American Trap shooting and other shotgun games...

[sequins]

Hello everyone,

Im a long time paper puncher who is looking to play more games. I just got a Citori 725 Sporter 30" 12 ga and I'm looking for guidance on how to get the best results in these games knowing basically nothing about them.

The club near me has skeet and american and international trap. So far I've just been doing American trap and im hitting 17-20 out of 25 birds per game and I want to do better.

What is the best shells to use? I've been using #8 but the allow #7 1/2, #8, and #9

What chokes should I use? Why? Why should I change them between games? I realize they change the pattern but I don't understand enough to know when/why to change them.

What sight picture do I want? I believe my shotgun is a 60/40 so I think that means I want the bird just over my sight, and with whatever lead is appropriate. I notice a LOT of my hits seem to glance the birds and crack them in half, but not shatter them in a puff of red smoke which is what I want to see. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks for any and all beginner tips, I look forward to trying international trap and skeet next.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I shoot trap and skeet. Gun fit and gun mount is everything in shotguns. 7.5 or 8 shot is a never ending argument. I don't believe it makes a difference one way or another from the 16 yard line. As far as chokes go, M, IM, LF, or F will all break the bird if you point the gun in the right place when you pull the trigger....Of course, so will SK and IC if you are a little quicker.

 

[Armored farmer]

Fix your feet
Swing from Your hips
Keep your head down on the stock
Swing quickly
Swing smoothly
DONT STOP YOUR SWING, until after you see the bird break
Trapshooting is a mind game. Concentrate.

 

[Thomasss]

U-tube watch "Shooting with the Remington Pros" by D Lee Braun. B/W movie will show how to maximize stance, feet position and point of aim at each trap station. 8s in the summer and 7.5 in the winter. PATTERN YOUR GUN. 30 INCH CIRCLE AT 35 YARDS AND shoot at dead center. All people shoot guns a little different. Find out IF the gun is 60/40 WHEN YOU SHOOT IT. I like 60/40, but most trap shooters like 70/30. I shoot 1 1/8ou. loads, windjammer wads, 1160 fps for 16 yard trap using IM. The father out you go the tighter the choke you need cause the pattern opens up with distance. Some people like faster 1ou loads, too. My IM is good to 24 yards(distance from you to trap house) After that I go to full. Skeet is in the other direction, real close you want much larger pattern quickly like Improved, or SKeet choke(there are skeet chokes also made just for top barrel and just for bottom barrel). You can request single shots in skeet until you get use to the sport. There are lot of books on each sport at the library, so go read them. The ideal site picture is where you are aiming at the target but the gun is shooting just in front of the target. This allows you to change your aim quickly, for example, on a windy day.

 

[entropy]

What is the best shells to use? I've been using #8 but the allow #7 1/2, #8, and #9

Any size shot allowed will work, just don't use #9's for Trap, they will never let you live it down. 9's are for Skeet. I prefer 7 1/2's, but 8's work just fine. I only shoot American Trap and Sporting Clays.

I find WInchester AA's and Remington STS or Nitro 27 (for handicap shooting) to be the best commercial ammo. The shot is hard than cheaper loads, and they have better wads. I also like that they are the best hulls to reload.

Before I answer your questions, Heed Thomasss's advice. Watch the D. Lee. Braun video. Following the advice in it will get you to 20. Armored Farmer outlined the basics that work for him, and many other trapshooters. It is much the same advice in the video, but the value in the video is the "guncam" shots. We can talk about it, but seeing it is what makes it click.

What chokes should I use? Why? Why should I change them between games? I realize they change the pattern but I don't understand enough to know when/why to change them.

American Trap; Ideally Full, but starting out with Mod. & Improved Mod. is a good idea. Skeet: If you don't have Skeet 1 and Skeet 2, IC & Mod. work. Int'l Trap: Full. They are moving faster, and get farther out. Using Skeet chokes at Intl. Trap is a waste of 25 shells, and using Full choke for Skeet makes it quite a challenge. I shoot my 18" Cylinder bore Ithaca 37 for a round of Trap every year, just to get it out. My best round doing so has been 18. (my avg. is 22.5) You need to hit 'em quick with chokes up to Light Modified. You want to adjust your pattern to the target's range when shot. In American Trap (Known elsewhere but the US and Canada as DTL, or Down The Line) the bird is usually shot at 30-35 yards from the shooter, ideally just before it peaks. (this is from the 16 yard line, it's usually 42-48 yards at the 27 yard line. If you get there, you'll know how to shoot them by then. The bird starts out at @42 MPH.
Int'l Trap, the birds fly about 60 yards, and are going much faster. They are shot in the 45 yard area, IIRC.
Skeet, they can be shot from 0 yards, (Low house from station #1, late shot. You're bascially shooting at them in self-defense at that point!) to 50 yards, (station 1 again, high house) if you are slow getting on the bird. And on the bird in Skeet usually means several feet in front of it.

