Self-defense vs all other uses.
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dweis
Member
I own guns only for self-defense. I have two pistols and no other guns. Both my pistols are Ruger Security 9 compacts. Why two? I want to be as proficient as I can be with the pistol I stake mt life on, and I do not want to diminish that expertise by needing to switch to a different model should my EDC go out of service.
I do not hunt. I shoot at the range only to maintain my proficiency with my EDC. I am not obsessed with self-defense, but I stay prepared to defend myself. Why? Just read the news. I am not naive so I recognize that I might be in the store or market or at an event when an evil and deranged person shows up to kill people. My preparation is not an obsession. It is readiness, that which saves lives — especially mine or my family.
I think hunting, competitions, collecting are good pursuits. But those exercises do not directly improve my responsibility to myself — to protect myself. So I do not think about the best way to hunt game, win competitions. I have no desire to own more guns than I have.
The OP wrote: “So I guess my point is that often IMHO the self-defense aspects pollutes allot of threads ….” I see that comment as misguided. Is a thread about the best ammo to take a deer pure, but a thread about the best ammo to stop a threat pollution? Readers can answer that for themselves.
Finally, to address why I am so intent on self-defense, in battle I became very aware of the randomness of death and injury. You don’t have to do anything wrong to be killed or wounded. That is true in mt civilian setting too. So I stay prepared, alert, and skilled.
I do not hunt. I shoot at the range only to maintain my proficiency with my EDC. I am not obsessed with self-defense, but I stay prepared to defend myself. Why? Just read the news. I am not naive so I recognize that I might be in the store or market or at an event when an evil and deranged person shows up to kill people. My preparation is not an obsession. It is readiness, that which saves lives — especially mine or my family.
I think hunting, competitions, collecting are good pursuits. But those exercises do not directly improve my responsibility to myself — to protect myself. So I do not think about the best way to hunt game, win competitions. I have no desire to own more guns than I have.
The OP wrote: “So I guess my point is that often IMHO the self-defense aspects pollutes allot of threads ….” I see that comment as misguided. Is a thread about the best ammo to take a deer pure, but a thread about the best ammo to stop a threat pollution? Readers can answer that for themselves.
Finally, to address why I am so intent on self-defense, in battle I became very aware of the randomness of death and injury. You don’t have to do anything wrong to be killed or wounded. That is true in mt civilian setting too. So I stay prepared, alert, and skilled.
jar
Contributing Member
Or the late 1960s and early 1970s when the cities were burning and random bombings and Kent State and Greensboro Massacre and police setting attack dogs and fire hoses on people and ...
Today's "crime" just doesn't begin to measure up to crime in the past. Today is hardly the Roaring Twenties either.
But the one constant is that "Crime" news still sells.
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mcb
Member
A lot of people would agree with you, real or not, the perception by many is crime is going up. That does not change the premise of my original thread that what brings me here to discuss firearms is not self-defense in most cases. I have my fire extinguisher and CCW picked out. What I am going to hunt deer with next year is a far FAR more interesting topic to me. My plan to drag my old 106 year old Webley out to take an armadillo or two in the next few weeks is significantly more interesting than a new subcompact 9mm. Trying a new stytle of support bag at my next NRL22 match is far more appealing than the newest IWB holster tech.
If you read the industry magazines, the growth is in self-defense handguns. Those sales are rising. Shotgun numbers have been flat for the most part for many years. Anecdotally, in my state where permits are tougher, when the Covid crisis hit, cheap Turkish shotguns were very popular and selling out.
I once had a discussion with the well known editor of a major gun magazine. He said that he would like covers that had technical marksmanship or hunting orientations but an SD issue would sell 60% more.
SD oriented matches also are a touch more fun for the average person then a 10 shot in 10 minute bullseye match.
I once had a discussion with the well known editor of a major gun magazine. He said that he would like covers that had technical marksmanship or hunting orientations but an SD issue would sell 60% more.
SD oriented matches also are a touch more fun for the average person then a 10 shot in 10 minute bullseye match.
