Am I being realistic?

[HEAVY METAL 1]

I have an AR in 556 and try as I might I cannot shoot (standing) with or without a sling, fire a round, immediately recover from recoil and maintain the weapon's sights on a full size human silhouette target and continue to fire maintaining the sights on the silhouette. The recoil always bounces the rifle off target some. I see videos online of fellas banging away firing so rapidly they have multiple pieces of brass in the air at a time. I am not a recoil wussy, I shoot 30-06, 7.62x54 and 8MM quite a lot and I am a decent marksman. From the sand bag bench today, just to see what I could do from that set up with my AR I shot MOA so I know the rifle and the load are good. I have only had the AR about 3 years and maybe have 500 rounds total through it. Somehow either my technique needs refinement or perhaps as my expectations of being able to rapid fire at 100 yards and keep all the rounds on target is unrealistic. I thought about getting a forward vertical grip. Seeking advice.

 

[C-grunt]

Rapid fire standing unsupported on a sihlouette is unrealistic. Ive been carrying some sort of AR proffesionally for 22 years, have hundreds of hours of training on the gun, and have fired 10s of thousands of rounds through them.

If im firing fast enough to have multiple casings in the air at the same time, more than 1 (MAYBE 2) hits would be more luck than repeatable skill.

 

[someguy2800]

At 25 yards it’s pretty easy. At 100 yards not so much. Try a muzzle brake or put an adjustable gas block on it to slow the cycling down.

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

OK, that makes me feel much better especially coming from a professional soldier! I know when shooting really counts one must use every advantage to get steady. In the hunting fields there are trees and such to use. I suppose in combat one tries to use buildings, a car or whatever is handy. Thanks.

 

[Ethan Verity]

How's your shooting stance? Good firm stock weld, and leaning forward slightly with a solid fighting stance? That last part is key, I can't tell you how many people I see at the range shooting a rifle while standing perfectly straight (or worse, leaning backwards), and being rocked back under recoil with each shot.

This is how I shoot my AR-15, and I can double tap with good accuracy. Recoil is a non issue.

 

[Charlie98]

This is how I shoot my AR-15,

There are a number of issues with shooting an AR... and particularly rapid fire. Part of it is the weapon itself... if it is overgassed, like many are, the recoil may be more than it needs to be. Part of it may be how you are handling and firing the weapon itself.

Looking at Ethan's photo above... and I'm not picking on Ethan specifically, except it's his photo... but he is waaaay back on that stock. I was taught to stick your nose on the charging handle; and being a big, 6'2" guy, I'm all up on that gun... rapid fire is not an issue with me... but my AR's are properly gassed. For that matter, I taught my daughter the same way I was taught... except for issue with her left-eye dominance, she is, even at 18 years old... all up on that gun...

To be honest, it sounds like the OP's rifle is recoiling a bit much...

 

[Ethan Verity]

There are a number of issues with shooting an AR... and particularly rapid fire. Part of it is the weapon itself... if it is overgassed, like many are, the recoil may be more than it needs to be. Part of it may be how you are handling and firing the weapon itself.

Looking at Ethan's photo above... and I'm not picking on Ethan specifically, except it's his photo... but he is waaaay back on that stock. I was taught to stick your nose on the charging handle; and being a big, 6'2" guy, I'm all up on that gun... rapid fire is not an issue with me... but my AR's are properly gassed. For that matter, I taught my daughter the same way I was taught... except for issue with her left-eye dominance, she is, even at 18 years old... all up on that gun...

To be honest, it sounds like the OP's rifle is recoiling a bit much...

My positioning on the stock in relation to my shoulder always remains the same, however in my pic the stock was fully telescoped out for a full LOP, so the gun was farther out in relation to my face. On the A2 stock's second click out, my nose will be right up on the charging handle like you are describing, which is also how I shoot at times since that's the position I keep my stock in for home defense since it gives me a shorter OAL. Personally I don't think that specific detail makes any difference in shooting the gun, it's more of a whatever is comfortable to you type of thing.

