AK-47 vs. M-1 Carbine

[wallysparx]

forgive me if i'm missing something here, but if the only thing the carbine doesn't have going for it is the cartridge, then why haven't we ever seen anyone redesign the m1 carbine to fire 5.56 or 7.62x39?

 

[30Cal]

forgive me if i'm missing something here, but if the only thing the carbine doesn't have going for it is the cartridge, then why haven't we ever seen anyone redesign the m1 carbine to fire 5.56 or 7.62x39?

There's the mini14 & the mini30.

Ty

 

[Dr.Rob]

To quote a Russian engineer... yes but our rifle is also a club!

A close range rifle doesn't need a peep sight. Or a bayonet. In spite of this the Carbine saw use in cqb all over the globe.

The AK fires a hotter round that goes through more stuff. Good if you are shooting bad guys behind walls/desks/furniture... not so good if you don't want to shoot through things.

The carbine weighs less, isn't banned as often as the AK and with proper bullets it's better than almost any handgun available.

 

[beerslurpy]

Well if they ever get around to banning my AK and taking it away, I'll be sure to give the M1 carbine a peek if I cant get ahold of an SKS or an SU16 or a Saiga or winchester defender or a garand or a mosin nagant or a fal or a k31 etc.

The M1 carb has always seemed like a great plinker, but it isnt really high on my list of military guns I want to acquire. It is too close to the 10/22 to be a good manstopper and too close to the AK to be a great squirrel gun.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Well if they ever get around to banning my AK and taking it away, I'll be sure to give the M1 carbine a peek if I cant get ahold of an SKS or an SU16 or a Saiga or winchester defender or a garand or a mosin nagant or a fal or a k31 etc.

The M1 carb has always seemed like a great plinker, but it isnt really high on my list of military guns I want to acquire. It is too close to the 10/22 to be a good manstopper and too close to the AK to be a great squirrel gun.

That's an exaggeration. The .30 Carbine is plenty powerful to stop a fight at close range, and is adequate out to 300 yards, equaling the velocity of a point blank 9mm way out there, with superior sectional density for superior penetrative power.

 

[DMK]

The carbine - a real one that is - is a lot handier than the AK type. The AK has all the ergonomics of a stick of firewood, imho. A better cartridge, but not much good for carrying in vehicles, etc. YMMV

i dont know what the length of a folded ak is but my m1 carbine would be 26 or 27 inches long if i still owned a folding pistol grip stock for it. so the argument that the carbine is shorter and easier to maneuver in kinda bunk.

SAR1 AK with folded stock (and no muzzle device) = 26.5"
With stock extended = 35.5" (same length as a full stock M1 carbine)
Weight (with no ammo): 7lbs (two pounds heavier than the carbine)

I think it's a tie for compactness, but the M1 is lighter and has better ergonomics.

 

[georgeduz]

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

 

[ChevellRCR]

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

I forsee a rough thread ahead.

 

[rustymaggot]

SAR1 AK with folded stock (and no muzzle device) = 26.5"
With stock extended = 35.5" (same length as a full stock M1 carbine)
Weight (with no ammo): 7lbs (two pounds heavier than the carbine)

I think it's a tie for compactness, but the M1 is lighter and has better ergonomics.

a 30 round mag for the m1 carbine is much smaller than a ak mag. i assume lighter when loaded but i dont know the weight of a loaded ak mag. m1 mags, you can easilly fit 2 in each back pocket. you gotta have a big pair of pants to do that with ak mags.

i agree, compactness is a tie, or close enough to just call it one at any rate.

 

[USSR]

Tha M-1 carbine with it's little 30 cal round had some serious penetration problems when used by the military in Korea, it would not always go through the heavy winter clothes used by the enemy. That would be enough reason for me.

The "heavy" winter coats worn by the Chinese are the same that were worn by the Soviets in WW2. They are called Telogreika (see photo below).

Although I sell these coats, I would be happy to donate one free of charge to anyone who would like to play Superman and wear one while attemping to stop a speeding .30 Carbine bullet. My money is on the bullet.

Don

 

[rustymaggot]

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

altho i am a big m1 carbine fan, i have to say that you might have missed the question, or how the question was posed. debate is for the better close quarters and home defense gun. the marginal accuracy of the ak doesnt matter at the ranges we are discussing. ak is reliable, has a good cartrige, and is cheap. cheap is great if it works, and the ak47 works.

personally i like the sks better than the ak, but only because of the feel to it. if the sks that took ak mags were legal here in california id have one of those. instead i have a russian sks and my sks is almost as accurate as my m1 carbine and much more accurate at longer distance. ive been told that my sks is a sniper edition. has all black parts, longer barrel, and has a barrel stamp rating of '2'. the lower the better with russian sks rating system. mine is quite accurate. but not in my hands, i have bad eyes, hehehehe. im not bad if im wearin my glasses.

