All metal .45's, and .40S&W vs .357sig

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GoodKat

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Two questions:
1: What are some good, non-1911 choices for all metal .45's? I don't really care for polymer .45's, they just seem wrong somehow, but I have enough 1911's.

2: .40S&W vs .357sig, the rounds are basically interchangeable, so why should I go with one over the other and in what situations?
 
1: What are some good, non-1911 choices for all metal .45's? I don't really care for polymer .45's, they just seem wrong somehow, but I have enough 1911's.

The Ruger P90 is a great choice - affordabe, reasonably accurate, and built like a tank. I had one until recently when it was stolen.


2: .40S&W vs .357sig, the rounds are basically interchangeable, so why should I go with one over the other and in what situations?

Although I personally prefer the .357 Sig, I'd go with .40 because of ammo is cheaper and more readily available.
 
.45ACP = CZ 97, S&W 945, Sig P220
.40S&W = CZ 75, Browning Hi-power, Sig 239

just to name a few.
 
For a non 1911, non polymer .45 I'd go with a SIG P220. I've had a stainless 220 for a few years now and it's one that I'll never get rid of.

As far as .40 vs .357, I went with .40 just because you can find ammo practically everywhere.
 
+1 on the Sig Sauer P220 in pretty much any form or fashion. Mine is the P220 Compact and I can't picture ever parting with it. Out of the box accuracy and dependability. I didn't have to pay to shove 500 rounds through it to get it "there". It has been awesome from the git go.

40 S&W vs. 357sig: My 2¢ and mine alone: If I cared deeply enough about the cost of the ammo, I would have kept my 22LR. I opted to sell it along with 1750 rounds and put that $$ towards a used Sig Sauer P239 chambered in 357sig. If you buy in bulk the cost difference is minimal. And lemme tell ya: It's a blast to shoot, literally. It does not snap. (I wasn't sure about this so I asked the range manager if he would like to fire it. He was very impressed. He said he had fired the 357sig in Glocks and they don't tame the 357sig the way the all metal Sig Sauer does. When I offered him a second magazine full he did not hesitate.) The all metal Sig doesn't jump either. I observed him and the firearm and was pleased to see how quickly he got back on target. In a nutshell: I'm stoked.
 
I've yet to feel a better SA trigger than on my older Sig 220. The older S&W revolvers come close though.

It's not perfect, but I rely on it daily.
 
SIG P220 (I especially like the new SAO version)
S&W Third Generation (older metal frame autos, not the M&P). They come in three different sizes and can be had in all steel (both frame and slide) or steel slide on aluminum alloy frame.
 
The ammo cost thing between .357 sig and .40 cal is a popular misconception. The .357 sig is a superior round. Go to ammunitiontogo.com and compare costs of .357 Sig to .40 S&W, you might be surprised.;)
 
Where are you getting your balistic data? The .357 SIG 125gr HP actually has less energy than the slower, heavier .40S&W 165gr HP and when comparing .40S&W in a 155gr HP even more so. The 125gr .357 SIG HP is slightly flatter shooting no doubt but but given a choice I'd rather the bad guys were shooting .357 SIG than the harder hitting .40S&W.
 
Where are you getting your balistic data? The .357 SIG 125gr HP actually has less energy than the slower, heavier .40S&W 165gr HP and when comparing .40S&W in a 155gr HP even more so. The 125gr .357 SIG HP is slightly flatter shooting no doubt but but given a choice I'd rather the bad guys were shooting .357 SIG than the harder hitting .40S&W.






From The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery (6th edition) by
Massad Ayoob:

.357 sig: What is in essence .40 S&W cartridge necked down to take a 9mm bullet, the .357 sig was an attempt to gain .357 Magnum


power level in a moderately sized auto pistol. It clearly succeeded. The cartridge is now in use by the state troopers of Delaware, New Mexico, North Carolina, Texas, and Virginia. It replaces the +P+ 9mm ammunition of the Secret Service and the Air Marshalls. Simply put, the latter two agencies liked what they got out of a 115-grain 9mm bullet at 50 to 100 feet per second greater velocity.