I agree that the OP's rifle might be overgassed though, I was not thinking of that.

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

I am probably standing too upright and not pushing my "face on the charging handle" as suggested. I have never received instruction on AR shooting. I am used to hunting rifles and old bolt action milsurps. The next time I get out with the carbine I will try to be mindful of this advice. Thanks guys!!!

 

[wanderinwalker]

Just popping in to say rapid-firing multiple hits on a silhouette at 100 yards from the offhand position is unrealistic. At 25 yards? Sure enough. Even at 50 yards, controlled pairs landing on target should be doable. By 100 yards offhand is an awful position for making multiple rapid hits on anything smaller than the side of a car, depending on your speed expectations.

 

[Charlie98]

Personally I don't think that specific detail makes any difference in shooting the gun

Well, and you are forward over the gun. I've seen people shooting all manner of firearms... and in some cases they are almost leaning backwards... I don't think that is conducive to good marksmanship, let alone rapid fire (or quickly firing, if you see what I mean...) Having said that, everyone is built differently, so it's whatever works for that person.

 

[jmorris]

Something to rest on is more valuable than a vertical grip, especially if your holding your cell phone with your weak hand. Just leaning up against something helps.

Even then one can miss though...

Gong target

www.youtube.com

 

[mavracer]

I have only had the AR about 3 years and maybe have 500 rounds total through it. Somehow either my technique needs refinement or perhaps as my expectations of being able to rapid fire at 100 yards and keep all the rounds on target is unrealistic.

500 rounds in 3 years and expecting double taps at 100 offhand, yeah that's pretty unrealistic.
Guys that do that will shoot 500 to 1000 in a weekend

 

[rhino465]

I have an AR in 556 and try as I might I cannot shoot (standing) with or without a sling, fire a round, immediately recover from recoil and maintain the weapon's sights on a full size human silhouette target and continue to fire maintaining the sights on the silhouette. The recoil always bounces the rifle off target some. I see videos online of fellas banging away firing so rapidly they have multiple pieces of brass in the air at a time. I am not a recoil wussy, I shoot 30-06, 7.62x54 and 8MM quite a lot and I am a decent marksman. From the sand bag bench today, just to see what I could do from that set up with my AR I shot MOA so I know the rifle and the load are good. I have only had the AR about 3 years and maybe have 500 rounds total through it. Somehow either my technique needs refinement or perhaps as my expectations of being able to rapid fire at 100 yards and keep all the rounds on target is unrealistic. I thought about getting a forward vertical grip. Seeking advice.

How much are you actively pulling the rifle into your shoulder/pec/clavicle or wherever you mount the stock (or similarly, pushing that area of your body into the end of the stock)? If the rifle is moving that much, I recommend pulling it (with your support hand) more tightly against your shoulder.

When I shoot more than a few shots, I usually get a little bruising where I mount the stock. It's not from recoil at all - it's from aggressively pulling the rifle into my body in order to stabilize it for shooting multiple shots. I'm probably a little too enthusiastic in that regard, but the point is that you need to pull it into you if you want to fire more than one round at a time.

Edit to add:

When I used to shoot a lot of 3-gun, several times people in my squad commented on how effective the compensator on my AR was since my muzzle didn't visibly move when I was shooting fairly quick splits. They were were surprised when I told them the thing on the end of my barrel was a humble A2 flash hider, not a comp or a brake of any kind. Technique makes a big difference.

 

[243winxb]

recoil always bounces the rifle off target

Dont jam the rifles butt hard into your shoulder. This only makes the muzzle rise.

A loose hold allows the gun to bounce in & back off the shoulder on recoil. Your hands are holding the rifle in position. The rifle feels like it's just vibrating in that position.

The M16A1 carbine, 14.5" bbl, has the advantage of only needing to pull the trigger 1 time for a 30 round mag.
My 3 X power Colt scope allowed better aiming.

With a semi, i would fire 5 shots in 10 seconds, on target @100 yards & increase speed over days of practice.

 

[Dr T]

Internet video? Nothing like a wide angle lens to make a close target look far, far away.

