AK-47 vs. M-1 Carbine

[Lone_Gunman]

The M1 Carbine has always suffered from the fact that its detractors don't understand why it was developed, and what its purpose is supposed to be.

The carbine was never intended to compete with medium or high powered rifles. It was intended to provide troops who were not primarily riflemen with a weapon easier to use and more accurate than the 1911. At now point in its development was power really a consideration. It was never intended to be used as a replacement of more powerful rifles.

The AK was designed with a different set of goals. It uses a medium powered rifle cartridge (inarguably more powerful than the M1 Carbine), and was designed as the primary weapon of the peasant army of the Soviet Union.

Asking the question "AK versus M1 carbine" is a bit unfair. It would be similar to asking which is better, 357 mag versus 380. The answer to the question depends on how you intend to use it. The AK is the more versatile weapon, and for a full scale SHTF scenario would be the better choice. But for home defense under usual circumstances, it would be hard to convince me that the M1 Carbine is a poor choice.

 

[benEzra]

the m1 because ak,s are crap ,they should send them all back.why dont u just use an ar15.but if u like to keep on missing ur targets at long range than please buy an ak.they cant keep a tight group at 100 yards,they are nothing but scrap metal.

And living in New Jersey, do you know this from personal experience, or secondhand?

I own a SAR-1. It will stay on a pie plate at 200 yards. The fact that it won't shoot a 2" group at 200 doesn't mean it's "scrap metal."

I'd like to own an AR, but can't afford one due to my 6-year-old son's medical bills (we're at >$1 million total bills and >$50,000 out of pocket so far, with more open-hearts to go). If you'd like to send me the money to buy one, I'd add a RRA 16" to my gun safe tomorrow.

The carbine is MUCH MORE PC than the AK.

(snip)

Home defense involving police, neighbors, and media calls for the M1 Carbine. Did I mention the media and the anti-gun neighbor??

The M1 carbine is now considered an "assault weapon" by the prohibitionists at the same level as my SAR-1. Check out S.1431/H.R. 2038 last session, or McCarthy's 2005 bill; the M1 carbine is banned by name. The M1 is slightly more PC due to the wooden stock, but on the other hand an M1 can be accurately described by a zealot prosecutor as a "weapon of war." So that may be a slight advantage of the carbine, but not by much.

Your average SKS will be a little more accurate, and also try firing that AK from a prone unsupported position. Try the same thing with an SKS.

As far as using an AK lookalike while shooting prone, if you limit yourself to 10-round magazines like the SKS, you can shoot an AK prone also. Even the AK Hungarian 20-round mags let you get lower than with a 30, though I don't see that as being necessary in a HD situation where I live.

 

[Hollowdweller]

I can shoot my M1 in a variety of light conditions at a higher rate of fire and more accurately than almost any other military style gun I have shot. I like that with the clipping 2 30's clip and the belt stock you can carry 90 rounds on the gun.

 

[yonderway]

if i need 210 rounds for home defense, then im in it pretty deep.

There is precedent for this.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There is precedent for this.

Good point.

 

[BOBK48]

AK-47 or M1 carbine?

I've owned both. My answer is whichever one is handy when I need it. I owned a carbine for many years and am quite familiar with them. I also have a SAR1 which is now banned in my state as of May 2002.

Between the 2 my carbine was more accurate. But that's just paper targets. As I have not been in combat or had to use a weapon in self defence. I think both would work with the edge going to the Ak firing an more powerfull round.

 

[antarti]

The .30 Carbine cartridge is totally inadequate and no matter how sweet the actual gun itself is, I can't get past the fact that the cartridge is a POS.

Having actually shot and downed pigs (not Javelina, boar) with a little carbine loaded with softpoints (only took 1 to do it), I think you fail to understand what the carbine can do with either old mil-ball or modern softpoints.

Having (owning and shooting) both AK and M1 carbine, I would prefer the carbine for all indoor encounters, or ones that might require any sort of room clearing. It will perforate any wall/window anybody is going to use for cover, is far handier, mags are lighter and quicker to change, non-existant recoil, etc. The .30 carbine will out-penetrate a .223 against common construction materials in ball form. I doubt the softpoint is going to be slowed by wallboard much, but the studs are a different story.

Both AK and carbine are trustworthy (and just plain WORTHY, in all respects) light rifles, neither is an MBR by any stretch. Out in the woods only?? then AK for its better (but still not MBR-like) barrier penetration since trees are good cover. Either will make whomever catches one out to 300 or so wish (probably posthumously) they had stayed in bed that morning.

