro-gun bills has he voted in favor of??)???

I believe it's one, and only one. He once showed his support for a complete hnadgun ban.

 

[rbernie]

So am I supposed to ask, "You told me that you are opposed to an AWB, but some NRA advocates I know say you are lying. Are you sure that you are not lying? Are you really, really sure you're not lying?"

Now you're being silly to the point of rudeness.

I am not an NRA advocate, first and foremost. I am a gun owner. If you wish to paint me with what you consider perjorative labels, at least pick the correct brush and palette.

You stated that Ray's position equated 'assault weapons' with semi auto hunting rifles. I accept that. What is unstated in that is Ray's position on potential limitations WRT semi auto hunting rifles.

I did not ask:

You told me that you are opposed to an AWB, but some NRA advocates I know say you are lying. Are you sure that you are not lying? Are you really, really sure you're not lying?

I asked:

whether the AHSA supports any Federal or state restrictions on the manufacture or sale or ownership of semiautomatic 'hunting' rifles other than those restrictions that currently exist

No reasonable person can intuit the former from the latter. Your tap dancing around a basic simple and non-leading question is bordering on intellectual fraud.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

is bordering on intellectual fraud.

AHSA's already crossed that border, he's here to defend them.

As said before, an "assault weapons" ban would also regulate semi-automatic hunting rifles just like AR-15s, by not allowing them pistol grips and bayonets, or magazines with more than 10 round capacity.

 

[TexasRifleman]

is bordering on intellectual fraud.

Yes, and it's repeated in these threads, which is why I have questioned the nature of the relationship between the OP and AHSA.

This doublespeak is familiar.

 

[RPCVYemen]

So where is the connection between being pro Second Amendment yet calling for the ban of a rifle that poses no threat to hunting or conservation yet embodies the very purpose of the Second Amendment as reaffirmed in Heller?

Is this line of argument in any way related to a discussion of how to get AHSA to drop their support for a policy to classify 50 BMG weapons as NFA weapons?

Mike

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Yes, and it's repeated in these threads, which is why I have questioned the nature of the relationship between the OP and AHSA.

This doublespeak is familiar

He won't answer simple questions and keeps ignoring facts. I believe that his real goal is to convince us that anti-gun Brady campaign endorsed liberals are better than pro-gun NRA endorsed conservatives.

Is this line of argument in any way related to a discussion of how to get AHSA to drop their support for a policy to classify 50 BMG weapons as NFA weapons?

Yes it is, you could point out to them their faulty logic. (Although I'm not sure I agree that the .50 rifle "embodies the second amendment's purpose as confirmed by the Heller case." )

 

[TexasRifleman]

Is this line of argument in any way related to a discussion of how to get AHSA to drop their support for a policy to classify 50 BMG weapons as NFA weapons?

Of course it is. It's to question AHSA on why their position exists in the first place.

Do you know WHY the current position is as stated or does that not matter to you?

If you don't know WHY they are against the .50 in the first place how exactly do you expect to change any opinions?

That you don't want to answer the question is irrelevant.

Would you not think it important to learn why someone thinks the way they do if you want to change their mind?

If I were making the argument to AHSA that's exactly how I would approach it.

All you seem to be looking for is crime statistics or other random facts about the .50. That's not how any opinions will change, since those facts are already known by pretty much everyone.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

If you don't know WHY they are against the .50 in the first place how exactly do you expect to change any opinions?

I don't think he wants to admit why.

 

[RPCVYemen]

whether the AHSA supports any Federal or state restrictions on the manufacture or sale or ownership of semiautomatic 'hunting' rifles other than those restrictions that currently exist

Since the public web site does not express any such support, and Mr. Schoenke has told me that he is opposed to an AWB, exactly what are you asking me to advocate?

Am I supposed to advocate for a position that he (and presumably the AHSA) already support?

Mike

 

[rbernie]

Is this line of argument in any way related to a discussion of how to get AHSA to drop their support for a policy to classify 50 BMG weapons as NFA weapons?