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mcb
Member
Ahh but I found USPSA was far more fun than IDPA because USPSA though based on self-defense training made the necessary allowance and changes to make it first and foremost a competitive sport with roots in self-defense. IDPA would never let go of some of it roots and thus was never as enjoyable or competitive as a sport for me as USPSA was.
IDPA is slowly morphing into USPSA light, in a little time, no reason for its existence. Folks chasing milliseconds with equipment nuances in a track meet.
Neither has relevance to SD usage except for the trigger, aiming, reload, practice, shooting cadence, and the like.
Debating the size of mag wells, weights, etc. - nothing to do with carry guns. We've been running a mini match with explicitly carry guns and gear, it's fun. Shorter barrels, no optics, real carry holsters and mag pouches. Some guy will show up with full match gear and is mocked.
Neither has relevance to SD usage except for the trigger, aiming, reload, practice, shooting cadence, and the like.
Debating the size of mag wells, weights, etc. - nothing to do with carry guns. We've been running a mini match with explicitly carry guns and gear, it's fun. Shorter barrels, no optics, real carry holsters and mag pouches. Some guy will show up with full match gear and is mocked.
I started with CCW and self defense, but recently I've had to make some adjustments in our home defense plan. I had to add a new type of CCW - the Chicken Coop Weapon. Raccoons and coyotes are more of an immediate threat than the gangs in the big city right now.
More seriously, self defense is interesting and important, but not something I see as FUN. Working up the chicken coop bug-out EOTWAWKI coyote plan still feels like fun.
More seriously, self defense is interesting and important, but not something I see as FUN. Working up the chicken coop bug-out EOTWAWKI coyote plan still feels like fun.
.38 Special
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Excellent thread topic!
In my own head, "fun guns" and "defensive weapons" are kept in completely separate files. The "defensive weapons" file is neat, orderly, and small, while the "fun guns" file is a bunch of big sloppy boxes randomly stacked all over.
Other folks, of course, are free to manage all that however they like. I will only note that there does seem to be a certain type of personality which gets a little upset with people who don't agree that personal defense is the primary purpose of gun ownership.
In my own head, "fun guns" and "defensive weapons" are kept in completely separate files. The "defensive weapons" file is neat, orderly, and small, while the "fun guns" file is a bunch of big sloppy boxes randomly stacked all over.
Other folks, of course, are free to manage all that however they like. I will only note that there does seem to be a certain type of personality which gets a little upset with people who don't agree that personal defense is the primary purpose of gun ownership.
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#1 for decades has been chasing the best EDC, i.e., Self Defense
#2 Recreation
#3 Competition, but I do very little anymore.
# 4 Collecting, which includes all of the above as well as other guns.
#5 I no longer hunt, but when I did, it was still #5. I did not chase new hardware once all of the basic guns were covered.
I definitely do not agree that SD pollutes gun threads.
#2 Recreation
#3 Competition, but I do very little anymore.
# 4 Collecting, which includes all of the above as well as other guns.
#5 I no longer hunt, but when I did, it was still #5. I did not chase new hardware once all of the basic guns were covered.
I definitely do not agree that SD pollutes gun threads.
+1
It's true chasing gear is seductive, but when the timer goes off, most are (or should be) just chasing much bigger chunks of time by just shooting & moving better. I started in IDPA because I had a speedloader-fed revolver. I was lucky to quickly figure out I needed to learn and master the game (and the revolver) before chasing gear. One never really masters the game (or a revolver), though, so I ended up shooting that revolver almost exclusively
....and that in both cases, your stuff has to, first and foremost, work. Competition is tough on gear, and is a terrific proving ground for reliability, accessibility, etc. I've seen a number of guys admirably show up with their carry gear, and find out, for the first time, they can't access their gun and/or reloads quickly, and/or their gun malfunctions when shot and/or reloaded under the pressure of a timer.