 

[444]

"I think you fail to understand what the carbine can do with either old mil-ball or modern softpoints."

No, I think I have a pretty good idea.
I think that many people on this thread fail to understand what I am saying. I am saying that it's performance is very similar to a .357 handgun using light bullets. Is a .357 handgun effective against humans ? Certainly. What about game animals ? Sure it is. If you want an interesting read, research the hunting down by Col. Wesson before the debut of the .357 Registered Magnum by S&W. The shot all manner of North American big game: elk, and I am pretty sure he even took some of the big bears.
So, if I knew that Col. Wesson downed elk and grizzly bear with a .357 handgun, should I be impressed that you killed a boar with a .30 Carbine ? No.
The fact that the .30 Carbine has killed humans or animals isn't the issue. Both humans and all manner of animals including some of the biggest on earth have been killed with .22 long rifle. Does that mean the .22 long rifle is something I would recommend for self defense or for hunting big game animals ? Hell no. Will it work ? It might. Can people post examples of where it did work ? Sure. Does this now make it a good choice ? Not at all.
I know the .30 carbine can and has killed animals as well as people. That wasn't the question. The question asked which I would rather have and why ?

 

[antarti]

That wasn't the question. The question asked which I would rather have and why ?

Sorry, I thought the question was:

What is your opinion on which rifle is superior for self defense/CQB purposes, the AK-47 or the M-1 Carbine? Why?

Edit: too LOUD

 

[.50DE]

I have both caliber

weapons and like them both. However, for self defense, I prefer the third pic

 

[Destructo6]

With the carbine, you can eject a used magazine AT THE SAME TIME as you are grabbing a fresh magazine with your other hand. Mag changes can be done quicker with the carbine than with an AK given equal amount of experience between the two operators. This means less time the gun is down and out of the fight. That is ALWAYS good. By the same token, being able to do a mag change while keeping your firing hand on the weapon in a good firing position is always a good thing.

I disagree. The AK takes a different method to change magazines, but I do not believe it takes longer. You rock the empty forward and the full back: it's not a complex movement. BTW, why would you take your firing hand off the AK's pistol grip while changing magazines?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

The M1 Carbine may be faster in mag changes if you're dropping your empties but if you're keeping them, then I think they are pretty even. Then again, I have no real experience with the M1 Carbine so I could be mistaken. I can pull the mag out of an AK with my support hand in less time than it takes to describe it. Then it is a matter of putting the empty mag in a pouch or pocket, grabbing a fresh mag, and rocking it in.

I still agree with some others on here when I say the M1 Carbine may be adequate for most situations but I don't see too much of an advantage choosing a rifle chambered for what is essentially a pistol cartridge over a serious, though admittedly intermediate powered rifle round.

 

[444]

MTMilitiaman, you got it. If you are doing a speed reload, or an emergency reload or whatever you want to call it, you have to remove the magazine from the weapon and drop it. Then you have to get another magazine and rock it into place.
With the carbine, you can use your trigger finger to punch out the old magazine at the same time as you are reaching for a new one.
At this point, the carbine's bolt is locked to the rear and you can release the bolt with your weak side hand. With the AK, you CAN run the action with your weak side hand, but it is much more comfortable to run it with your stong side hand since the bolt handle is on that side of the weapon and the bolt is not locked back.

If you are doing a tac load, the carbine's magazine is smaller and you can change mags like a pistol. You can grab a new magazine , put you had under the old magazine, punch the magazine out to your palm, pivot your palm so that you are grasping the old magazine between your pinkie and fouth finger while you are inserting a new one.
With the AK, it takes one hand to release the mag/hold the mag/and stow the mag, then you can get a new one and insert it.

As always, this is just my view of things and my opinion. If you don't agree I would appreciate the education.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay forgive my lack of experience with the Carbine but is the mag release ambi? If not then the Carbine's ergonomic advantage may be largely negated for me as a lefty.

