alternative ammunition

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I have been thinking more recently of alternatives in terms of ammunition. What I came up with follows below:

1. Neuroparalytic poison rounds.
If the bullet deforms in the target, then that is a way to release agents from a capsule. Some poisons paralyze within seconds. An extra advantage is that placement is not as critical as FMJ or JHP rounds, although hitting an area well supplied with blood will help propagation. Possibly one-shot stopper depending on dosage.

2. Basic rounds.
Same principle of delivery as above, but capsule is filled with NaOH pellets. Acids would corrode the metal, but bases don't. Also, bases liquefy tissue making holes bigger. Pellet form is most concentrated as all water is provided by the tissue itself. In addition, concentrated acids and bases hurt as hell, so there also is an incapacitating component.

Has anyone of you guys seen any of these or knows about such research?
 
One major issue:

What if one round leaks? That crap gets on YOU, and YOU suffer the effects. It would surprise me if any added lethality is worth the added danger to the user. If you can score a hit on somebody, you are already impairing them. If you score a GOOD hit, then it doesn't matter if the bullet is normal lead or some exotic chemical.
 
The Germans experimented with toxic pistol bullets in the WW II era, when they had plenty of experimental subjects to work with. I am not familiar with anything more recent to be used in conventional small arms. Doesn't mean there isn't something being quietly done with slush funds, though. The CIA had the E2 fletchette loaded with a marine invertebrate toxin to be fired from a very low powered pistol (airgun, silenced smallbore, I dunno) for assassination.
 
What if you have a accidental discharge... and shoot yourself in the foot. Since your bullet is filled with experimental chrobaninalizichlophlastic toxin you die within the minute.

If it was just a FMJ you would have a hole in your foot, but you would be alive.

:what:
 
"Acids would corrode the metal, but bases don't"

:what:

Hmm, please do not tell it to your chemistry teacher!:)
 
At one time, don't know if it is still done, Mississippi allowed the use of "the pod" in bowhunting for deer. A rubber sleeve behind the arrowhead contained the paralytic drug Anectine (succinylcholine) to prevent a wounded deer from escaping. I won't get into the sportsmanship and fair chase debates, I don't hunt anyhow.
 
An experiment? Excellent idea! Will do.

Meanwhile, explain to me the mechanism of aluminum and brass (Cu, Zn) erosion by, say NaOH. Equations please!

Aluminum surfaces produce Al2O3 coating spontaneously. The coating is not porous, so it protects the metal from further erosion. That's why the casings and kitchenware have this dull matte finish, but if you scratch them, they get shiny. Incidentally, rust happens because ferrous oxides and hydroxides are porous, so the erosion can spread inward.

Brass is Cu and Zn. Cu patinates because the eventual hydroxide is also non-porous and protects against further erosion.

In any case, with Al and Cu you end up with insoluble hydroxides that would not be displaced or attacked by other hydroxides, e.g. the one of bases. But, if you put acids in, neutralization will keep releasing metal ions in the solution and corroding any oxides or hydroxides forming meanwhile. That's why acids corrode metals. Since human skin is highly acidic, that is also why you can see thumbprints on guns and cutlery after they are stored dirty for awhile.

In any case, I am looking forward to the experiments and explanations of mechanism.
 
There is a long legal history of using conventional rounds for self defence. If you were unfortunate enough to have to use one of these rounds against somebody, you would have to convince the court that employing a 100% fatal round was a good idea. Good luck.
 
My 2 Cents

I don't feel that poison would be quick enough for a self defense situation. When SHTF 1 -2 seconds is a LOOOONG time. A better ammunition would be one that hits harder: Something that could garauntee a one shot stop.

Better energy transfer and better expansion. However, if you develope a round like that it will be outlawed and to nasty or to effective.
 
The goal of most defensive shooting is to 'stop' the attacker, not necessarily 'kill' the attacker. And the delay issue is a deal-breaker; who cares if he dies AFTER he's done attacking you?



Larry
 
I can say something about the NaOH thing. Not to bad an idea. I work in Water Treatment and we use Sodium Hydroxide for pH adjustment. I can give you some first hand accounts of the effects of this stuff. We currently get it in 50,000 gallon shipments of about a 50% mixture, which up until just recently we were diluting to 30%. Because of several different reasons. #! 30% doesn't freeze at such a high temperature. And 2 it doesn't burn you as quick. And 3 It WAS lasting us longer.

The Effects:

30%: Direct contact to skin, not a wound or open sore or anything like that, burns occur within 5-8 minutes. But it doesn't freeze until a temp of like 40 degrees farenheit. I think. It's been a while! :)

50%: Direct contact to skin, not a wound or open sore or anything like that, burns occur within 2-5 minutes. I might not be exact on the time, I just know that the last time I got it on my hands it didn't take very long at all to start feeling pain. But a 50% mixture freezes at 57 degrees.


in conclusion, if one were to use this for a toxic mixture in bullets. You would one have to use steel bullets or something that the NaOH would not eat away. And two, 50% NaOH would be preferred by me at least over the 30% mixture.
 
I put an asprin paste into HP 7.62x39 bullets. The idea was that asprin thins the blood and hinders clotting. So the target would be more likely to bleed out. They shot good, but they where a PITA to make so I only made a few. You could mabee put Lye in the HP of the Wolf bullets as well. Never tried THAT though.
 
1. Neuroparalytic poison rounds.
If the bullet deforms in the target, then that is a way to release agents from a capsule. Some poisons paralyze within seconds. An extra advantage is that placement is not as critical as FMJ or JHP rounds, although hitting an area well supplied with blood will help propagation. Possibly one-shot stopper depending on dosage.
Click to expand...

"Within seconds" when delivered how? With the vast majority of drugs, you'd need to inject them directly into a carotid artery to have an effect "within seconds." The poison can't affect what it can't touch. Tranquilizer darts usually take several minutes to have an effect, since muscular absorption of drugs is much slower than intravenous. If the bullet nicks a major blood vessel, you'd have blood pouring out more than going back in, so most of the absorption would be through gut or muscle. And then the drug would pour out any punctured blood vessels. Not very efficient at all.

2. Basic rounds.
Same principle of delivery as above, but capsule is filled with NaOH pellets. Acids would corrode the metal, but bases don't. Also, bases liquefy tissue making holes bigger. Pellet form is most concentrated as all water is provided by the tissue itself. In addition, concentrated acids and bases hurt as hell, so there also is an incapacitating component.
Click to expand...

NaOH would erode tissue, but it wouldn't be as painful as acids. If you get acid on you, you feel burning the instant it starts eating your skin (which is generally the instant it touches you). If you get a concentrated base on you, by the time you start feeling it, serious damage has already been done.

Given that the base would mix with mostly blood, all that would happen is that they would have extremely alkaline blood dumped into their body cavity and all over the ground. Since the main incapacitation effect of bullets is blood loss, you wouldn't be enhancing the short-term lethality, only long-term. Fine if you want to be sure that someone dies in screaming agony, but at that point you may as well bonk them on the head and force-feed them ground glass and lye.
 
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