I've been to an Appleseed shoot before. However, they seldom have them here in SW Idaho. I really enjoyed it and I think he would too. Unfortunately they one time a year they host it is right around Halloween. And being college kids we like to party. The one time I went, I was kind of hungover, 3 hrs of sleep and it was dang cold. But still fun even though I shot poorly but I had one excellent group.
Am I wrong in this? (Mosin Nagant Question)
- Thread starter Big_E
- Start date
- Status
Ash
Member
The first rifle is a Czech-issued VZ-54/91 sniper rifle whereas the second is a Finnish 28/76 target/sniper rifle, with base, mount, and Finnish scope. Believe it or not they're both bone-stock rifles.
TurtlePhish
Member
My friend isn't even really looking for a Mosin, he just brought it up as an option. He really just wants a long range rig I think.
It's hard for me to figure out what he wants exactly. Most of the conversations have been through text messaging and he has been changing his mind a lot. First, it was something about .22 WMR, then it was a gun he can use for varmints, deer and long range, then it was something else, then it was a Mosin. Idk what will be next.
I can finally sit down and discuss it this weekend with him. Unless he brings up a .357 SAA again. I think he just wants a cheap rifle, that is affordable to shoot and can shoot long range. He needs to learn that in a toolbox, you have more than one tool and some of them are variations of the others.
Ahh, what it's like to be new to something and have so many questions and ideas.
**He did say he really liked the classic military look of the MN and such rifles. But then again comes the issue of scoping. A war relic with a modern scope on it looks funny (imho of course). I said buy a Mannlicher stock CZ and be done with it.
If it were me though and I was looking for the same things he was: I'd have a standard mil-surp, a .22 WMR, a Savage or something for long range and something cheap to hunt deer with. He has a decent amount of money, since he just landed a pretty decent job for a kid out of school.
It's hard for me to figure out what he wants exactly. Most of the conversations have been through text messaging and he has been changing his mind a lot. First, it was something about .22 WMR, then it was a gun he can use for varmints, deer and long range, then it was something else, then it was a Mosin. Idk what will be next.
I can finally sit down and discuss it this weekend with him. Unless he brings up a .357 SAA again. I think he just wants a cheap rifle, that is affordable to shoot and can shoot long range. He needs to learn that in a toolbox, you have more than one tool and some of them are variations of the others.
Ahh, what it's like to be new to something and have so many questions and ideas.
**He did say he really liked the classic military look of the MN and such rifles. But then again comes the issue of scoping. A war relic with a modern scope on it looks funny (imho of course). I said buy a Mannlicher stock CZ and be done with it.
If it were me though and I was looking for the same things he was: I'd have a standard mil-surp, a .22 WMR, a Savage or something for long range and something cheap to hunt deer with. He has a decent amount of money, since he just landed a pretty decent job for a kid out of school.
Last edited:
Ash
Member
Believe it or not, the majority of Mosins are well above the $100 mark. The cheap ones sit at $130 - 91/30's. Mosin carbines are in the $200 range. Finns are at the $300 and up range. Cheap Norincos has the same meaning these days.
If you convert a standard Mosin for scope use, you'll also need to modify the bolt handle.
My modified Mosin with cutback barrel, sights removed, Rock Solid long bolt handle, Rock Solid scope mount, Boyds stock, and Leupold 3x9 VX1 glass shoots well, but it'd be cheaper to buy a Remington & add glass.
Denis
My modified Mosin with cutback barrel, sights removed, Rock Solid long bolt handle, Rock Solid scope mount, Boyds stock, and Leupold 3x9 VX1 glass shoots well, but it'd be cheaper to buy a Remington & add glass.
Denis
If I pay my money for a gun, it is my right to to with it as I see fit, and that includes chopping it.
All this wailing about saving these precious Mosin Nagants gets tiresome for me, they were a tool of which many, many, millions were made. They are cheap for a reason, they are well, cheap in price and cheaply made, with enough faults to warrant a book. Bores run from .307" to .316"+. The vast majority of Russian rifles currently for sale are refurbs (refinished, AKA bubbarized) with counter drilled muzzles, so IMO, any historical collector value for such is nil.