I shoot left handed so I can keep my firing hand in place and manipulate all the controls on the AK with my right hand, which conincidentially is still my strong hand since I am right handed but left eye dominant. With the tab style mag release, I find it very easy to push the tab with my right thumb and pull the mag out with the rest of my fingers. If you have big enough hands, and I do, it is faster to grab the fresh mag and bring it up beside the empty, thumb the lever and flick the empty out of the magwell, and rock the fresh into place. I'll admit it was this conversation that got me thinking and I just thought that up. I just tried it a couple times with my WASR and a couple empty steel 30 round mags. I was a little bit clumsy doing it but with practice you could be pretty quick. That is not to say other designs, perhaps even including the M1 Carbine, are not faster. But with smart training the disadvantages of the AK can be minimized and I still feel the added power afforded by its cartridge, the ease of sighting options, and the design's inheriant reliability and durability make it the more versitile option, if not simply the best in this case. I think I stand with you when I say that if I am upgrading from a pistol to a long arm, I want my long arm to give me an appreciable advantage in firepower over my pistol. I just don't see that in the M1 Carbine.

 

[444]

This is a good reason to have Mag-puls on your magazines. When you are working with the larger rifle magazines (larger than pistol magazines). You can grab a fresh magazine, put your pinky through the magpul and release the mag from the gun. The mag is now hanging on your pinky allowing you to use your other four fingers and hand to seat the fresh mag. Actually, I don't know about this: I have never tried it with anything other than an AR. I guess maybe you couldn't put your pinky through the magpul and still reach the mag release ?? I am at work and can't try it. It works great on an AR, but on the AR you have a mag release button that you operate with your firing side index finger.
The carbine mags are not much larger than pistol mags and you can manipulate them with one hand just like pistol mags.

 

[DMK]

With the AK, you CAN run the action with your weak side hand, but it is much more comfortable to run it with your stong side hand since the bolt handle is on that side of the weapon and the bolt is not locked back.

That's not a huge drawback. You hold the PG in your right hand, rotate the weapon to the left about 45 degrees, reach over the top, pull the bolt all the way back, then release. If you're left handed, you do it the way MTMilitiaman describes.

With the AK, it takes one hand to release the mag/hold the mag/and stow the mag, then you can get a new one and insert it.

That's the biggest drawback. The problem is with the paddle mag release and the fact that the mags have to be rocked in to lock. The release can't be reached with the firing hand to drop an empty mag while you retrieve a full one with the off hand. If you are doing a tac reload (which is even more important with the AK due to lack of bolt hold back on last round), you need your full hand to grab the mag and rock it while you thumb the release. It's difficult to manipulate two mags at the same time with the AK mag latch. Even Magpuls don't help a heck of a lot due to the action of rocking the mags in or out.

 

[444]

"You hold the PG in your right hand, rotate the weapon to the left about 45 degrees, reach over the top, pull the bolt all the way back, then release."

I realize that it certainly can be done that way. But, it isn't ideal. But, then again we arn't talking about the ideal way to design a rifle: that is the way it is, and your method is the only method I know of dealing with it. The problem with having the charging handle on the strong side of the gun is that you are reaching over the gun, if you want to run the gun with your weak hand. This presents several problems. First of all, if you have the rifle at the ready position, your support side arm is blocking your vision of the target when you are running the action. Second, if you are trying to clear a malfunction, the ejected case could bounce off your arm and back into the action. Third, when clearing a complicated malfunction: type II, or III, it would be nice to be able to visualize the chamber when you are clearing it to see if the failure to eject or the feedway stoppage has been cleared by your actions. But, there is nothing that can be done about it.
The bolt handle on the right, and the paddle type mag release are certainly a feature of many popular rifles and certainly arn't limited to the AK>

 

[MCgunner]

Get an SKS paratrooper carbine, handier than the AK, but same cartridge.

Really, the M1 Carbine shoots a pistol load, a weak one at that. It's got velocity, but not much bullet. With expanding bullets, it should stop as well as a .45ACP, but what tested SD loads are out there?

Any rifle is too much for home/urban defense IMHO, though. If you want a long gun, get a 12 gauge. If it's for afield, the AK round is better by far and "handy" ain't the big deal. Now, my SKS can group cheap ammo into 3" at 100 yards and the AK does good to get 6" from what I've seen. I much prefer the SKS and it's cheaper and doesn't have the media stigma of the AK either. A SKS is a great pick up gun and the design of the magazines, you can leave one loaded and the spring will never take a set. I love the things for that sort of use. Not a better dollar for dollar deal out there for a "ranch rifle", IMHO.

 

[NineseveN]

. I much prefer the SKS and it's cheaper and doesn't have the media stigma of the AK either.

What do you think every media account is gonna call your SKS if you ever have to use it or you get arrested for something?