 

[beerslurpy]

Considering how cold it was in korea, I really doubt the chinese were only wearing one layer. My bet would be on multiple layers with the outermost being soaked and cold. Add in reduced velocity from the severe cold and you might have inadequate penetration. The gangsters of the 30s were wearing silk/cotton vests that would stop 38 and 45 caliber slugs a decent percent of the time, and those werent that bulky.

Then again, the chinese might have been wearing only one layer- they would probably be so numb that they wouldnt feel getting shot.

 

[DMK]

a 30 round mag for the m1 carbine is much smaller than a ak mag. i assume lighter when loaded but i dont know the weight of a loaded ak mag. m1 mags, you can easilly fit 2 in each back pocket. you gotta have a big pair of pants to do that with ak mags.

i agree, compactness is a tie, or close enough to just call it one at any rate.

True. The 30 round AK mags are pretty large, heavy and awkward. The Bulgarian Waffle mags are a little lighter, but personally I prefer the Hungarian 20 round mags. However, they still aren't as light or compact as M1 carbine mags, or even AR/M16 mags for that matter.

 

[Frandy]

Anyone here want to break into my house at night and face my M-1 Carbine as they stand 15-20 feet away?

Self defense in the home? Though I also have a 12-gauge and pistols loaded, I would feel quite protected with my Carbine. Quite!

 

[Ash]

And the M1 Carbine has greater penetration than any of the Chinese/Soviet subguns based on the 7.62x25.

Ash

 

[Destructo6]

IMO, the M1 Carbine is no more than its original design requirements: a little better than a pistol.

I don't really see superiority of the M1's ergonomics, either. Mag changes require a finger and a hand, the AK a hand. The carbine's safety isn't any better, either: neither are quick, like an AR or Garand.

The cost of purchase and feeding also gives the nod to the AK. To me, it's not a fair comparison.

 

[444]

"Mag changes require a finger and a hand, the AK a hand. The carbine's safety isn't any better, either: neither are quick, like an AR or Garand."

You are missing a couple things here. The mag change isn't about how many fingers or hands it takes to do a mag change. Mag changes are time critical, not hand critical. With the carbine, you can eject a used magazine AT THE SAME TIME as you are grabbing a fresh magazine with your other hand. Mag changes can be done quicker with the carbine than with an AK given equal amount of experience between the two operators. This means less time the gun is down and out of the fight. That is ALWAYS good. By the same token, being able to do a mag change while keeping your firing hand on the weapon in a good firing position is always a good thing.

Any time you can have your firing side hand remain on the weapon in a proper firing postion, this is good. It is always better than having to move your hand from it's correct firing position in order to perform a function on the weapon. If you can move the safety from safe to fire or from fire to safe while maintaining a good firing position: this is ALWAYS better.

 

[roscoe]

forgive me if i'm missing something here, but if the only thing the carbine doesn't have going for it is the cartridge, then why haven't we ever seen anyone redesign the m1 carbine to fire 5.56 or 7.62x39?

Check out the .22 Johnson Spitfire conversion.

Also, all this talk about heavy winter clothing - check out the Box O' Truth.

 

[glockamolee]

Which One??

The carbine is MUCH MORE PC than the AK.
The AK is more reliable and fires a more powerful cartridge


New Orleans or other anarchy situation would call for an AK.

Home defense involving police, neighbors, and media calls for the M1 Carbine. Did I mention the media and the anti-gun neighbor??

Ok then.

 

[NineseveN]

That's a close call. The M1 is a lot handier, but it is not always as completely reliable and rugged as the AK. They can be picky about magazines, which the AK is not. M1s are also a bit harder to maintain. If lightweight is your first priority, the M1 would be the pick. If not, then the AK.

As for the rounds, the M1 is unfairly criticized. The reason for reported failures to stop charges in Korea was almost certainly due to bullet placement. Because of the bulky quilted winter clothes worn by the communists, what might have seemed like a direct hit to the torso could easily have been a superficial grazing or a clean miss. No way any conceivable amount of quilting in winter clothing is going to significantly interfere with a 110 grain .30 caliber FMJ bullet traveling at well over a thousand feet per second all the way out to its intended practical range of 300 yards. Come on, now. At 300 yards, it's traveling as fast as a 9mm at point blank range, and that's with a far superior ballistic coefficient and sectional density.

I believe the problems were from the M2/M3, not the M1. The M2/M3 were the select fire versions of the M1, and they had feeding issues and my guess is that soldiers were missing completely with FA fire, it wasn't the round that was lacking, it was basic fire control. I could be wrong though, it's late and I don't think so good right about now...

