Ammo Choice for CC use?

[45CalPal]

As the title suggests, I use a 9mm and have it loaded with JHP, I have always wondered what everyone else chose to carry in thier handguns used for self defense.

I mean Im sure no one wants to actually blow a persons lungs out thier back side and put them in the grave, I also read a lot about the FBI's penetration standards at 14".

So in my mind, is a 14" comparative depth too much for self defense?
Solid projectile or fragmenting type?

What does everyone use for this, and why?

 

[Ru4real]

Big and slow. 45 ACP 230 grain. Dudes from 1911 knew how to kill stuff without apologizing or overthinking.

Today, stopping the threat is the same thing.

 

[45CalPal]

What Im mostly getting at is the fact that if "you" were shot, and it was a thru n thru, it is more survivable, than as if it was a fragmenting RIP round.

So Im not asking what caliber and grain, But what actual type ie..Ball,HP, RIP etc..do you use to do the job and not totally (fataly) kill a person. As I have no intention to put them 6ft under, I just want to stop them and hospitalize them.

 

[Charlie98]

I carry a 9mm, it's usually loaded with Speer Gold Dots, Hornady Critical Duty, or Remington HP's. These days it's a matter of what's available. I prefer 124-135grn bullets.

As I have no intention to put them 6ft under

If I have to draw my handgun in defense of my life, that is my intention... to stop the threat. There is no other reason to draw your weapon.

 

[.308 Norma]

Solid projectile or fragmenting type?

Only two choices - "solid" or "fragmenting" type? What about "expanding" type?

 

[45CalPal]

I have been told may stories by leo friends that they wish they had hit them in a different location on the body as not to kill, and more to incapictate. Granted I know there are people attacking that deserve it, but im not a judge, But mostly they say the stress and guilt of having a death on thier concience has more weight to it than one may think.

I dont want to have to live with that kind of guilt, so threatning my life

Only two choices - "solid" or "fragmenting" type? What about "expanding" type?

Im pretty sure the hollow point HP I mentioned above covers this as it is an expanding feature...

I dont know, this is a touchy subject as no one wants a stray bullet to exit out of an asailant, the fragmenting does too much internal damage in my eyes, Im sure most dont want to actually kill them either... unless Im mistaken??

 

[rabid wombat]

The primary purpose of a self defense round is never having to use it (at least…my lifelong goal!). Reality, the purpose is to stop the threat. That is it - stop the threat. As soon as the the threat stops doing what caused you to shoot, stop shooting. Most pistol rounds are pretty weak at stopping the the threat - so, multiple shots. Poorly placed shots are pretty weak at stopping the threat. Misses are really weak at stopping the threat.

When required, shoot for center of mass, shoot until the threat is stopped, and stop shooting … but be vigilant. Regardless of bullet type - there is a real chance the shootee will die. This is a known hazard for both parties (shooter and shootee).

Moving forward, as the shooter - you are responsible for every round you put down range. Every round! Some bullet type penetrate and go further down range - you are responsible. Some enter and stay - you are responsible. Some miss and bounce and go further down range - you are responsible. Some miss and deform and do not go down range as far - you are responsible.

I would suggest some self reflection prior to worrying about ammo selection.

 

[1942bull]

I have carried different loads depending in caliber. In my 38vACP I loaded Lehigh Defense Extreme Penatrator because jhp is unlikely to open so penetration is critical. In my 9mm I load 14 gr Federal HST JHP. I’m have been retired for a decade. I have lots of time and I like researching things related to ballistics. As a result I found that Federal 144 gr HST JHP is exceptionally effective fired from 3.42 inch barrel. So have adopted it because it provides excellent expansion and meets FBI penetration specifications. Imam not saying it is the best option. I am saying it is good option.

 

[45CalPal]

Moving forward, as the shooter - you are responsible for every round you put down range. Every round! Some bullet type penetrate and go further down range - you are responsible. Some enter and stay - you are responsible. Some miss and bounce and go further down range - you are responsible. Some miss and deform and do not go down range as far - you are responsible.

