AK in 3 gun? Why or why not.

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You're not going to find the answer you're looking for here. What you will get are the pro-AR vs. pro-AK answers. If you want to screen all those answers, go for it, but I doubt if it'll help you to decide.

The only way you're going to find your answer is to go to a 3G Match and try both (at those matches that will allow the AK). Then you will know for certain which works better for you. The same goes for any firearm, it's all a matter of what works best for the operator.

:D I know this doesn't help, and it may ruffle a few feathers somewhere, but take it or leave. In the end you're going to do what you want to anyway.

Wayde
 
IronLance, I'm afraid Zak is right. It has nothing to do with AK vs. AR. Like I said, I'm not aware of anybody who is more of a die-hard AK fan for 3gun than me, and I fully admit that the AR is the gun to beat.
 
At the 2004 Superstition Mountain 3Gun Match (SMM3G), a shooter came all the way from Russia. Guess what he shot... an AR15:
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I'd really like to see what the FN-FNC or a properly setup Galil could do.

As for AK triggers, perhaps I've got a mutant AK but my Saiga has an excellent trigger. I sure as hell prefer the 2-stage trigger over any AR I've fired, and I like ARs.


The AR is essentially ideal for 3-gun however, with its plethora of available optics and configurations the ability to custom build the platform for the individual user and attain a far better "fit" for the user. The AR's got fast magazine changes, 3-gun specific tuners dedicated to the platform. Its a light, handy rifle to start with. Now that said, I dont feel the AK is so inferior. I know my AK wont outgroup my best friend's M4 bushie, however my AK does have some advantages.

The AK's most effective optics, arent terrifically expensive. A hotrod AK runs around 800-1000 for the top end, which is where many ARs begin. The AK's reputation for inaccuracy stems from the cheap Romanian AKs primarily. Horrible trigger pull, canted FSBs, crappy barrels and the occasional warped receiver. Poor iron sights and the popularity of cheap, inaccurate bulk ammo doesnt help things either. I'd love to see what a proper Vepr 7.62x39mm could do with match ammo and aperture sights.
 
"...The only way you're going to find your answer is to go to a 3G Match and try both..." Capital idea. Go shoot. Use whatever you have(use good ammo that's accurate in your rifle though), but remember that it's about having fun playing a shooting game. You'll still have fun and meet some great people just by going. I wouldn't be using an AR either. I'd go with my old Plainfield M-1 carbine. It's 100% reliable and my handloads work every time. Even if I had an AR, I reach for it first. I could use a few more 30 round mags, but they're evil here. So is the rifle come to think of it.
Use whatever you have, but go shoot the matches. It's fun.
 
sunray,
I use a WWII Inland with an old Tasco PDP-3/1min dot. I can hang out to 200yds and what I lose at longer distances, I can usually make up on the run-n-gun stages.
 
Zak Smith,

How did the Russian do?
Were you able to speak to him about AK vs. AR?
 
We have a national 3-gun variant run by the military reserves' sports organization. The Finnish acronym for the sport is SRA.

The matches tend to be about 70-20-10 rifle, pistol and shotgun. As our military issue rifle is the Sako/Valmet in 7,62x39, there are plenty of shooters such as myself that commit their training to the AK platform, the logic being "that's what they'll give you when the whistle blows". Due to this, the competition circuit shows way over 50% AK rifles, mostly Saigas (Saiga always means the original M3-EXP-01 or genuine AK-103 configuration here), Norincos, Arsenals and Sakos. The vast majority of the .223 shooters use AR variants, with the odd SIG 55x and Steyr AUG in the mix.

That said, it's quite clear that the AR rules the game. The rifle stages are usually kept to a 150 meter maximum just to even the field a bit. Beyond that the flatter trajectory of the .223 really gives heck to the 7,62 crowd. Very few shoot with .223 AK:s. With the heavy piston/slide combo still shaking the rifle up'n'down there's only so much one can do about felt recoil in an AK...

The top AK shooters tend to use Sako M92S:s as only they seem to equal the Vepr in inherent accuracy. Veprs OTOH are surprisingly rarely seen...? The odd Saiga shooter in the top 10 has been observed. Last year the championship was taken with an AK but the man is quite an exception, several times IPSC and Steel Challenge nat'l champion as well.