 

[NineseveN]

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

Wrong.

Next.

 

[yonderway]

The AK without question! Tha M-1 carbine with it's little 30 cal round had some serious penetration problems when used by the military in Korea, it would not always go through the heavy winter clothes used by the enemy. That would be enough reason for me.

That is a commonly repeated myth that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Just for giggles, this is less scientific, but check out how the old M1 Carbine held up in the Box of Truth.

I'll be moving to NC in early 2006 to a country woodlot where I can set up a shooting range in my back yard. I'll be in a better position to do some more conclusive tests myself.

 

[yonderway]

personally i like the sks better than the ak, but only because of the feel to it.

Your average SKS will be a little more accurate, and also try firing that AK from a prone unsupported position. Try the same thing with an SKS. Also try carring 210 rounds in AK mags vs. stripper clips on a "chinese bra" for the SKS.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

My personal preference would be the AK cause I have more experience with it and I trust it. I shoot left handed so the ergonomics improve a lot for me. I can drop a mag, manipulate the safety, and operate the charging handle all without moving my firing hand. If I wasn't in a rural setting and had more reason to be concerned about penetration, I would test some soft points and various vamint bullets and load up a couple mags for defense. Since I am not, standard 122 gr Wolf FMJ do the trick. My experience shows that they actually flatten and deform quite well in a liquid medium. Noise may be an issue but not a huge one. My AK doesn't seem to have the sharp crack of my dad's Mini-14. Neither would be friendly in doors, but given my familiarity in the system and the round's better performance, I think the AK's advanatages outweigh its disadvantages. If I have to secure the homestead by moving outside, or I find myself in total anarchy, I know the AK has a bigger comparative "uummph" advantage as ranges increase. A 300 yards a Winchester 123 gr SP that leaves the muzzle at 2365 fps maintains 1465 fps for 586 fpe. A 110 gr hollow SP for the .30 Carbine leaves the muzzle at 1990 fps but reaches 300 yards with only 1035 fps and 262 fpe. This means the AK carries an expanding projectile of slightly heavier mass and comparible diameter to 300 yards with nearly twice the energy and 50% velocity to aid in bullet expansion. Not sure about the .30 Carbine, but the AK is accurate enough to put these rounds COM at that range as well. Indoors, the point may be moot but it never hurts to plan beyond the ordinary.

The AK is probably easier to add aftermarket sights to as well. I have Mojo ghost rings on my AK. And in addition to a side mount plate, foreward quad rails by Ultimak and Krebs, among others, make it very easy to add Scout scopes and reflex/red dot sights. This also makes it easier to put a weapon light on the AK as well as a vertical foregrip.

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

By "tight group" are you insinuating that a controlled pair to the upper thoratic cavity is insufficient? Or perhaps that 4 to 5 MOA from a $320 rifle with atrocious trigger slap and crappy sights isn't sufficient to get the job done? Or that by spending a little time on the trigger components or spending $40 on aftermarket parts as well as $40 for improved sights and $20 for a more ergonomic pistol grip to get a ~$400 rifle that shoots the heck out of gallon water jugs at 150 yards with me behind it is simply scrap metal? Tell me, Dear Sir, what good is hitting "ur targets at long range" if your .22 caliber bullet fails to noticeably expand, fragment, deform, or tumble much past 200 yards? Now many targets to you think you're going to hit at any range if I put two in your chest with my $400 rifle while you're running SPORTS on your $800 rifle? The topic at hand, I believe, related directly to CQB. How much accuracy to you need to put metal COM across a room or street?
Why not use an AR-15? Maybe because some people find your selection of rifles to be an overrated abomination that craps where it eats and requires more maintenence than should be expected of a combat arm...or simply because some of us are still uncomfortable with the idea of using a cartridge that is commercially commonly restricted to varmint use in defense of life and limb against nature's most violent predator. Some of us find it sad that the best thing to be said about our current military rifle is that it is accurate enough to make a dandy poodle shooter or competition rig. Or maybe just because if everyone used the same rifle, the world would be boring and there would be nothing left for us to argue about on Internet chat rooms. Take your pick. Just don't blatantly attack someone else's choice with little or no supporting evidence while simulateously butchering our language and expect not you have your own choices submitted to open criticism.

 

[rustymaggot]

Your average SKS will be a little more accurate, and also try firing that AK from a prone unsupported position. Try the same thing with an SKS. Also try carring 210 rounds in AK mags vs. stripper clips on a "chinese bra" for the SKS.

if i need 210 rounds for home defense, then im in it pretty deep.