A basic rule of thumb for pattern size is 1 inch per yard; tighter chokes will be a little less. So in 16 yd. Trap, your pattern is usually about 2 1/2 feet at 30 yards.

What sight picture do I want? I believe my shotgun is a 60/40 so I think that means I want the bird just over my sight, and with whatever lead is appropriate. I notice a LOT of my hits seem to glance the birds and crack them in half, but not shatter them in a puff of red smoke which is what I want to see. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

POI is relative to the shooter. Your shotgun might shoot 60/40 (60% of the shot over the bead, 40% under) for you, but your buddy might get 70/30, or 50/50. This is part of the reason stock fit is so important. Example; My Ljutic shoots 70/30 for me with the adjustable comb all the way down. This is perfect for me. When I got the gun, it had the comb raised some, and it shot 80/20, and I was struggling with it. I pulled the washers out of the comb, and all of a sudden I was running them!

You are doing nothing wrong, and don't get so stuck on the "They all have to be smokeballs!" mentality. Yes, smokeballing them is satisfying, and good feedback that your pattern is centered on the bird. But this early in it, don't get too stuck on getting 25 smokeballs, 25 chipped birds is the same score. Work on the basics first as Armored Farmer pointed them out.

Remember, its not that they are hard to hit, it that they are so easy to miss. Also remember, it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun and relaxing.

 

[sequins]

thanks for the tips. I keep reading more and more but a lot of running debates it seems in the shotgun community.

I got some 7/8oz #7 1/2, 1oz #7 1/2, and 1 1/8oz #7 1/2 to try. I was using #8 1oz before.

 

[entropy]

You'll find the 7/8 oz. loads are less forgiving of being off the bird with the center of the pattern. 1 oz. and 1 1/8, it's harder to tell them apart until you get to the 22 yard line. I've shot 1 oz. loads in Annie Oakleys and broke birds at 60 yards, shooting from about 30-40 yards back from the Trap, but it gets iffy that far out.

 

[toivo]

I use 7.5 or 8 shot, depending on what's available. Improved Modified choke. The mantra is "Keep your head down and your eye on the bird." It mostly works for me.

I'm still only a 20-ish shooter in trap, though, so I don't know if you want to take my advice.

 

[Scribner]

Save your premium shells for when a failure to fire would knock you out of competition. At 17/25, promo loads will work great.

 

[Seitz 555]

As many before have stated, learn with promo shells and save your premium shells for any competition you may enter. As entropy said, 1oz loads will definitely do the job. That said, Leo Harrison used to say he shot 1 1/8oz loads because the rules wouldn’t let him shoot a 1 1/4 oz load.

 

[entropy]

He did say that, but Leo was more than big enough to shoot thousands of 1 1/4 loads a day if he wanted to!

 

[Jim Watson]

It has been some years since I shot serious Trap, I still get out for a little casual shooting.
I started with Full choke, ended up at Modified for 16 yard singles.
I think Full comes into play at middle yardage Handicap and the second bird on Doubles. I had a screw choke O/U that I shot Improved Cylinder and Full for Doubles, I was pretty quick on the first target but it took me a while to find the second shot.

I tried all the shot sizes, including the then-new 8 1/2, but concluded that my barrels were best served with no. 8s. When I started 1 1/8 oz was standard, but people came to realize that an ounce was enough for 16 yard singles. (International is 24 grams, 27/32 oz, but at high velocity for their fast targets.)

We read a lot about gun fit, but given a stock height and rib pitch that lets you see the target as you break it on a straightaway and a length that does not bind up your swing or bump your nose, you will be OK.

I think some coaching would be helpful. Also, if he locks the trap down and you shoot a box of straightaways, you can learn what the barrel vs target should look like. Then a steady dose of same angles to get a handle on lead. Jumping around trying to learn on a regular round with all targets different is a slow process.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have been shooting Trap for over 20 years.

