Am I dumb or am I missing something here?

[Phetro]

I would say that:

-Sub-MoA rifles are uncommon
-Sub-MoA ammunition is common, but only in handloaded rounds
-Sub-MoA shooters are rare indeed.

For the rifle, the best out-of-the-box rifle that's actually useful (read: good for more than just taking three or less shots at an animal in the woods somewhere--e.g, an "evil assault weapon") is a DPMS Panther .308. This thing is easily capable of 3/4 MoA, and possibly even .5, out of the box. Of course, using handloads for any shooting in which extreme accuracy is required is essential...

 

[JohnKSa]

Depends on your definition.

If your definition of sub-moa is that the rifle NEVER shoots a group over moa regardless of ammo choice then it's pretty hard to attain.

If your definition is that the average 10 shot group at 200 yards with a variety of factory ammo is sub-moa, that's also pretty hard to attain.

If your definition is that when you take your time and use ammo the rifle likes, you can shoot a 3 shot sub-moa group pretty much every time you take the rifle to the range, that's a bit easier.

I don't keep average accuracy specs on my rifles, nor do I typically shoot 10 shot groups. I don't get to the range with my rifles very often and when I do, I usually spend most of the time sighting in/picking ammo and then I use the rest shooting a few groups--maybe 2 to 4 three shot groups.

If I take a rifle to the range and can find some commercial ammo it likes, and if in the course of running through 20-40 rounds of the ammo it likes, I can bear down and shoot a 3 shot submoa group with the rifle and the other groups are in the neighborhood of moa then I feel good about saying that the rifle will shoot submoa.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I have a few rifles that are pretty acurate or at least I think they are.
At 200 yards they will put the round where I call it. I find what messes me up is either my bad shot or the wind moving me around left to right or the dang light changes that effect elevation. I will catch them most of the time but not always.
Now I will do some practice and get good groups but I usually judge my groups on what I put on the target on match day. But that is 20 shots in any condition with other rifles going off beside me. Now being prone slung up works well for me and I shoot better groups laying on the ground than on a bench. But that is because that is what I am used to I guess.

now I will get the 1 moa groups over 20 shots once in awhile at 200 yards with my open sighted ar15 but most of the time it is like 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 as it does not take much of a mistake to shoot a wide 10 in the wind or just screw up the shot. like dang that was stupid and you know it is a 10 at 1 o'clock. or that its a 9 at 3 (LOL).

Now when I start the group if it is someplace in the middle 1 minute I will usually leave it alone unless the conditions call for a change. yeah it cost me a few X's most of the time but if my low shots are mid ring 10's and my high shots are mid ring X's why mess with it.
I do hand load and after the first couple of years of shooting I settled on a few pet loads but I also experiment and to tell the truth sometimes I get some groups that are really scary or wierd. I have one saved target that like 13 or 14 of the 20 are right in a line right threw the middle of the target and I mean in a line. It gave me agood example of how the wind changed the impact on a windy day when I saw the target real well. Maybe I will post it sometime.

Gotta go to work bye

 

[_N4Z_]

yep

i too think like fishermen, there are many shooters out there who may stretch the truth a bit.

few weeks back i shot a 6+" group of 20 onto cardboard at 100 yards with my ak. 3 of those 20 were a small clover leaf. So some of that 20 shots was sub MOA. weeeheeeee!!!

 

[qajaq59]

Jon, this wont do you much good while hunting, but it might be helpful at the range. Take some masking tape or ribbon with you and hang about a 3 foot piece on the bottom of your target so you can see the wind direction and strength.
Where we shoot our benches are pretty well sheltered from the wind, but our 200 yard targets are wide open, so that is how we figure out where it is coming from, and roughly, how fast.