They were right. With the cartridge in use for several years, uniformly excellent results have been reported. Richmond, Va. has had seven shootings as of this writing, all very fast stops. In only one was the suspect shot several times, probably because he was attempting to murder a downed officer and brother officers hosed him as fast as they could pull the triggers of their Sig Pro pistols. In a Texas shootout, a veteran trooper shot at a gunman ensconced in a semi-trailer tractor, but the bullets from his .45 did not go through. His rookie partner's SIG P-226 spat a .357 Sig Gold Dot through the cab and through the gunman's brain, killing him. Richmond noted that despite 16-inches of penetration in gelatin, all the 125-grain .357 Sig Gold Dots they've fired into men have stayed in the bodies, or in the clothing on the opposite side.

One Virginia trooper told me that what impressed him the most about the .357 Sig was that it dropped offenders instantly even when hit in non-vital areas like the abdomen. Numerous officers noted that it delivered instant one-shot stops on pit bulls, when in the past they'd had to pump round after round of 147-grain 9mm subsonic into similar animals. While 115-grain through 150-grain loads exist, virtually all shootings on record have been made with the 125-grain round. The Gold Dot is the most proven.

The .357 Sig has drawn the wrath of at least one critic, who insisted that it was no better than 9mm subsonic and that its massive temporary wound cavity surrounding the bullet's path was irrelevant. The cops just rolled their eyes, reviewed their dynamic real world results, and kept carrying their .357 Sigs.


end of excerpt from Mas Ayoob.





Would you really like to be shot by .357 Sig?? I think not my friend.
 
GoodKat,

My personal pick would be Sig's P220 as others here have doubtless mentioned. Of course the Sig handguns fit me well to start with and I prefer practicing and shooting with a family of handguns which can all be operated in the same fashion across calibers. I find the consistency of operation and handlng feel helps me shoot more consistently and more naturally. Less need to think about opperation sight picture etc. the body just knows from years of shooting the same family of sidearms. Sure I own and shot other handguns and I'm always happy to try a new and different sidearm but I always finish a handgun session with 50 rounds through my PD handgun to reinforce body memory.

HTH!
 
Model of 1905,

Hearsay anticdotal stories from the field about .357SIG compared to 9mm and .45 are poor evidence of the superiority of .357SIG over .40S&W. The .40S&W is not a 9mm or a .45ACP both of which also deliver less energy at any range than the .357SIG does. Where is your ballistic data?
 
Hearsay anticdotal stories from the field about .357SIG compared to 9mm and .45 are poor evidence of the superiority of .357SIG over .40S&W. The .40S&W is not a 9mm or a .45ACP both of which also deliver less energy at any range than the .357SIG does. Where is your ballistic data?
Today 02:19 PM



Read the link I provided for you. There is much ballistic data available. Don't be lazy, do your own research and I really suggest you do so before providing opinions of your own that are not based on fact.
 
I would definately go with the Sig 220. I have one and it will digest any ammo I throw at it, is easy to handle and shoot very well.

I personally carry a 45 and beleive it is the best all around option for personal protection, however if you limit the choice to the 40 vs 357 Sig I would go with the 40. Nothing against the Sig round it is just much easier to walk in a local hardware store and pick up 40 ammo. Stopping power wise I believe both do the job well

Trekgod3 you are right, I have a firestar M40. It is the perfect size and weight combo for a concealable 40. For it's size it has minimum recoil and has a 1911 feel.
 
Here are facts from a maker of perfctly good ammunition. Look at the energy of a 155grn or 165grn HP .40S&W and compare it to a 125grn HP .357 SIG. Which one has more energy? Personally I'd rather depend on science than hearsay but YMMV.


Do you even read well? Your own "facts" prove my point not yours. LMAO

.40 S&W
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Remington® Express™ 155 499 413 356
Golden Saber™ 165 485 396 340
UMC® 165 485 396 340
Remington® Express™ 180 412 368 334
Golden Saber™ 180 412 368 334
UMC® Leadless™ 180 388 350 319
UMC® 180 412 368 334
UMC® 180 388 350 319



.357 SIG
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Remington® Express™ 125 506 372 296
UMC® 125 506 422 359
UMC® 125 506 372 296



Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG

Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
23918 357 SIG 125 GDHP 20 0.141

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1350 1184 1066 506 389 316

Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards
0.0 -0.5 -2.5 -6.2 4 1



Now if you are going to be doing your gunfighting at 50-100 yards you may be on to something. YMMV.
 