Also, formal competition, whether boxing, running or shooting, tends to improve basic skills quite significantly. While it's certainly not a given a trained boxer will prevail in a violent mano-a-mano encounter, I'd put far better odds on them than on the tough-looking gym rat who poo-poos boxing because it isn't "real-world"
I agree that competition is something one should do. It's the time fetishes that have little to do with actual SD that are not that relevant to me personally. If it is to someone, that's all well and good. Seeing a young guy run full speed between targets leads to watching some old toot like me, trying to run between targets also. The practice of shooting under time pressure is a good thing. My older cadre is more concerned with our hits as we can't do the nonshooting speed components. Also, I do think you should ring out your carry guns once in awhile
I do like to shoot steel with a Buckmark, nothing like carry but sports fun.
Reloading with carry gear is interesting, the game gear has the mags separated and spaced around your waist. Carry gear mag pouches are more compact. There's a guy who is very fast with game gear, then with his carry gear, he tries to rip out the mag at speed, throws it away and also has dislodged his spare!
You get out of competition what you want.
Snark: five is enough anyway and you never will have multiple opponents or reload, so why shoot the games. This is sarcasm folks!
I do like to shoot steel with a Buckmark, nothing like carry but sports fun.
Reloading with carry gear is interesting, the game gear has the mags separated and spaced around your waist. Carry gear mag pouches are more compact. There's a guy who is very fast with game gear, then with his carry gear, he tries to rip out the mag at speed, throws it away and also has dislodged his spare!
You get out of competition what you want.
Snark: five is enough anyway and you never will have multiple opponents or reload, so why shoot the games. This is sarcasm folks!
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mcb
Member
The time part of USPSA/IDPA was always important to me since it was part of my score but fast misses don't win and you have to be fast at everything, draw, shooting, reloading etc but no so fast you make mistakes, mistake cost heaps of time. That is important in SD too, be decisive fast enough but no so fast you make poor judgements. The biggest draw for me with USPSA and IDPA was reloads. It was the first shooting sport where reloads were part of your score, nearly all aspect of gun handling effected your score. That was a huge draw to me and why I spent most of my time shooting L-10 and Revolver. More opportunities to reload under the pressure of the clock and score. One of my biggest joys is shooting a USPSA matches with my revolver and then seeing where my score ranks in the Limited and Open divisions. I rarely came in last even in those divisions. Beating the bottom feeders with the noble round gun is always a joy and colors my opinions when the self-defense junkies start arguing revolver vs semi-auto. It's the Indian!
If I were to start telling stories about great events in my life that included firearms a USPSA match would be as close to self defense focused topic as those stories would come. Most would be set in the wood of southeast Ohio or middle Tennessee.
If I were to start telling stories about great events in my life that included firearms a USPSA match would be as close to self defense focused topic as those stories would come. Most would be set in the wood of southeast Ohio or middle Tennessee.
wcwhitey
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Good fun that also seconds as training. That is what I have always enjoyed. I have had a bunch of structured training and I was “shooting” so I found it fun and I interesting as well as practical. I have shot in the older Revolver Combat leagues and have a few trophies for Bullseye Competition. Qualified twice a year during my LE career, it was a day off of patrol and I was shooting with their ammo! Signed up for every tactical shoot and seminar I could, it was a paid day or two. Some guys never bothered. Punching paper and shooting steel is a ton of fun that also adds to skill. I am of the mind that any time spent shooting adds to overall skill. I qualify yearly for CCW and HR218. Some guys do it like it’s a trip to the dentist l. Me I am having fun popping caps. I try to shoot every week, bring something different every time but still shoot a cylinder or Mag or two out of my CCW. Gun powder therapy!
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Sing it!
Shooting a revolver in competition definitely has its challenges, and the courses of fire weren't necessarily "revolver-friendly". Nonetheless, at least in IDPA, one could do very well with a revolver (even a speedloader-fed one) - win high overall, even - if they executed better than anyone else, got their hits and avoided unforced errors. In short, be better than everyone else. I was fortunate to have started with a revolver, then, because it teaches you to shoot well if you're open to learning. My goal was always to execute and do as well as I could, but winning High Overall with my speedloader-fed revolver was always a nice feeling.
westernrover
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Self-defense is a rational justification for a firearm -- a justification to oneself in consideration of the expense and opportunity cost of purchasing and keeping a gun. It will even justify the purchase of far more guns than are necessary based on the hope that each successive purchase will afford a little advantage. What cost is too great when our very lives may be on the line? (I'm being facetious about how we could justify ourselves here).