All this wailing about saving these precious Mosin Nagants gets tiresome for me, they were a tool of which many, many, millions were made. They are cheap for a reason, they are well, cheap in price and cheaply made, with enough faults to warrant a book. Bores run from .307" to .316"+. The vast majority of Russian rifles currently for sale are refurbs (refinished, AKA bubbarized) with counter drilled muzzles, so IMO, any historical collector value for such is nil.
Edarnold
Member
Ash, before you go betting the farm on your Finn 28/30 against a K-31, note that I specified the Swiss GP-11 ammunition, which on testing has been found to be equal to US National Match in intrinsic accuracy. I doubt you are going to find any 7.62x54R that equals that combination in a surplus sardine can.
The Finns made some fine barrels: the K-31 barrels are by SIG or Hammerli. Sorry, but over a sample of rifles and ammunition of each type, it's no contest.
IMHO
You say he is a small guy, well this is all I got to say.............
http://www.thedarkpaladin.com/russiansnipers.htm
http://www.thedarkpaladin.com/russiansnipers.htm
mljdeckard
Member
I don't care if someone chops a piece of history, if similar pieces of history can be had for $95. This isn't anything priceless or irreplaceable here.
Yes, you can tweak, tune, modify, and test a Nagant to the limit, and you will have.....pretty much an out of the box modern hunting rifle. I tell people, there are plenty of decent modern rifles in great cartridges in the pawn shops. It would be nearly impossible to do worse than a stock Nagant.
Yes, you can tweak, tune, modify, and test a Nagant to the limit, and you will have.....pretty much an out of the box modern hunting rifle. I tell people, there are plenty of decent modern rifles in great cartridges in the pawn shops. It would be nearly impossible to do worse than a stock Nagant.
Tempest 455
Member
FWIW, my original K31 is as accurate as my match grade Garand w/ Kreiger barrel.
ssyoumans
Member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 709
I just picked up a 1944 K31, wish me luck finding affordable GP-11 ammo for it. That is the achilles of the K31, $0.60/round for Berdan primed GP-11, plus shipping. Only 2 boxer primed are Privi and Wolf Gold at $0.75-$1.1/round.
The GP-11 ammo is suppose to be match grade, so I guess it is in line with Federal GMM, but at least GMM is boxer primed . Either is far from Surplus ammo available for other calibers.
The GP-11 ammo is suppose to be match grade, so I guess it is in line with Federal GMM, but at least GMM is boxer primed . Either is far from Surplus ammo available for other calibers.
Ash
Member
You use Swiss ammo, I'll use Finnish ammo. Apples and apples. Insisting I use machine gun ammo is silly.
Soviet bores were .310-.311. Finnish bores were at their tightest .308-.309 for some models, 310 for others.
A man can do what ever he bloody well pleases with his military rifle he buys. He can also take a dump on an original 1700's Indenture. Hou can use a French Cuirassier blade as a machete.
But when he dies, he still dies. Cut-up rifles will be what is left.
Sporterized, hacked, or otherwise defaced arms such as these have virtually no value on the second hand market, where they invariably end up. Why not mess with one of those?
As to refurbs having no value or history, check this out:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?280027-Help-Identify-Family-Heirloom
Looks like quite an interesting history with that refurb.
Odd, though, that the Garands, 1911's, M1 Carbines on the market, and the like, are seen to have history when they have been through the very same kind of rebuilding program...
Soviet bores were .310-.311. Finnish bores were at their tightest .308-.309 for some models, 310 for others.
A man can do what ever he bloody well pleases with his military rifle he buys. He can also take a dump on an original 1700's Indenture. Hou can use a French Cuirassier blade as a machete.
But when he dies, he still dies. Cut-up rifles will be what is left.
Sporterized, hacked, or otherwise defaced arms such as these have virtually no value on the second hand market, where they invariably end up. Why not mess with one of those?
As to refurbs having no value or history, check this out:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?280027-Help-Identify-Family-Heirloom
Looks like quite an interesting history with that refurb.
Odd, though, that the Garands, 1911's, M1 Carbines on the market, and the like, are seen to have history when they have been through the very same kind of rebuilding program...
Last edited:
Joshua M. Smith
Member
Hello,
My Mosin is under 1MOA with handloads now, and close to that with surplus.
It is a Russian M91/30 I did some Finnish modifications on. It really does not take much to make these rifles shoot well!