I tried that, by giving you an example of a valid hunting use of a 50BMG, and you ignored it in favor of ridiculing my questions WRT the AHSA stance on semiautomatic hunting rifles in general.

Your call, homie, but you're not doing a particularly good job of picking a subject and sticking to it and all the while fussing at us for not sticking to your chosen subject.

Since the public web site does not express any such support, and Mr. Schoenke has told me that he is opposed to an AWB, exactly what are you asking me to advocate?

You can read the words I wrote and glean the intended message, if you want to. If you do not want to, nothing I say will help you. The fact that you choose not to accept them renders my effort irrelevant no matter how many times I try.

You have demonstrated a complete inability to discuss and debate in good faith or with any intellectual honesty. You have no agenda for positive RKBA activism. You wish only to hold up AHSA, and proclaim their utility and goodness.

It doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[RPCVYemen]

I don't think he wants to admit why.

The reason stated on the AHSA website is the GOA report - that's why I would like more info.

Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

What is AHSA's position on the .510 DTC EUROP or "50 DTC" as it's commonly known?

What is it about the .50BMG that is special?

The .510 DTC EUROP is a fraction of an inch shorter but has almost exactly the same ballistic characteristics. It would remain legal under a .50 BMG ban.

It was introduced in Europe after several countries there banned the .50BMG. It's moving into California now that that state has banned .50BMG as well.
Serbu is making one, others will follow.

What will the new AHSA position be on that? Banning of all rifle calibers of .50 or larger? If you do that you get the .600 Nitro and others which are the epitome of hunting rounds, in the great tradition of the double rifle.

It's this kind of thing that is the problem. Calling for bans on certain classes of firearms just causes the shooting industry to become creative and come up with alternatives. Then these groups try to ban the alternatives and the next thing you know you are back to only allowing .38 specials and 20 gauge shotguns.

It is for this reason, not any argument of hunting etc, that any organization that holds itself out to be pro Second Amendment cannot call for any ban on any class of firearm and remain true to their supposed goal of protecting the Second Amendment.

 

[feedthehogs]

AHSA is a front for gun control by people who have no concept of the second amendment.

Why expend one ounce of breath trying to convince their supporters otherwise?

Its like trying to get a 3 year old kid to make their bed, take out the trash and put their toys away. It ain't gonna happen no matter how much you talk.

Watch for political activities and report them to the IRS.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Since the public web site does not express any such support

It did in 2006. Remember the website is archived.

Mr. Schoenke has told me that he is opposed to an AWB

Your tap dancing is almost as good as Sammy Davis jr.'s.

He did not say he was opposed to one, unless he did so while the signal was breaking up. He said he wouldn't want the AR-15 regulated in a way that wouldn't also regulate other semi-automatic rifles. By what he said, another AWB would be fine, since the AR-15 wouldn't be regulated beyond the 10 round magazine limit, etc, that other semi-automatics would have to conform to. Remember, during the last AWB there were AR-15s made that were ban-legal, they didn't have too many non-Hillary-approved features and didn't have magazines with more than 10 round capacity.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Why expend one ounce of breath trying to convince their supporters otherwise?

Because someone needs to make sure their story is countered otherwise other people may start to believe this nonsense.

If AHSA and other groups can't answer the relatively softball questions like those here in this thread can they really be taken seriously?

ETA: Make no mistake, these guys have learned well through trial and error about what works and what doesn't. The AHSA makes a very compelling arument to the uninformed gun owner. It all sounds warm and fuzzy on the surface.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

If Mr. Schoenke and the AHSA oppose an AWB, why wouldn't they say that on their website, and why did they support one in 2006. (You know, before presidential campaigning started.)

Why expend one ounce of breath trying to convince their supporters otherwise?

Because someone needs to make sure their story is countered otherwise other people may start to believe this nonsense

+1

Oh, and another question from the previous thread that he didn't answer: If the AHSA is so pro-gun, why would the NRA attack them, but not the GOA, etc?