I would suggest some self reflection prior to worrying about ammo selection.

Thats my exact thoughts because of this knowledge, and my intent of not wanting to totally end the life of them.
So thats why I ask what the best round type is to acheave this (expected and hopeful) outcome.

 

[AK Hunter]

I don't buy anything special just off the shelf 147gr HPs in the 50 box.
If you hit them in the right place dead is dead, they can't be more dead because you bought a special round. LOL

 

[rabid wombat]

and my intent of not wanting to totally end the life of them.

You are in the fight of YOUR LIFE. This is the reason you have drawn your weapon and engaged the bad guy. It really sucks if the bad guy dies, while you save YOUR LIFE. You draw to stop the threat…if the bad guy dies as a result, so be it…if the bad guy lives as a result, so be it. You need to really reflect on carrying…

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Hard cast lead. It will penetrate the heaviest of coats. Even my 380 loads go through a 1 lb propane bottle.

 

[DeepSouth]

Gold Dots.

BTW if you are shooting at someone with a firearm their is high chance they will die.

if that’s unacceptable to you, then to be honest you may want to look into “less” lethal weapons and tactics.

they do make the glaser safety slug, I’ve never heard anyone recommend them, but you may want to look into them.

 

[DR505]

Now that I am retired I carry the same stuff as I did on duty....Remington Golden Saber in .45 ACP or Hornady Critical Duty in 9mm.

I don't worry much about over penetration since the majority of shots fired in gunfights tend to miss the target anyway.

 

[Tilos]

I have been told may stories by leo friends that they wish they had hit them in a different location on the body as not to kill, and more to incapictate. Granted I know there are people attacking that deserve it, but im not a judge, But mostly they say the stress and guilt of having a death on thier concience has more weight to it than one may think.

I dont want to have to live with that kind of guilt, so threatning my life



Im pretty sure the hollow point HP I mentioned above covers this as it is an expanding feature...

I dont know, this is a touchy subject as no one wants a stray bullet to exit out of an asailant, the fragmenting does too much internal damage in my eyes, Im sure most dont want to actually kill them either... unless Im mistaken??

Any bullet(s) that go thru and thru (as well as misses) can/will continue down range to damage others or their property.
Hit the guy mowing his lawn or the battery in his Tesla parked at the curb, both your responsibility, you OWN every shot that leaves your gun, expect to be sued....even by the perp or his family.

With all the concerns you have posted here about guilt/stress/to incapacitate/etc., I would suggest you switch to carrying pepper spray rather than a gun.
You cannot shoot to incapacitate, like aim for their kneecap/etc. without the possibility of killing them or someone else.
You have not even considered the charges against YOU if you choose to draw and/or shoot, where the PA will challenge the ammo that you used, or the aftermarket trigger installed in your gun, etc.
Does that happen, yes.
jmo,
.

 

[TarDevil]

124 grain Speer Gold Dots

 

[jonnyc]

HSTs or Gold Dots, in 124 grain. I have some boxes of +P in the mix, but usually carry Standard Pressure.

 

[WrongHanded]

Speer Gold Dots and Federal HST are my preferences. They tend to be solid performers with any service caliber.

Regarding penetration in gel, I tend to prefer closer to 18" than to 12". I've seen enough of Paul Harrell's meat targets to think the potential for over penetration with a JHP that expands is likely minimal. But if faced with a dangerous four-legged animal (like a large dog), I'd still like to reach vitals in a head on charge.

Just my personal preferences of course.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Home rolled 124 or 147 Gold dots.

 

[Jimster]

.45 Critical Duty or FMJ ball ammo. My 1911s feed and spit out both equally well.

 

[Tom-R2]

Lots of great choices on the market today if you can find them SuperVel is back in business and they offer a solid copper HP that really expands well in testing (and in real situations from what I've heard).