Please see
Accurizing the Mosin-Nagant Rifle
and
Accurizing the Mosin-Nagant Rifle, Part II: A Year Later
I'm sure this will help your friend in his decision.
The rifle is not going to be as accurate as today's target rifles, but it is a good base if you want a push-feed system. The Finns and Russians have been winning matches with these things for years.
Regards,
Josh
My Mosin is under 1MOA with handloads now, and close to that with surplus.
It is a Russian M91/30 I did some Finnish modifications on. It really does not take much to make these rifles shoot well!
Please see
Accurizing the Mosin-Nagant Rifle
and
Accurizing the Mosin-Nagant Rifle, Part II: A Year Later
I'm sure this will help your friend in his decision.
The rifle is not going to be as accurate as today's target rifles, but it is a good base if you want a push-feed system. The Finns and Russians have been winning matches with these things for years.
Regards,
Josh
06
Member
Have a few and they shoot satisfactory. Nothing breath taking but not slouches either. If you want to build something then pick up a nice tight Mauser action, rebarrel, do your stock work, tweak the trigger, and put on some good glass. That or buy a Savage bolt and start shooting.
Joshua M. Smith
Member
Mr Rogers said:
Why is this always said? Because the rifle is Russian?
It's simply not true. A typical Mauser and a typical Mosin will shoot about the same.
A typical Finnish Mosin will shoot circles around a typical Mauser.
Josh
lefteyedom
Member
People please!!
We need Mosin if for no other reason than for home projects for the youth of America. Where else is a person going to learn basic gunsmithing skills if not on a $100 rifle?
Grandpa was able to get a 30/40 krag, P17, or even a 03 Springfield and spend hours in the shop building into a hunting rifle. All the while not spending a weeks pay. Why shouldn't his grandson have the same opportunity?
As for though that are crying that chopping up a Mosin is destroying history, It is not, it is simply adding to the value of the one that have not been converted. Once Mosin are rare enough that they can command $800 to $1200 the one that are left will be protected by collectors.
I smile everytime I see someone post a Youtube video of their "custom Mosin". Nothing could be more American than turning a weapon of war in to hunting rifle.
Just saying
We need Mosin if for no other reason than for home projects for the youth of America. Where else is a person going to learn basic gunsmithing skills if not on a $100 rifle?
Grandpa was able to get a 30/40 krag, P17, or even a 03 Springfield and spend hours in the shop building into a hunting rifle. All the while not spending a weeks pay. Why shouldn't his grandson have the same opportunity?
As for though that are crying that chopping up a Mosin is destroying history, It is not, it is simply adding to the value of the one that have not been converted. Once Mosin are rare enough that they can command $800 to $1200 the one that are left will be protected by collectors.
I smile everytime I see someone post a Youtube video of their "custom Mosin". Nothing could be more American than turning a weapon of war in to hunting rifle.
Just saying
caribou
Member
Target ammo from the Soviet Union for sniper rifles comes in 440rd "spam cans", 2 to a crate, as well, there's Biathlon and Target ammo in 20 rd box's sealed into cans, 360 per can, all recent production, not Soviet era. The Factory 188 is Soviet era, made for SVD's and such.
Look up 7.62X54r 'Extra" and factory 188 7.62X54r
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.a...7.62x54R+182grn+FMJ+Match+20rd+Box&groupid=40
http://www.sgammo.com/product/selli...x54r-sellier-bellot-match-174-grain-bthp-ammo
http://www.sgammo.com/product/surpl...tary-surplus-ammo-1976-factory-188-wood-crate
The Mosin Nagant has been used in dozens of Olympic shooting matches, as well as international shooting matches. Its catching on here in the US only recently.
Look up 7.62X54r 'Extra" and factory 188 7.62X54r
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.a...7.62x54R+182grn+FMJ+Match+20rd+Box&groupid=40
http://www.sgammo.com/product/selli...x54r-sellier-bellot-match-174-grain-bthp-ammo
http://www.sgammo.com/product/surpl...tary-surplus-ammo-1976-factory-188-wood-crate
The Mosin Nagant has been used in dozens of Olympic shooting matches, as well as international shooting matches. Its catching on here in the US only recently.
Last edited:
Ash
Member
Think $140 rifle these days.
Gun smithing skills are better applied to $75 bolt action shotguns and store-brand 22's.