I use 2 3/4" 2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 ounces of #8. You will get about 50 or so more pellets in the same load with #7 /12 but there will be bigger holes in your pattern. A lot of shells don't put the dram equivalent on the box anymore, instead they list velocity. The standard velocity for that load is 1145 fps.

Many guys prefer an Improved Modified for Trap. Slightly tighter than a Modified choke.

I learned to shoot Trap with my Dad's old Browning Double Auto. It had a full choke. These days my go to Trap gun is my Winchester Model 12 with 30" barrel and full choke. It was made in 1948, it is two years older than me. With a full choke I have to be on target a little bit better than with a IM choke because the pattern does not spread out as much.

I need to update this photo, I had an adjustable butt plate installed a few years ago.






If you are breaking the target in half you are not hitting it with a lot of pellets. Picture the shot stream as a huge bullet about 30" in diameter and about 10 feet long. That's what happens to the shot after it has traveled about 30 yards or so, which is about where you will be hitting your targets from the 16 yard line. You want the target to fly into the shot stream right in the middle. That way it will be clobbered by dozens of pellets. If you break off a few pieces of the target at its rear, you were behind the target. If you break off a few pieces at the front, you were in front of the target. Likewise, if you break off some pieces at the top of the target your were over the target and if you break off some pieces at the bottom of the target you were under it.

Your Citori 725 Sporter is ideal for skeet and hunting. Less than ideal for Trap. Generally speaking, a Trap gun points up a little bit when mounted. With a gun set up for Trap, you want to see a little bit of rib like a ramp when you mount the gun. A skeet or field gun will be more flat shooting. With your gun you will probably be better off covering the target with your muzzle, rather than keeping the muzzle under the target. You want to always fire before the target arcs over and heads toward the ground.

The most important thing is to nestle the stock firmly against your shoulder and keep your cheek glued to the stock. After more than 20 years shooting Trap I still sometimes unconsciously lift my head on a straight away shot to get a better look at the target. Guaranteed to shoot over the target. Keep your cheek glued to the stock.

Don't worry much about leading the target. Develop a natural swing and you will naturally lead the target. In Trap only the hard lefts and hard rights really need the shooter to lead the target. And not very much, maybe four feet or so. All other targets I don't even think about lead. When I see the target cross my muzzle I pull the trigger, and keep swinging.

 

[Armored farmer]

That said, Leo Harrison used to say he shot 1 1/8oz loads because the rules wouldn’t let him shoot a 1 1/4 oz load.

but Leo was more than big enough to shoot thousands of 1 1/4 loads a day if he wanted to!

I was only acquainted with Leo III, but he was one of my most admired shooters. We were shooting some of the bigger shoots and state shoots when he was coming on strong. In his early years he shot 1100s. It wasn't uncommon to see him strip one on the sidewalk and replace a part. I have seen him get to a shoot late, sign up and get squadded wiith a couple of newbies or a kid, in the rain, and just MASH 20OX200.
In his later years he shot a Ljutic and then a Beretta. He always shot a good score and was humble about it.

We spoke to each other a few times, he was a farm boy too, and we both had Allis Chalmers tractors on the farm.
He was a master of shooting his own targets despite what was going on around him. That takes confidence and concentration, and he had both.

 

[Random 8]

Trap is a learning process. There are many parts to proper fundamentals, I'll try to skim them here. You'll really need a good book and/or a GOOD mentor (lots will have bad advice that may ingrain bad habits in your form.

Basic stance: Back foot squared to trap house at aprox 90 degrees with a comfortable spread. Front foot pointed at your "break zone" assuming worst angle cross per station. Weight forward over your leading knee. I see many rifle shooters lean back or straight up as you would in offhand high power. This is not desired in shotgun, as it will constrict your lateral movement. Some guys shoot an exaggerated forward lean. I don't like it, makes you too front heavy and messes with your rising swing and follow through. Watch some of the best shooters at your club and emulate their stance.

Gun mounted starting lead: At station 3, you should be centered over the trap house, a couple feet above. 2 and 4, at the left and right corners of the house. 1 and 5, about 2 feet left or right of the house corner, and a foot up. Cheat the starting lead down a little with a tailwind. This will give you, and more importantly your hand-eye-brain relay, a head start on hard quartering birds. Take your time on the straight birds, they are the easiest to miss! When you get in a groove, you tend to miss "straight" birds from the left and right stations by slapping the trigger too early before the gun is on them.