Hunting certainly justifies some guns, but many people live where there are few hunting opportunities. Where I live, deer hunting is once-a-year at most and even then I have to win a tag in a lottery which is not every year. The bird hunting locally is poor and birds elsewhere in my state don't offer a reward for traveling for many hours and the expense of staying abroad. We don't have squirrels and the hares are jackrabbits. I do enjoy hunting, but it's definitely not a year-round thing here. I pity the urban dwellers for whom hunting of any kind is a great expense and a distant thought.
Competition is only leisure for most people. Very few people are professional competitors. For the rest of us, it's only a more intense and costly form of recreation or leisure. It's not necessary like self-defense, and it's not productive like hunting. Some people suppose that some types of competition like IDPA produces skill relevant to self-defense, but others doubt that. Many forms of competition are clearly irrelevant to any necessary or productive activity. They're games. Games with guns, which are first and foremost weapons. The gun was certainly not invented for gaming, though I'm sure games came along shortly thereafter as it surely did with archery and swordsmanship or with sticks like the quarterstaff.
Hunting certainly justifies some guns, but many people live where there are few hunting opportunities. Where I live, deer hunting is once-a-year at most and even then I have to win a tag in a lottery which is not every year. The bird hunting locally is poor and birds elsewhere in my state don't offer a reward for traveling for many hours and the expense of staying abroad. We don't have squirrels and the hares are jackrabbits. I do enjoy hunting, but it's definitely not a year-round thing here. I pity the urban dwellers for whom hunting of any kind is a great expense and a distant thought.
Competition is only leisure for most people. Very few people are professional competitors. For the rest of us, it's only a more intense and costly form of recreation or leisure. It's not necessary like self-defense, and it's not productive like hunting. Some people suppose that some types of competition like IDPA produces skill relevant to self-defense, but others doubt that. Many forms of competition are clearly irrelevant to any necessary or productive activity. They're games. Games with guns, which are first and foremost weapons. The gun was certainly not invented for gaming, though I'm sure games came along shortly thereafter as it surely did with archery and swordsmanship or with sticks like the quarterstaff.
Charlie98
Member
No problem with that here. In my mind, every task should have the best tool available at hand. I never bought a revolver with the consideration of pressing it into SD duty... I'm not a revolver guy, per se. I didn't buy my 1911's entirely with the purpose of tasking them into SD duty, although I do occasionally... and particularly my alloy 4", which I actually bought with a 50/50 SD/range purpose. I DID buy my Kahr 9mm's specifically for SD... they really aren't intended for anything else.
Back Home, Years Ago, I used to buy JHP's for some of my reloading... which in hindsight was sort of stupid. I don't hunt. At the time, I didn't carry (it was not legal where I was, back when I cared.) So maybe I had some stupid idea of using a 6" .41MAG as a home defense weapon...? I quit buying jacketed bullets, and my recreational guns shoot, largely, cast bullets, now.
Everyone has their own idea of an SD weapon, and their reasonings for such, to include how they carry them, the ammunition they are stoked with, and their training and tactics mindset. I've read some threads here and have scratched my head a time or two, and very likely someone has read my nonsense and done the very same thing. Conversely, I've read some threads and thought they were touched with brilliance... and only because it mirrored what I think or believe.
But at the end of the day, every firearm is a firearm. I wouldn't really want to go skeet shooting with a Mossberg 590... but it'll do it. Flip the coin... and I wouldn't really want to use a break action trap gun for home defense... but if it was all I had, it's better than a rock.
+1
Firearms for hunting and sport have relatively remain unchanged in so many years... minus new cartridges and updated firearms (think poly, adjustable stocks, etc.) We have come a very long way, however, from a 4" S&W model 10, or Chiefs Special in .38SPC for defense, primarily driven, I believe, by the marketplace... and for two reasons: 1) The expansion of states allowing concealed or open carry, and 2) the rise in violent crime. Those two items created a void in the market that the manufacturers rushed to fill... and that is where the market is, today.
