AK for 3-gun matches (considering Arsenal USA AKM, Mojo Sights, etc.)

[MatthewVanitas]

Greetings. Avoiding the larger "AK vs. AR" as much as possible, does anyone out there use an AK for 3-gun matches? Or is that niche completely dominated by AR variants?

I had been considering getting an AR for some time, but have recently become interested in the AK series. My unit deals with a lot of confiscated AKs, redistributing them to Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, etc. So I've gotten a chance to handle quite a few of them. I've found the design rather interesting, and am now considering buying an AKM of some sort upon returning to the states (and upon leaving Kali when I EAS).

The main products that interest me are the AKM-variants made by Arsenal USA. The buzz on THR seems to be that they make a quality stamped AK . I'm more interested in the stamped variants, as 2 pounds is quite a weight saving indeed.

Though there don't seem to be as many "curb feeler" doodads and widgets to add to AKs as for ARs, there do appear to be a few interesting choices out there. I'm mainly curious about red-dot sights (Kobra, etc.), and furniture options. Ironwood seems to make some great hardwood furniture, but Choate's Drag-style stock seems like it would save a lot of weight (though perhaps moving the balance too far forward). Those Mojo sights also sound quite interesting, though I wonder if the aperture sight is hard to use when it's so far forward on the weapon.

In any case, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who uses an AK for any semi-formal shooting sports, and what sort of settup you find effective. I've been reading past posts about AK optics, which have been great. I also welcome and tips from those with experience with the Choate or Ironwood furniture, or the AK (or by extension) SKS Mojo sights and how the short sight-radius affects that peep. Thanks for your time. -MV

 

[TacticalSquirrel]

ArsenalUSA does not make stamped versions yet...they will start making them shortly according to a press release they had just a month or two ago however. They built their reputation with high quality milled versions. I am waiting for them to produce the stamped as well, as are many many other AK shooters.
I would go ahead and use it for a three gun match. Matches will have more AR15 shooters naturally, but there have been people that have used AK's. If it's a weapon system that appeals to you, by all means make the best of it and see what you can do. If you use the 7.62x39 round your times or follow-up shots may be slower due to the additional recovery time from the recoil. Other disadvantages I've seen people on the various boards say is that reloads and disengaging the safety have slowed their times somewhat. Most of this can be overcome with training on it and using different techniques to make it more user friendly. I myself have an AK104 Saiga conversion that I work with a lot, and wouldn't hesitate to use. If targets were at longer distances I don't think I would do as well, but close range it would hit nice and hard. For quicker sight aquisition, I reccomend moving the front sight back to where the gas block is. Is will shorten the sight radius a bit, but make the opens quicker to pick up. Kobra's are hard to find now, and cost almost twice what they used to. Latest I think is around $220. I still like them, but look on Tantal's sight or Freedom Optics and see what other red dots are there as well if the price jump is too much. There is also side mounts for around $40 in high and low that one can mount an optic of their own on, and this would work great also.
For furniture, I stick with the original Kvar stocks for right now, although I'm trying to have a side folder built for when the ban is done. Look on Lightfighter.com and Warriortalk.com for some threads dealing very in depth with exactly what you're talking about in their weapons and rifle section respectively.

 

[TacticalSquirrel]

One other thing to consider is to make sure you get an AK with the rail on the side so that you can mount optics. Not all of them come with it, although most can have it installed. Side-folders also can use the side-rail, but underfolders will be unable to use an optic.

 

[femoralis]

Arsenal Inc makes milled AKs and will soon make stamped ones (arsenalinc.com). Arsenal USA makes stamped AKs (globaltrades.com). Different companies.

 

[TacticalSquirrel]

Yup you're right. Arsenal INC is about as close to the actual Bulgarian factory builds as you can get. I always get the two twisted around when I need to look something up on them..Thanks.

 

[TCD]

I just installed a Mojo sight

I'll take it out to the range soon, and I'll let you know how it goes


So far, I think I like it

 

[Ian]

I've got a Mojo on my WASR-10, and it's great. Back when I got it, I posted a review of sorts here: http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00000626.html

 

[AK103K]

If you want to go the optics route, I'd get the Ultimak mount. With a dot sight, its very fast and with some, you can still use your iron sights, not that its really necessary. Its a solid mount that puts the sight forward and out of the way and doesnt take the handiness out of the gun. Snap shooting is a breeze. The side mounted sights are bulky, and right in your face and field of view.

http://www.ultimak.com/

 

[Engineer]

The Ultimak mount is very nice and stable. Also doesn't have to be removed to clean the rifle. Here's mine with an Aimpoint on an Arsenal, Inc. SLR-101.

 

[Correia]

I shoot a lot of 3gun competition (www.udpl.net, I'm the match director so that is a shameless plug).