Simo Hayha - credited with 505 kills, use a Finnish M28 as his primary sniper's rifle - with no scope. The M28 was a combat rifle, not tuned target rifle. They also do all they need to today without any modifications.
Pig? Really?
Gun smithing skills are better applied to $75 bolt action shotguns and store-brand 22's.
Simo Hayha - credited with 505 kills, use a Finnish M28 as his primary sniper's rifle - with no scope. The M28 was a combat rifle, not tuned target rifle. They also do all they need to today without any modifications.
Pig? Really?
TurtlePhish
Member
I can operate the bolt on my PU with one or two fingers quite easily, and the bolt slides in the receiver a lot better than any other rifle I can think of. And have you ever taken a look at a nice old M91 or most pre-war 91/30s? Their machining is absolutely excellent and the stampings on them are quite beautiful.
What kind of Mosin do you own? I'm going to guess a particularly rough wartime 91/30, Izhevsk, '42-'44 date.
BSA1
member
So many naysayers.
I can only imagine what they have to say about it being to hit a target at 600 yards with a black powder cartridge rifle.
The Ruskies managed to beat the Germans using a rifle that was considered old and out-of-date. Then they put a scope on it and sniped the Nazis.
But of course todays shooters know that old surplus rifles are inaccurate. Why it is just impossible for a century old (120) design to shoot accurately at long distances.
I can only imagine what they have to say about it being to hit a target at 600 yards with a black powder cartridge rifle.
The Ruskies managed to beat the Germans using a rifle that was considered old and out-of-date. Then they put a scope on it and sniped the Nazis.
But of course todays shooters know that old surplus rifles are inaccurate. Why it is just impossible for a century old (120) design to shoot accurately at long distances.
Ash
Member
An Enfield, with cock-on-closing will be much easier to open. But that has nothing to do with manufacturing quality. And, Mosins outside the desperate days of 1942-43 are usually well-machined. I know, I have them, plus a BSA SMLE and a Fazarkerly #4 (and once had a #4 Mk2), plus Mausers, Carcanos and the like.
Even on rough-machined 1943 Izhevsk Mosins, the external machining was rough, but the internal parts were as well-machined as any other. Cosmetics mattered little. Machining on the bolts has always been top notch, and equal to Enfields.
Cock-on-opening with a rather short bolt does not bad machining make.
Even on rough-machined 1943 Izhevsk Mosins, the external machining was rough, but the internal parts were as well-machined as any other. Cosmetics mattered little. Machining on the bolts has always been top notch, and equal to Enfields.
Cock-on-opening with a rather short bolt does not bad machining make.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Taken from the original post in the thread:
While accuracy at 600 yards is not defined it leaves a lot to the imagination. A match target: MR-1 target - "Target, Rifle, Competition Mid-Range." Used in 600-yard matches only. Has a X with a 6" diameter and a 10 ring with a 12" diameter.
A typical Mosin Nagant (a good one) should deliver about 3 MOA or the ability to place 3 to 5 rounds in about a 3 inch diameter at 100 yards. Some do better and with some placing 3 to 5 rounds in a large pizza box at 100 yards is normal. So if a typical and good rifle can shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards what will that same group be at 600 yards? Assume no wind and perfect conditions (good luck on that).
Most of the post in this thread seem to run with what can be expected of a Mosin Nagant rifle. Some shoot better than 3 MOA while some are in the pizza box. Overall the rifle does exactly what it was designed and built to do. It is a battle rifle made to function in every clime and place that the troops can take a gun. Nobody is saying the rifle can't be used as a sniper rifle as history proves differently. Beyond the Mosins there is no shortage of great battle rifles out there from WW I and WW II. Each seems to take a turn on the US Military Surplus Market. The Swedish Mausers chambered in the 6.5 X 55 are some fine rifles and like most, if you get a good one.
Anyway, looking back at the original post do I personally think a Mosin Nagant is a good solution? Nope! I do not see it grouping all that well at 600 yards, not a run of the mill surplus rifle anyway. They were not designed for that and most won't do it, that being just my opinion.
This is a pretty good and humorous read on the Mosin Nagant family. The author tosses in enough humor to keep the reader interested.
Not mentioned early on was the pocket book size? Knowing what someone wants to spend as well as what group size they expect from a rifle at 600 yards goes a long way in making suggestions as to how to go about it.
Ron
- Status