Back Home, Years Ago, I used to buy JHP's for some of my reloading... which in hindsight was sort of stupid. I don't hunt. At the time, I didn't carry (it was not legal where I was, back when I cared.) So maybe I had some stupid idea of using a 6" .41MAG as a home defense weapon...? I quit buying jacketed bullets, and my recreational guns shoot, largely, cast bullets, now.
Everyone has their own idea of an SD weapon, and their reasonings for such, to include how they carry them, the ammunition they are stoked with, and their training and tactics mindset. I've read some threads here and have scratched my head a time or two, and very likely someone has read my nonsense and done the very same thing. Conversely, I've read some threads and thought they were touched with brilliance... and only because it mirrored what I think or believe.
But at the end of the day, every firearm is a firearm. I wouldn't really want to go skeet shooting with a Mossberg 590... but it'll do it. Flip the coin... and I wouldn't really want to use a break action trap gun for home defense... but if it was all I had, it's better than a rock.
+1
Firearms for hunting and sport have relatively remain unchanged in so many years... minus new cartridges and updated firearms (think poly, adjustable stocks, etc.) We have come a very long way, however, from a 4" S&W model 10, or Chiefs Special in .38SPC for defense, primarily driven, I believe, by the marketplace... and for two reasons: 1) The expansion of states allowing concealed or open carry, and 2) the rise in violent crime. Those two items created a void in the market that the manufacturers rushed to fill... and that is where the market is, today.
I'm glad you said that.
Best choices for self defense.
9mm, 357 Sig, 40, 45,10mm
Marginal choice for self defense, as in we only carry it discontentedly in a NPE or when we can't do better. (hint: can't and won't aint the same)
380
Suitable for SD but the platform that fires them is capacity deficient, revolvers.
38 special, 357 Mag, 44, 50 (I may have omitted some like 41, but it doesn't matter)
Calibers that are deficient for self defense.
22, 25, 32 (James Bond and/or they carried 32 in Europe are irrelevant)
Disclaimers:
Yes if someone if frail, weak, then a 22,25,32 is "better than nothing" I get it, but "better than nothing" is not a goal for most.
If you like your revolver, fine, doesn't affect me, but it is capacity deficient compared to a 10+ round semi and statistics nor location change that.
If one is uncomfortable or incompetent with loaded chamber carry in a semi, they probably better off with a revolver, said by someone who obviously doesn't prefer them.
Infrequent shooters and novices are also probably best served by a revolver.
Okay, to elaborate in the spirit of the thread...
I have a 22lr S&W model 41 with both barrels, a Ruger Target Government model 22 lr and a couple of other Ruger 22's. I've not shot them in a decade.
I've got a 686 S&W 6'' 357 Mag that I got new in 1987 a Charter Arms 38 I bought my wife in 1989 and another Charter snub that was my mother in-laws; those revolvers have not been shot in a decade or more. Despite that my first centerfire handgun was a revolver and I've owned various others, I'm not "into" revolvers.
I had bolt action .243 and 30/06 as well as a couple muzzleloaders, I quit hunting a few years ago and sold them all along with my bows and crossbows. I killed a couple deer with the 30/06, the .243 and muzzleloaders but those pale to the over two dozen I killed with a bow. I got done with killing.
So yes, I use to shoot 22's for fun and hunted but my primary reason for owning guns is and always has been self defense.
I'm a concealed carry enthusiast and focus my range time on shooting pistols that I carry.
And no, nobody is calling dibbs on the model 41 or pre-lock 686 - though I've not shot them in a decade my boys may appreciate them one day.
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mcb
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I once took high over all at a local club 3-gun match running an 8-shot revolver and pump shotgun, and iron sighted AR. That was a good day shooting.