The primary rifle I have used for the last few years is a Vepr K 7.62x39 with Krebs A2 style peep sights mounted on the dust cover. We have lots of other folks that use AKs in 3gun, and a few others who use Veprs. I've done pretty good with my Vepr so I actually feel kind of qualified on this topic.

First off there are trade offs to going with an AK. You need to realize that right off the bat there are reason that ARs dominate 3gun competition. But if you really work with your AK you can do just fine. AKs are not as controllable as an AR, even in the same caliber the AR is a softer shooting weapon. To most shooters this doesn't make a bit of difference but in this game you are looking at 2-3 aimed shots a second at targets under 100 yards if you want to do well.

With that said, that is one reason I go with a Vepr (RPK) over a lighter AK. In 3gun lighter isn't neccesarily better. Lighter can help you swing faster and lower your split time between targets, but lighter also increases your felt recoil and the amount of time it takes to get your sights back on target. If you are looking at a rifle primarily for competition, it isn't like you need to carry it up and down mountains or anything. More important than weight is balance. Pick the style of AK that points the best for you.

On the safety. I can operate the safety with my trigger finger. If you can't do this I would recommend you buy one of the safeties with the shelf that will allow you to do so. Most matches require you to start with the rifle loaded, safety on, from the low ready. Having to take your hand off of the grip to operate the safety is going to add seconds to your time. That is very bad.

On sights. Depends on what kind of match you are shooting in. Most matches have divisions between iron sights and optics. I've been shooting iron sights. I much prefer the Krebs A2 style dustcover mounted peep sights over the regular sights. The peeps are much better for accuracy out past 50 yards, though the regular buckhorns are very fast at under that.

On accuracy. Beware the cheap AKs. Make sure you get one that is capable of about 2 MOA. But this also really depends on where you will be shooting 3gun at. Many ranges only have bays available out to 100 or 200 yards. The farther out you are shooting the more accuracy you are going to need. Contrary to popular belief AKs are capable of good accuracy. The cobbled together crap guns and the lousy sights give them a bad rep. My Vepr is a 2 MOA gun using Wolf ammo, it would probably do better with better ammo, but I'm too cheap to practice with Lapua.

Another accesory you may want to look at is a shelf that attaches to your mag release. This allows you to operate the mag with your trigger finger, saving you one step. I don't use one of these because I use the magazine as a vertical foregrip so my thumb is right there anyway. On the mag changes, be very careful not to run your gun dry. Having to manually rack the bolt will put you at least a second behind a reload done by an AR shooter with their automatic bolt hold open. I blew that one myself this Saturday. It was a complicated stage with lots of targets that needed to be shot from lots of different angles. I managed to run dry, and I also forgot a target hiding behind a no-shoot. The sad thing was I designed the stage.

Reloads can be done with great speed, but you need to practice a ton.

In 3gun, muzzle brakes are your friend. Get one, it will help. Though they suck when you have to shoot inside of a room or inside a tight barricade, or under a metal table. But the little bit of difference they make to your split times is worth it.

I have not used optics on an AK in competition so I can't comment on that. Though I'm building a .223 Vepr for competition this year that will use an Ultimak mount with an EO-tech to serve as my open gun.

I have not used any of those types of furniture that you mention. Just be sure to get something that has a good LOP for you. And get a recoil pad, not for the recoil, but more so that the pad will stick to you and help keep the gun in place. My Vepr doesn't have one, and that is something that I'm going to change. Plastic is to slick and tends to make the stock shift in the pocket when you are trying to shoot fast from weird positions.

Hope that helps.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Wow, lots of great info on this thread, much appreciated indeed.

After deployment, I'll have only some months left in CA. A CMP Garand will hold me fine for that time period, but something a bit more trendy will be necessary after I escape to Boise.

I understand the Arsenal USA and Arsenal Inc are two separate companies, but with both moving towards stamped AKM-types, I'll have to do some Net research to find any daylight between them. So long as it's a stamped-receiver AK system rifle made from quality components, I'll be happy. I realize that a lot of folks are thrilled with their milled receivers, or the RPK-receiver rifles. However, I would be buying an "all-around" AK, so weight savings would be a plus for me, despite any competitive disadvantage. Any competitive shooting I do will just be for fun and practice, at least for the forseeable future.

Lots of great gouge on the Ultimak, the more I look into it. A bit pricey, but seems like a quality product. That'll also save me a couple bucks not buying an Ironwood upper handguard (smile).

I notice a few different grips on the various AK photos. Is there any consensus as to who makes the most comfortable grips?

 

[MatthewVanitas]

...Bumped the wrong button and posted before I was finished.

Thanks for the link to the review of the Mojo. I suppose I'll just have to try one out myself and see if the extended eye-relief impairs my ability to use the aperture.

Mr Correia: thanks for the notably detailed info on my base topic. That's the amazing thing about this board: name it and some guy has done it.