 

[DMW1116]

Check the rules for standing position for NRA service rifle competition. The times and distances there are, if not easy, at least standardized. looking at the times for NRA pistol rapid fire was eye opening I imagine the same is true for rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

I was taught to stick your nose on the charging handle

Although common because it was REQUIRED to promote proper eye relief behind A1/A2 rear sights, following this instruction ensures the shooter is in a relatively weakened position behind the rifle to accept the recoil, because it forces the shooter to blade their shoulders to the target, removing body mass from behind the rifle, and removing ergonomic strength and support from the line of the rifle (aka, linebackers don't turn their shoulders sideways to make hits, they keep their bodies - shoulders and hips - square). Conceptually, think about how far your nose really reaches in front of the plane of the chest... Personally, with my chest square, my nose with my neck stretched as far forward as possible without tilting my head down will only reach 6.25" in front of the plane of my chest... Comparatively, the charging handle of an AR-15 with an A2 stock is 11" from the buttplate... This means I have to turn my head and blade my shoulders to the target to make up for almost 5" of extra length to get my nose on the charging handle... But if I'm not shooting A1/A2 aperture sights, I really don't need to align my eye in that same position...

So instead, with non-A1/A2 type sights, we can realize a more powerful and better supported shooting position, retaining more body mass behind the rifle and keeping our spine better aligned to the target to catch the recoil and run the gun. A shooter can even bring the rifle buttstock inward on the chest rather than slid out onto the medial face of the anterior deltoid, and put even MORE body mass in line with the rifle with LESS leverarm afforded to the rifle to twist the spine in recoil - aka, better catch recoil and recover even faster...

So if you're shooting irons for Service Rifle Competition (and don't, because you'll get gut stomped by all of the dudes running 4.5x scopes now), then nose-to-charger works, but for any other optic, wanting to deliver rapid succession shots on target, stop twisting the shoulders and your body behind and in line with the recoil - which will mean your nose comes off of the charger a LONG ways.

Knowing nothing else, but simply observing their positions, the shooter in @Ethan Verity's photo will catch recoil and recover on target MUCH more quickly than the shooter in @Charlie98's photo.

Observing his uniform, and acknowledging the AMU programming, you might imagine Staff Sergeant Payne has been thoroughly instructed on proper operation of the AR-15/M16 platform. But to catch recoil, he’s not shooting nose-to-charger in this photo:


Alternatively, it’s pretty simple to see how little of AMU shooter Sergeant Wannamcher’s body is behind this rifle to catch recoil, and easy to see how much torque around his spine he will experience when shooting with his nose on the charger.

 

[Ethan Verity]

Although common because it was REQUIRED to promote proper eye relief behind A1/A2 rear sights, following this instruction ensures the shooter is in a relatively weakened position behind the rifle to accept the recoil, because it forces the shooter to blade their shoulders to the target, removing body mass from behind the rifle, and removing ergonomic strength and support from the line of the rifle (aka, linebackers don't turn their shoulders sideways to make hits, they keep their bodies - shoulders and hips - square). Conceptually, think about how far your nose really reaches in front of the plane of the chest... Personally, with my chest square, my nose with my neck stretched as far forward as possible without tilting my head down will only reach 6.25" in front of the plane of my chest... Comparatively, the charging handle of an AR-15 with an A2 stock is 11" from the buttplate... This means I have to turn my head and blade my shoulders to the target to make up for almost 5" of extra length to get my nose on the charging handle... But if I'm not shooting A1/A2 aperture sights, I really don't need to align my eye in that same position...

So instead, with non-A1/A2 type sights, we can realize a more powerful and better supported shooting position, retaining more body mass behind the rifle and keeping our spine better aligned to the target to catch the recoil and run the gun. A shooter can even bring the rifle buttstock inward on the chest rather than slid out onto the medial face of the anterior deltoid, and put even MORE body mass in line with the rifle with LESS leverarm afforded to the rifle to twist the spine in recoil - aka, better catch recoil and recover even faster...