Rock185
Member
I think I was always interested in guns, for whatever reason. But times sure have changed since I was a kid growing up in the '50s and '60s. No internet, but the firearms press of that day primarily featured articles about hunting, collecting, target shooting, converting military rifles to sporters, etc. Not a lot about self defense, CCW, combat, black/tactical high magazine capacity anything. If a high capacity pistol was mentioned at all, the writer was usually referencing the FN/Browning Hi Power. Elmer Keith wrote some about duty/self defense guns and gear, but Jeff Cooper is the guy that I recall starting to give SD/CCW/Duty weapons and techniques the impetus towards today's combat mindset, in the US at least. I certainly think about self defense, etc. Most of my adult working life was spent in LE, with the attendant training, qualifying, etc. I did the 250 and 499 at Gunsite, became a firearms instructor and armorer, etc. But LEOSA is the only qualifying I do nowdays, and have to admit that in my dotage, I'm primarily a recreational shooter.....
westernrover
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I joined IDPA expressly for the purpose of stress-induced training for self-defense, but I found that I don't have a gun that fits the rules. My EDC's barrel is too long and it has an optic. I had another gun that was short enough but it had a port. None of it was match gear. It's all carry gear. It's all just a result of my effort to always cheat and always win. No, I can't say that longer barrels, optics, and ports give me a decisive advantage in self-defense, but I do shoot better with them (except the port, that was a wash).
The clubs seem to be doing 5x5 classifiers nowadays instead of the longer one. It bugs me that the rankings are based entirely on how fast a person can dump five rounds. I was taught not to shoot fast, but to shoot well. I can take the classifier as a challenge to speed up, but it still bugs me that the difference between 'master' and 'expert' comes down to fractions of a second in split times. I'm leaving out points loss due to missing the down-zero circle, but that's because missing the circle at 10 yards would be appalling for anyone but the total novice.
I'm not keen to buy a gun different than my EDC piece just to compete in a gun race.
westernrover
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Shooting people is an unpleasant subject and years ago it was regarded as indecent. Anyone who remembers reading Cooper's Corner remembers that it was relegated to the back page. We've made a lot of progress as a society and culture by transforming the general regard for handguns as a criminal tool or one for law enforcement, to that of emergency life-saving equipment that responsible people carry routinely. That in itself might suggest that crime has gotten much worse since the days when carrying guns was taboo. Quite the opposite. While guns are hardly a panacea for crime, the increase in those practicing carry is not a reaction to an increase in crime, but a successful effort in violent crime prevention and mitigation.
Seems like once upon a time self defense was more about having something when hiking in the woods, while fishing, or heading to the outhouse when at a hunting cabin. If a two legged critter with bad intentions showed up whatever you had was considered adequate.
I'd be interested in a survey. Without doing the research, I'd guess the majority of those who "only" own a gun for defense against people would largely fall into ex-military/police or a younger crowd.
I'm in my late 60's, born and raised in Miami area, mostly a target shooter. I do have something at ready in my house, occasionally in my car, but I don't have a CCW license. About four years ago I was run over by a drunk driver when I was moving my yard. I'm quickly coming to terms with the fact that I can't physically defend myself, nor even evade a threat, anymore. I'm strongly considering getting that CCW permit.
Problem is my mindset. To put it in context I'll admit to saying in the past, " the bad guy would have to shoot me first but God help the SOB that ever points a weapon at my wife or child". I'm going to have to work on that.
I'd be interested in a survey. Without doing the research, I'd guess the majority of those who "only" own a gun for defense against people would largely fall into ex-military/police or a younger crowd.
I'm in my late 60's, born and raised in Miami area, mostly a target shooter. I do have something at ready in my house, occasionally in my car, but I don't have a CCW license. About four years ago I was run over by a drunk driver when I was moving my yard. I'm quickly coming to terms with the fact that I can't physically defend myself, nor even evade a threat, anymore. I'm strongly considering getting that CCW permit.
Problem is my mindset. To put it in context I'll admit to saying in the past, " the bad guy would have to shoot me first but God help the SOB that ever points a weapon at my wife or child". I'm going to have to work on that.
This is pretty much my story as well.
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