So, even in this environment with the majority still using the AK, the AR is proving superior in the 3-gun game. Mag changes aren't an issue, general ergonomics and recoil behavior have quite some significance, but the main issues are the .223 trajectory and the inferior inherent accuracy of most AK rifles IMHO.

As to the real application here, we're still quite happy with the 7,62... very hard to go to distances beyond 100 meters here and the landscape is quite well covered. It takes more than a little twig to steer those 122gr projectiles off intended course. And there's no end to the abuse and harsh conditions those Valmet M62:s will take and still deliver.
 
It is a just a game. The rules favor the AR. Real life can be different. Practice with the gun you will have (AR, AK, M1, ect..)

The rules could be changed to favor any weapon.
 
dadman,

I believe he did well, in the upper 25%. I don't have a copy of the results from almost 18 months ago to check. I also believe his rifle was borrowed from someone here in the US. I assume he could have borrowed an AK-pattern if he really wanted one.

The rifle stages are usually kept to a 150 meter maximum just to even the field a bit.
[...]
but the main issues are the .223 trajectory and the inferior inherent accuracy of most AK rifles IMHO.
[...]
we're still quite happy with the 7,62... very hard to go to distances beyond 100 meters here and the landscape is quite well covered

All the big 3Gun matches in the U.S. have rifle targets beyond 150 yards. SMM3G and RM3G both go to about 350 yards. MGM Ironman had rifle targets to 600-650 yards. Even some of our local matches have rifle shots to 400 yards.

Going back to my first post in this thread:
One of our local 3Gun/rifle matches does an "AR vs AK" match once a year. 4 rifle stages, 0-400 yards. Shoot them with your AR15 with iron sights first, then shoot the match again with your AK. So we have the exact same match shot by the same person with an AR and then an AK. No optics.

The scores broke down like this: on the "CQB" stage, there was basically no difference in scores. The AK is easy to drive fast, close. On the long range stages (200-400 yards), the AK scores suffered a lot, mainly due to totally inadequate iron sights, and the poor trigger didn't help.
Summary: the AK is OK at close range but gets progressively worse compared to the AR as the range increases.
 
Interesting Thread

While we don't shoot formal 3-gun at our club, we do have Carbine events that go out no further than 100-yds. Most stages are "IDPA" distances. I have both platforms, have shot both at these events where the AR clearly is the platform of choice for most shooters.

I recently took an all day class with 3 of my fellow competitors designed to build up our skills for these events. The more of us who have been taught more "advanced" skills, the more interesting stages can be considered. Additionally, as one of the RO's at these events it's useful to to see how the senior staff manages some exercises. I was the only one shooting a Commie Rifle, the other 3 were shooting AR's.

At "IDPA" distances, I'd have to agree with Correia's comments. It's less the platform and more about the skill and dedication to practice of the shooter. My hits compared favorably to my classmates, although they at times had slightly tighter groups. During rapid mounting drills, most often I would do as well or better (legs have slowed down, but stationary reflexes still aren't too bad ;)). During reload drills, most often I surpassed their speed (because of intensive dry-fire practice). At the end of the day, young legs prevailed and in some House runs I simply couldn't keep up with one of the younger/fitter participants.

As to platform specifics, I've "customized" the iron sights by filing a V in the rear to more easily pick up the front sight, and I filed a notch in the safety lever so I can keep the bolt back for chamber inspections and stay open for chamber flag insertion between runs. My short fingers don't really allow for indexing the safety off at the buzzer, but my reaction time is still pretty good so I end up doing alright. My out of the box trigger (Global Trades/Arsenal Inc. SSR-56) tips the Lyman scale at about 3.5#. My 20" Bushmaster in contrast is closer to 7.5# (but it doesn't feel that heavy during firing). As much practicing as I've done with "rock & lock", a pair of cinched AR mag's switch much more easily than cinched AK mag's (lighter too).

For formal 3-gun, if you want to win...clearly the AK provides some significant challenges to be overcome. However, if you simply desire the opportunity to get in some practice with your Commie Rifle...as long as you are safe, go for it. These types of events are useful to see how you and your equipment perform under some stress. I found that while on most occasions I can rock & lock cinched AK mag's just fine, too often with my 20-rd Tankers I had issues (if I wasn't perfect, the rounds might slip a hair and cause some malf's). I switched to 30-rd Polymer mag's and did much better.