 

[Atavar]

Hard cast lead. It will penetrate the heaviest of coats. Even my 380 loads go through a 1 lb propane bottle.

A one pound propane bottle isn’t much of an obstacle.

 

[entropy]

What Im mostly getting at is the fact that if "you" were shot, and it was a thru n thru, it is more survivable, than as if it was a fragmenting RIP round.

So Im not asking what caliber and grain, But what actual type ie..Ball,HP, RIP etc..do you use to do the job and not totally (fataloly) kill a person. As I have no intention to put them 6ft under, I just want to stop them and hospitalize them.

Why? If you are justified in using deadly force, you are justified in using deadly force. Get a beanbag gun, pepper spray, or shoot them in the knee, then. Justified self defense is about neutralizing the threat. There is the possibility of killing someone if attempting to do so with a firearm. I'm a pretty good shot, but I don't think I can 100% of the time in the type of conditions self-defense often happens (low light, possibility of others in line of fire, etc.) put the rounds exactly where needed to 'stop and hospitalize them'. So, what type of hospitalization do you want to inflict on this assailant? 6 month coma? muscular pass-through so they're out in an hour? Emergency surgery that results in a loss of 10' of intestines? roll out of the the hospital in a wheelchair as a paraplegic?
Even a 'ball' round, usually agreed to be the worst type of SD round, can take weird detours in the body, even of your aim was 'perfect' which it will NOT be. You have to accept the fact that when you use a firearm for SD, there is the possibility you may kill your attacker in the attempt to neutralize the threat they pose. If this unacceptable to you, perhaps a firearm is not the best SD tool for you.
After writing this treatise, I realize Tilos said what I was getting at here, and more.

 

[bullseye308]

I load my own 124 gold dots for 9mm. I have tested them in my gun for function, reliability, and accuracy. They excel in all 3. I have fired almost 2000 of them in my carry gun and know it will do its job if that unfortunate day should come. I didn’t go out looking for trouble and if it comes for me I’ll deal with it. Any bad guy realizes he may be injured or killed in his nefarious pursuits, and he decided the risk was worth it. I train with my gun in the event I have to prove him wrong. I pray that day never comes, but you hope for the best, and plan for the worst.

Always remember their is a lawyer tied to every bullet that leaves your barrel, you are responsible for that bullet until it stops. Many of the bad guys I see on hundreds of you tube videos and cop shows aren’t 14” deep front to back. I’d prefer something with a little less penetration and send a couple more rounds and call it a day if it comes to it. If you are forced to shoot someone, the ammo you expend will be the cheapest expense of the whole experience. That’s just my thinking on the subject, yours may differ.

 

[CDW4ME]

I would not carry FMJ in any caliber under normal circumstances.
FMJ is more likely to over penetrate and it makes a smaller hole than an expanded HP.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
380 (thank God I'm not limited to 380) HP that doesn't expand can penetrate 25'' after heavy clothes (380 FMJ won't over penetrate is mythbusted)
45 FMJ - whether one feels like 45 FMJ won't over penetrate doesn't matter. 45 HP that didn't expand went 29'' (45 FMJ won't over penetrate is mythbusted)
9mm Federal HST 124+P 18.3'' / .66 is what I've got in my Glock 17 that I carry everyday.

Expanded bullets make bigger holes, which have better ASAP potential - assuming same shot placement (gotta have that disclaimer, but I shouldn't have to, should be assumed)
Ever see someone post about how 22lr has killed more people ... Whether something is eventually lethal is not important, stopping the threat(s) ASAP is.
The flu can be lethal, but it is not quickly incapacitating on contact.
FMJ can be lethal, so can HP, but FMJ has less ASAP potential than a good HP in the same caliber due to making smaller holes.
ASAP incapacitation would be the goal if trying to stop somebody(s) from killing you; so, carry a better HP and 9mm is a good minimum.