The extended selector-lever would be great. The long reach for my trigger-finger to switch off safe is probably the main thing that annoys me about AKs. Is there a reccommended source for such a project?

Regarding muzzlebrakes. Once the AWB sunsets, would I be better off putting on some form of M16-type compensator, rather than an AK-74 style muzzlebrake? The popular consensus seems to be that the AK-74 brake is so loud as to be unholy, though I have not personally experienced such.

Thanks to all for your most excellent advice. With good fortune, maybe someday I'll be able to help out AK newbies, in later days in friendlier states. But the CA clock is ticking...

 

[Zak Smith]

Avoiding the larger "AK vs. AR" as much as possible, does anyone out there use an AK for 3-gun matches? Or is that niche completely dominated by AR variants?

At the large matches (RM3G-2003, and SMM3G-2004), I saw no - zero - AK's. Every class except for "He-Man" (requires 308 or 30-06) is dominated by AR15's. I did see one Daewoo, however.

-z

 

[Correia]

Zak, you would have seen one if my wife hadn't gone and gotten pregnant again, thereby requiring me to take the money I had set aside for traveling to big matches and using it save for the new baby. (Next year I will have a 3 man Utah team ready to go, hope to see you in Raton).

Zak is right though, ARs totally dominate national level 3gunning. Accuracy and ease of shooting are hard to beat.

Matthew, for an extended safety try: www.krebscustom.com There is also another company doing it, but I can't recall their name. Do a search under the member Tire Iron. I believe he had a detailed report about one from another company on this forum.

 

[MiniZ]

Blackjack of Blackjack buffers fame is making an extended safety.

http://www.blackjackbuffers.com

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Oi MiniZ, thanks for the link to Blackjack. The levers seem pretty slick. Have you tried one yourself? Any idea what the difference is between the "notched" and un-notched levers? In any case, an easier to use safety solves one of my major gripes about AKs. Thanks.

 

[Blackjack1]

Blackjack of Blackjack buffers fame is making an extended safety.

The notch is used to lock back the bolt. Many ranges require a locked back bolt, it also helps cool the barrel down.

Actually, I've always considered my buffers to be my trademark but the safety lever has turned out to be a very popular item as well. I can offer them in od green and tan as well as black now.

 

[chevrofreak]

Yep, get an UltiMAK and a nice red dot. Get a good muzzle brake while you're at it.

You might consider 5.45x39, as it has less recoil. Faster shots means better score.

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Chevro has plunged this thread of the bottomless depths of Correctness.

Go with an AK74 chambered in 5.45x39, I bought a Romanian CUR 2 74 and I am amazed how accurate it is and how little recoil there is. The 74's are a great improvement of the 47's in terms of accuracy and damn near everything else.

When some of my health problems clear up, I am hoping to compete in a few competitions with some of my AK's just to see the dirty looks I get for bringing the odd-gun-out into AR-ville.

So many people have bought into the notion that AK's are inherintly inaccurate, and while a $400 47 is not going to outshoot a $2500 heavily modified AR, but if you practice with the AK, get used to it, get some good ammo, I think you and those around you will be very surprised how well it shoots.

 

[corncob]

What, exactly, IS 3-gun? It sounds like IDPA for carbines. I've heard it mentioned on this board but never in real life.

 

[Correia]

Do a search of the competition forum. I usually abbreviate it to 3gun so that it will show up in the search engine. Also look under some of Zak Smith's posts to see some great pictoral break downs of some big matches.

 

[Forrest]

There's another option to the Mojo replacement rear peep. Krebs makes a reasonably priced peep sight fabricated from Warsaw pact rear leaf sights. While doing comparision shopping between it the Mojo, I thought I'd like the more "authentic" look of the Krebs. And the Mojo's use of allen wrenches for adjustment, is not to my liking. YMMV.

A previous poster who talked about Kreb's dust cover mounted M16A2 rear sight may be on the best track. This option sure does increase the sight radius. Apparently Krebs does some work to the dust cover so that it orients in the same place every time the rifle gets taken down and put back together. I don't know if this change makes it harder to strip/assemble the rifle if you can't see what you are doing, or if being able to do that is important to you.

The aperture on the Krebs peep rear sight replacement leaf is "just right" for me. Your sight picture will probably benefit if you mill the front sight to the point that it is "close" to being square in profile. Make four flats and leave big radii, you will see only the improvement that the flats make and not the radii that you left in place. If you try to mill the sight square, it will be tiny.

I'd second the advice to get the Blackjack selector lever replacement. I had to spend some time fitting it to my FCG but it is a real improvement in ergonomics.

There's also some things you can do in the area of fitting of the front end of your rifle- gas tube and lower handguard- to make it shoot a little better. Also the dust cover fitting.