So if you're shooting irons for Service Rifle Competition (and don't, because you'll get gut stomped by all of the dudes running 4.5x scopes now), then nose-to-charger works, but for any other optic, wanting to deliver rapid succession shots on target, stop twisting the shoulders and your body behind and in line with the recoil - which will mean your nose comes off of the charger a LONG ways.

Knowing nothing else, but simply observing their positions, the shooter in @Ethan Verity's photo will catch recoil and recover on target MUCH more quickly than the shooter in @Charlie98's photo.

Observing his uniform, and acknowledging the AMU programming, you might imagine Staff Sergeant Payne has been thoroughly instructed on proper operation of the AR-15/M16 platform. But to catch recoil, he’s not shooting nose-to-charger in this photo:
View attachment 1190758

Alternatively, it’s pretty simple to see how little of AMU shooter Sergeant Wannamcher’s body is behind this rifle to catch recoil, and easy to see how much torque around his spine he will experience when shooting with his nose on the charger.
View attachment 1190759

Even with A1/A2 rear iron sights (which is what's being used in my picture) you still have a really good and usable sight picture with the further out eye relief, including with the smaller 300-600M peep. So long as you know to keep the front post within the ring, it works.

 

[Varminterror]

Even with A1/A2 rear iron sights (which is what's being used in my picture) you still have a really good and usable sight picture with the further out eye relief, including with the smaller 300-600M peep. So long as you know to keep the front post within the ring, it works.

But the farther away we position our eye behind the aperture, we lose the apparent magnification of the sight, which is kinda the point of that sighting system.

 

[Robert]

As other have said, rapid fire at 100y from an offhand shooting position is unrealistic for all but the more well practiced shooters. A good muzzle device will help control what little recoil the AR has, but it is not required. Just nice.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Mostly you need to put a lot more rounds down range.

Play with stances. Leaning into the rifle a bit usually helps. Muzzle brakes or suppressors will reduce recoil and thus muzzle bouncing/rise.

Optics with much magnification will tend make target reacquisition slower.

Regardless, offhand at 100 yards, Miculek type speed & accuracy isn't going to be a reality for many people besides Jerry. Most of us need to find a rythym with the rifle to score offhand hits consistently at 100 yards, which is probably going to be in the neighborhood of 1-2 seconds between shots.

I personally do not like a squared stance for rifle shooting, have better stability with a bladed stance. But that's me. We're all built different. I say this because trying to adopt what works for others, even a large majority, isn't always the best solution for you.

 

[Varminterror]

Offset feet are a very, very different thing than bladed shoulders.

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

I pulled my AR from the safe last night and shortened the stock a few clicks and tried to adopt a stance like Mr. Verity, checking my reflection in the car window and it felt as if I had better control. This was just positioning practice in my garage, no live fire. I otherwise had just always kept the stock fully extended. After having played with this shortened stock position I fully extended the stock and shouldered the weapon again and darn if it didn't feel too big as if the LOP was too big for me! So, I think perhaps you fellas have hit on something very helpful for me. I am only 5'8" so I do not have uber long arms so I am of the thought that having the stock fully extended is not the proper fit for me and may be a significant part of the problem. I have 2 buddies, both large men, that both have 300 Weatherby Mag rifles that I have shot. Their recoil was no big deal, but the LOP on the Weatherby rifles is too long for me. It is difficult for me to express this in words, but after having experimented with the shortened stock position of my M4 then returning it to fully extended it made it feel as if I was almost handling one of the Weatherbys so I think the fully extended stock length of the M4 is too long for me and just might be a significant part of my problem. More range time with a shortened stock position could only help too. I am in debt to you all for your help!

 

[243winxb]

A loose hold allows the gun to bounce in & back off the shoulder on recoil. Your hands are holding the rifle in position. The rifle feels like it's just vibrating in that position.

Muscle memory must be built and learned.  Note in video where the shooters hands are on the rifle.

Like here-

Iron sights- focus on the front sight.

 

[doubleh]

Delete.