Follow through: Learn to do this religiously. It's not a race to unload the gun and put it at port. A good trick is to shoot a couple of rounds, and follow the bird if missed or biggest piece if hit, all the way to the ground. Doing this through a couple rounds will hardwire the muscle memory and make follow through automatic. If you feel yourself lifting a cheek at the shot or dropping the gun, and looking to see what you missed, repeat the exercise for a round.

Lead and swing. Very subjective on lead. Depends a lot on how far out your birds are at the shot, and angle of quarter. You'll just have to dial this in by practice. Vertical lead will change with wind conditions. A headwind will make targets rise faster and sink slower, a tail wind will keep them flat and even falling if you wait too long. On hard rights and lefts, I find myself swinging so hard, I nearly lose my balance on the shot. My whole body above the knees follows the bird. When you feel this uncomfortable feeling on a hard swing, you're doing it right. It's not a rifle, get your hips into the swing!

Aiming: Don't. You use the beads (2 are good for trap) to dial in your consistent hold before you call pull. The bead should be nearly invisible as you track a bird. You look past the beads, opposite of iron sight rifle shooting.

Speed: Fast is better. Your pattern is more full, and the birds don't have enough time to be severely effected by wind and air pockets. Shoot as fast as you feel you're on the bird. Practice taking them sooner before your brain has a chance to think and miss up a perfectly good shot.

Chokes, shot, shells, guns, etc. : If you have a proper fitting shotgun, shells are basically irrelevant. I'd start with a Mod choke and work on taking the birds faster. You should be breaking them well before the apex. #8 shot is a safe choice. I prefer 1 oz at around 1120 FPS. I don't like recoil, and this light load breaks plenty clay. A cheap gun that fits you well will do you better than an expensive one that doesn't. Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[entropy]

If you break off a few pieces of the target at its rear, you were behind the target. If you break off a few pieces at the front, you were in front of the target. Likewise, if you break off some pieces at the top of the target your were over the target and if you break off some pieces at the bottom of the target you were under it.

Neil Winston disproved this years ago.

https://www.trapshooters.com/thread...-break-reading-hosted-by-neil-winston.498329/
Ignore the ignorant OP, but read what he quotes from Neil.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I beg to disagree.

If a hard right target only has few pieces break off at it's rear, to the left, and nothing else goes to the right, clearly my pattern was mostly behind it and I only nicked it with a few pellets on the right side of the pattern.

Likewise, if a hard left target only has a few pieces break of at its rear, to the right, clearly my pattern was mostly to the right of the target and I only nicked it with a few pellets on the left side of the pattern.

How could it be other wise?

 

[entropy]

How could it be other wise?

Rotation, for starters.

Did you read Neil's posts that RW quoted?

How about this one?

"Thanks, Randy. In that last video, the shot is coming from the right, not the left as I wrote. I regret the error. But the story is unchanged. Target-break reading is a compelling illusion, but just an illusion.

But why do people believe it? Because it seems to work. The break tells you that you were a little high so you shoot a fraction lower and the target breaks fine and so the diagnosis was correct.

But you have to consider that you are breaking in the mid 90's and so the probability that the next target will break is over 9 in 10. So if you had changed nothing the bird would have almost certainly broken, so the apparent "confirmation" is spurious, unrelated to your "reading" of the last break.

Here's how to test that: Read a clearly "directional" break, say a piece "driven down." Don't "correct" for that; just make the following shot as you normally would. Remember the result. Then do it again. And again. And again. Eventually, you will understand that the piece "driven down" was a result of the air randomly interacting with an odd-shaped, spinning chunk of clay which was just trying to make you believe something that seemed so true, but wasn't. In the end, you won't miss your ability to read target breaks at all.

Neil"

Believe what you will. Sure, when we are shooting Annie Oakleys, we will say to each other, "You shot the beak of that one!" Or, " Tail feathers!" , but it's all in fun. Reading breaks as such isn't a reliable method of how you are hitting them. A Garmin or ShotKam is more accurate. Smokeballing them is more accurate still, that means you put the "hot core" (the inner 10" of the pattern) on the bird.

 

[sequins]

Thanks so much for the replies. The first thousand shells arrived today and I'm excited to see how I do this weekend.

Last time I had a box of shells at my feet that I dragged between stations, this time I'll have a shell pouch, so I'm already making progress.