Yes, that's right, an "AK-47 Assault Rifle"...if I had a dollar for every time that's been done, I think I'd have close to six figures. :banghead:

Just an observation.

 

[antarti]

If you are doing a tac reload (which is even more important with the AK due to lack of bolt hold back on last round), you need your full hand to grab the mag and rock it while you thumb the release.

Hmm... I've seen what might be called "sacrificial" mag changes with the AK (don't know the proper term) at a 3-gun match. You grab the new mag, jam/smash it (front edge of new mag) into the mag release and follow through, where it rocks/knocks the mag out, then insert/rock/lock new mag. I tried it with a couple old chinese mags, and it worked ok but took a little practice to get consistent. It also beat hell out of the mags, and that would be worse (I imagine) with the mags with the rolled rear ledge. Made for a rapid mag change if you didn't need to hang on to the old one though. One good smack and mag gets out of your way, hand on grip stays put.

There are extended "tactical" AK mag releases that allow you to extend the trigger finger to drop a mag? No idea if these work well.

 

[NineseveN]

There are extended "tactical" AK mag releases that allow you to extend the trigger finger to drop a mag? No idea if these work well.

The one from www.redstararms.com works well.

 

[444]

I thought about buying that, but decided I was getting too much junk on my AK. I might be worth considering though if it is really that much better.

 

[DMK]

"You hold the PG in your right hand, rotate the weapon to the left about 45 degrees, reach over the top, pull the bolt all the way back, then release."

I realize that it certainly can be done that way. But, it isn't ideal. But, then again we arn't talking about the ideal way to design a rifle: that is the way it is, and your method is the only method I know of dealing with it. The problem with having the charging handle on the strong side of the gun is that you are reaching over the gun, if you want to run the gun with your weak hand. This presents several problems. First of all, if you have the rifle at the ready position, your support side arm is blocking your vision of the target when you are running the action. Second, if you are trying to clear a malfunction, the ejected case could bounce off your arm and back into the action. Third, when clearing a complicated malfunction: type II, or III, it would be nice to be able to visualize the chamber when you are clearing it to see if the failure to eject or the feedway stoppage has been cleared by your actions. But, there is nothing that can be done about it.
The bolt handle on the right, and the paddle type mag release are certainly a feature of many popular rifles and certainly arn't limited to the AK>

All excellent points. Which is why I like my FALs and ARs much better than AKs and M1 Carbines. (although the FAL still has the same mag swap problem, who know why the Belgians copied the AK magwell design ... if it had the AR magwell design and upper receiver mounted rear sights, it would probably be the almost perfect rifle).

 

[rustymaggot]

Get an SKS paratrooper carbine, handier than the AK, but same cartridge.

Really, the M1 Carbine shoots a pistol load, a weak one at that. It's got velocity, but not much bullet. With expanding bullets, it should stop as well as a .45ACP, but what tested SD loads are out there?

.

ok, 30 carbine is not a weak pistol round. it has twice the energy of +p 9mm. its closer to being equal to 357 than anything else. AND, 30 CARBINE HAS ENERGY EQUAL TO SOME LOADS OF 44 MAGNUM! there are softpoints available for it and those have better penetration than 9mm. ball has 20 cm MORE penetration than softpoints! and.......... its semi accurate to 300 yards! even out of carbine id like to see how 9mm fairs at 300 yards.

im sorry, but your just plain wrong. i wish you guys would actually look at the info about somthing before you say its somthing its not. people suffer from a term called "primacy" i might be spelling that wrong, but what it is is the trend to believe whatever youve been told first, regardless of how wrong you are proven to be later. whatever people are led to believe first, sticks with them. so all these veterans of the korean war say 30 carbine isnt worth poop and regardless of the proof later you guys still badmouth it. thats herd behavior, man. look at the info available and forget what youve been told. 30 carbine is unpopular, but its not weak.

a m1 carbine was a early attempt to do the same thing a mp5 does. fire a pistol round out of a short rifle.

 

[JShirley]

Really, the M1 Carbine shoots a pistol load, a weak one at that

Hogwash. A "weak one" would be .380 (power level) or less, which the M1 Carbine clearly exceeds.

For close-range home defense type stuff, I'd take the better ergonomics of the M1 and try to find some HP ammo (sure wish Federal EFMJ was available for it).

For all-around "militia" purposes, AK.

Neither are powerhouses. Both will work.

Folks here get too caught up in the caliber debates, at least in terms of defensive use. It's more germane when addressing hunting.

John