In any Defensive Shooting event, there are those that will concentrate on the trophies (and there is nothing wrong with that) as well as those that concentrate on the "defensive practice" (and there is nothing wrong with that either).

We have a Carbine Practice we are trying to organize this weekend. That "young whippersnapper" will likely be there with his AR...and I'll be there with mine :). I want every advantage I can get!!

Safe shooting,

CZ52'
 
I can't say I've competed much in any "formal" 3 guns. But I have done a few Carbine competitions here in the Bay Area. From the the couple I have seen, it seems like the AR's have about a 50% failure rate. Meaning about half of them will at one time or another through out the competition will have one or more jams. Last one I went to, out of the 4 AR's on the range, 3 jammed.

That's pretty horrible if you ask me. We are talking about high ends ones too, not your Frankenstein, built with whatever is laying around AR's. In fact the only guns (that I noticed) that did not jam at all was the Garand and SKS. Hell even my FAL was jamming so much due to a bent gas piston (and if you know anything about FALs, that just doesn't very often).

Maybe it was just a bad day at the range.

Either way, next time I go to one of these competitions I'm going to be bringing my Mak-90 with some good match ammo. I feel with good ammo it will be only at a slight accuracy disadvantage to the AR's. But that disadvantage will be made up for by reliability.
 
50, all of the serious 3gunners have very reliable guns. Doesn't matter the platform. These guys mean to win, and they do whatever it takes to make their guns run. Most of the AR malfunctions I see come from newer shooters, or guys who feel the need to constantly tinker.
 
I ended up shooting it with my mini-14. Mostly AR's. A few mini's and a FAL and a H&K. Some of the AR's were in 9mm. Most of the AR's had a hic-cup. Seemed to be 40 rounders that caused feeding problems. 30 rounders ran fine. The H&K was in 9mm and had a FTFeed. :uhoh: I had two PMI 30 rounders for the mini. Ran good.

Another shoot at DSC on the 7th. I'm going to use the AK. I'll do fine. At least I know I can be competitive.
 

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I see everybody gave the new guy a warm welcome. Welcome to the High Road Perry F. New guy buys ammo :) I'll take some Gold Dots ;)
 
I shoot 3-gun occaisionally. I don't own an AR15, so I use my Romanian SAR-2, which is an AK variant, sometimes referred to as an AK-74, because it is chambered for 5.45x39 instead of 7.62x39.

I feel that this chambering is more of an "apples to apples" comparison with the AR's .223 (although you CAN get an AK in .223)

Mine has a 74 style muzzle break and I use the Russian Kobra red-dot sight with its integral mount attached to the factory side mount on the SAR-2. I have an adjustable trigger group from Red Star that is totally adjustable for a great trigger pull. It really makes a difference.

I also have installed an ambi tactical mag release that makes reloads a bunch easier. This is also available from Red Star:

Even with all the add-ons (black polymer stock, muzzle break, trigger group, recoil buffer, Kobra red dot and misc.), I still have less than $600 in the gun including 6 30rd mags. And it is TONS of fun, whether I am shooting 3-gun with it or not. :D
 
No brakes, the most important thing is that you go and have fun. All of this other crap you can worry about later.
 
AUG for 3 gun

My shooting with AUGs has never been more than 100m, has anybody done well with them in 3 gun? I have one, in black.

The serious rifle I have ordered, a DIA 16" RRA AR15 that has (they say) a 1 moa at 100m, with a NM trigger (don't know what weight of trigger pull) can not wait to get my hands on that little flat top.

Last question, how many competitors use the EOTech? Nice for quick and dirty, how about 200m?

Keep Safe.
 
I have seen a couple guys shoot AUGs in 3Gun. The common problems I could see were: mag changes slow/difficult, clearing malfs was very troublesome, and they had trouble making hits past 100 yards (though that's probably the driver and not the gun). Magazine-monopod does not work.

The EOTech is a good optic for 3Gun. 200 yards is about its limit for me for the EOTech on typical targets (ie, 8-14" plates), at speed anyway. It rocks for close range matches.
 
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