 

[TBL004]

Lots of good advice. The one suggestion that hasn't been discussed in detail is patterning your trap gun (Thomaass mentioned patterning in post #4). While many trapshooters may say my gun shoots 60/40 or 70/30 but how does that relate to your sight picture? By patterning your trap gun you can visualize the shot pattern and determine how high your gun shoots. I have my gun (Krieghoff K80 unsingle) set to shoot 12" (inches) high at 30 yards (where most 16 yard yargets break). I don't know if that translates to 60/40 or what but I do know what sight picture I need to consistently hit any given angle target. Patterning your trap gun is merely determining your point of impact. Once you know this you're well on your way to consistently breaking targets at any yardage.

 

[Milkmaster]

I have my routine that I try to make the same each time to the trap range. For me...I find that in a group when I must take more time between shots I score better. When no one else is there and I am shooting alone, sometimes I get in a hurry and start missing birds. Try to be patient and deliberate with your routine. It helps with my own concentration. Good luck!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

entropy:

You tell me.

I am on station five and I get a hard right target. I only break a few pieces off the tail end of the target (the rear, or left side from my vantage point) Nothing else, no chips or pieces off the center or leading edge of the target.

Where was my pattern?

I tried watching the videos, all I got was a message that said Video Not Found.

 

[entropy]

The one suggestion that hasn't been discussed in detail is patterning your trap gun

The definitive treatise on patterning:
https://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf

I was fortunate enough to have met Neil Winston, and observe him at work at the patterning board at Winchester Metro in Blaine, MN. He was very methodical in testing and analyzing the results. I learned more about what happens between when the trigger is pulled and when the bird breaks (or not) in the 2 hours I listened to him answer my questions than I had learned from anyone else, and I had been a 92% avg. shooter by that point.

The 13 yd. POI testing is the quick & dirty way of figuring out your POI with any particular shotgun. One should then go on to test the shells they'll be shooting for patterns at 30-35 yards for 16 yard shooting, and 42-47 yards for 27 yards shooting if a handicap shooter. (even if you are not a back fencer, which I am not.)

And to answer Driftwood John, Unless you had someone behind you who can see the shot column in flight, (I can in some conditions, but not all; when I advise a shooter where his pattern was, it is always based in this, not 'reading the break', which has been proven a fallacy.) or are using a Garmin Xero or ShotKam, you simply don't know.

Here's what I mean; if you crack the the target with a few pellets, you will get a weak break anywhere on the the patterns perimeter. Where the chips go is not quite random, but nearly so, as rotation is one factor, where on the target those few pellets hit, not where those pellets are in the pattern is another. If a couple pellets on the 4 o'clock of the pattern hit the top side of the bird, it will break a few chips off the top of the target (or depending on the angle of incidence may just bounce off and/or push the target) but a 'target break reader' conclude incorrectly that he hit the bird with the very bottom of the pattern. Or vice versa. If a couple pellets on the 11:00 of the pattern hit the bottom of the bird, the break reader will assume (you know what they say about that.) they hit it with the bottom edge of the pattern. Now add in the horizontal and depth dimensions, and it's plain to see that reading breaks is virtually impossible, and pointless anyway, unless it's seeing smokeballs; THEN you know what part of the pattern you are hitting the bird with. The center, as should be. Do I do it 100% the time? No. I did have an excellent night last night, however. Not necessarily with scores, (a couple 23's and a 22) but with the % of smokeballs. Even the peanut gallery commented on it, and I will say that seeing more and more smokeballs in your score increases one's confidence in their ability, and that's a big part of the game once you're past an average of 20.

Read all the breaks you want, like Randy Wakeman. (The man who ran them from the 27 with a 20 ga.:just ask him! ) I'll stick with Neil Winston's proven analysis of breaks.

 

[Jim Watson]

In his early years he shot 1100s. It wasn't uncommon to see him strip one on the sidewalk and replace a part.

Reminds me of Elgin Gates. He did a series of gunzine articles about shooting an 1100 at ATA, ISU, and live birds. He tried several barrels until he got one that was straight (there are a lot of crooked shotgun barrels) and patterned evenly. He went through all his frequent maintenance procedures, even a quick clean between hundreds. But buried down in the fine print was the little item that every other year, he moved his Anton stock and selected barrel to a new action.

 

[entropy]

I'd hang on to an Anton stock also! Just another reason I don't plan on selling my Ljutic.