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I think this boils down to personal preference. Both the .40 and .357 sig will likely do the job, so it comes down to what you like better. I just don't think there's any MEANINGFUL difference in them, especially if you're able to hit the ten-ring...

As for me, I like the .40 for a couple of reasons...

1) Like other posters have said, it's a LOT easier to find .40 ammo than the other. I don't know if it's cheaper since I haven't really priced .357 sig, but my guess is .40 is cheaper, which means I can shoot more.

2) LE is still very much tending to use .40 (at least here where I live) and I like the idea (from a civil suit protection standpoint) of using the same caliber.

3) I reload, so related to #1 is that it's much easier to find brass for the .40 than the .357 sig.

4) In a "doomsday" scenario (yeah, I know it'll never happen and if it does I KNOW I'll have bigger problems) I like the idea of having a pretty commonly-available caliber.

That said, it really does boil down to what you like. I've got 16 rounds of .40 silvertips in my XDM as a HD weapon and I think that's perfectly adequate.
 
Model of 1905,

If you can't engage at 100 yards or even 50 yards and are only talking about shooting inside a paper bag I still don't see much of a disadvantage to .40S&W compared to .357 SIG. The best HP rounds both have very similar muzzle energy and once you get outside of the paper bag say 2-3 yards the .357 SIG starts shedding its energy and quickly falls behind the .40S&W.

The other problems with .357 SIG are much like .357 Mag it attempts to emulate. Over penetration, through and through perp hits and wall penetrations are serious issues for those with families and neighbors. I've owned various .357 Mag wheel guns and sold them due to the penetration problems of these rounds. Then there is the muzzle blast and flash deafening and blinding anybody within 10 yards but mostly the shooter which makes it hard to engage any additional targets.

OBTW, you don't need to PM me calling me names. Please at least have the stones to do so openly if it will make you feel any better.

HTH!
 
Model of 1905,

If you can't engage at 100 yards or even 50 yards and are only talking about shooting inside a paper bag I still don't see much of a disadvantage to .40S&W compared to .357 SIG. The best HP rounds both have very similar muzzle energy and once you get outside of the paper bag say 2-3 yards the .357 SIG starts shedding its energy and quickly falls behind the .40S&W.

The other problems with .357 SIG are much like .357 Mag it attempts to emulate. Over penetration, through and through perp hits and wall penetrations are serious issues for those with families and neighbors. I've owned various .357 Mag wheel guns and sold them due to the penetration problems of these rounds. Then there is the muzzle blast and flash deafening and blinding anybody within 10 yards but mostly the shooter which makes it hard to engage any additional targets.

OBTW, you don't need to PM me calling me names. Please at least have the stones to do so openly if it will make you feel any better.


If you notice by reading my posts, I never once made a negative comment about .40 cal. Actually all I did was refute your posts that the .357 SIG was an inferior round, which I have accomplished. The choice is yours to carry what you like but if a poster asks opinions try to give them facts not garbage.
OK, we all get it now, that you dont like .357 Sig even if the reasons that you have given are just your opinions, none of which are based on fact. BTW I called you pathetic in the PM, that's not a name it's my opinion and it may not be based in fact (kinda like your opinion on the .357 Sig round).:banghead:;)
 
Here is the ballistic data in a more readable form. Help me out, where exactly is the .357 SIG superior to .40S&W, at the muzzle?

HTML:
.40 S&W JHP
Energy (ft-lbs)        Bullet   Muzzle     50  100 
Remington Express       155      499      413  356 
Remingto Golden Saber   165      485      396  340 
Remington UMC           165      485      396  340 

.357 SIG JHP
Energy (ft-lbs)        Bullet   Muzzle     50  100 
Remington Express       125      506      372  296 
Remington UMC           125      506      372  296
Gold Dot HP             125      506      389  316
 
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