an active "road rager" - how to deal with?

[tuj]

I know road rage discussions are generally frowned upon in ST&T but this was a real-life incident that happened to me about 5 years ago. I was hoping some might help me with some genuine questions I have as to how I could have handled the situation better.

Was driving, don't remember the specifics, but somehow I enraged another driver who started following me and driving aggressively behind me, honking, flashing lights, motioning for me to pull over (even though there had been no accident).

I proceed to drive towards my house, taking a route that I know will be busy and at least have lots of witnesses if anything happens. I reach a stop light and I'm boxed in with a curb on one side and traffic on two others and him directly behind me.

He jumps out at the light armed with what I believe was a very large socket wrench and starts yelling for me to get out of the car and fight him. I remain in my car, quiet, waiting for the light to change to get the heck out of there. During this time he takes two swings at my car, one at the deck of the trunk and one at the roof, both of which I later found out left sizable dents.

I drove off when the light changed, incident over.

I still think back to that time and wonder 1) if I was in more danger than I realized and 2) if I *had* been carrying, would it have been appropriate to draw? Should I have simply done what I did, remaining in the vehicle and letting it take the licks? (I have to say it sucks to get your vehicle beat up, but obviously better than your face...)

Other options, such as heading to a police station were not viable as this light that I was stopped at was just short of a police station I was trying to get near.

Just curious for future use, what strategy would you employ in this situation?

 

[mcdonl]

If I saw his weapon was indeed a wrench, or pipe and I had an escape route I would have done what you did.

If there were no escape route and he had attempted to gain access to my vehicle by breaking the window or other means I would have given him one stern warning with my gun in hand. I also would have my doors locked.

 

[psyopspec]

I was in a similar situation to yours a few years back. Boxed in, enraged man with a tire iron who we later found out was a regular meth user wanted for putting his girlfriend in the hospital. I was the passenger, a friend was the driver. When he got out of his car, my friend had the window down trying to verbally de-escalate. I retrieved my pistol and chambered a round. At that moment he got back into his car and drove away. I kept it out of sight, so he either heard the sound or at that moment decided to listen to reason. Either way, I was relieved for that outcome.

In your post, you said you were heading home, but then later say you were going to a police station. The latter is certainly the right thing to do.

If possible, don't allow yourself to get boxed in. While there's no accounting for multi-lane roads and the vehicles on your left and right, always leave room to maneuver in front. Harkening back to my drivers ed teacher in high school, a good rule of thumb is if you can see the rear tires of the vehicle in front of you, you have the room to get around them. If your life is in danger and you believe it's possible to do it without hurting yourself or others, do what you have to do to get to that police station even if it means running a red light. Get 911 activated so that the police can come to you, or so that they can have officers waiting outside the station when you pull up.

Above all, drive safely/defensively.

 

[Mayvik]

Record the incident on your cell phone (with car/plate in the frame), leave, report to police as soon as possible (be the first one to call in the incident).

Hard to say you're in danger of serious bodily harm when you're sitting in a metal cage and not completely blocked in.

 

[JustinJ]

Was this before cell phones? The obvious answer seems to be get 911 on the phone as soon as you recognized the threat and then avoid getting boxed in until police catch up to you and your new friend.

 

[Bobson]

I think mcdonl answered this pretty much perfectly. I wouldn't bother holding my cell phone - rather have one hand on the wheel, and one on my gun (wouldn't draw it unless/until he approached my door). Definitely catch his plate and remember it if possible; but protecting yourself and getting out of there is more important than submitting photos or videos to the authorities.

 

[Bovice]

If they get out of their car and come at you, show some steel.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bovice: If they get out of their car and come at you, show some steel.

That's very poor advice. It would be unlikely that you would be able to justify your display of a weapon simply because someone had exited their automobile and approached you, even if they had uttered verbal threats.

The conditions under which the display of a firearm may be justified vary among jurisdictions. In some, an actual attempt to enter your vehicle unlawfully might suffice; in others, the threshold is more stringent.

Absent lawful justification, to "show some steel" is a serious crime.

 

[Russ Jackson]

I would get out of the car. Last place I would want to be is trapped in the car him having a tire iron, gun or both. If someone came at me with a tire iron I would pull my weapon. The minute he started flashing me and threatening me I would have called 911. Plus I might have held the horn to attract attention. I would even try to say I was sorry if I thought the guy was really a nut. 30 years ago I might have settled it by driving down a side street. I am older and smarter now.....I think

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Russ Jackson: I would get out of the car. Last place I would want to be is trapped in the car him having a tire iron, gun or both. If someone came at me with a tire iron I would pull my weapon.

In many states, you are provided with the presumption of a reasonable belief that force is necessary to defend yourself while you are inside your automobile. That would not apply once you have exited the car.

Also, your having exited the car could make the circumstances appear more ambiguous. The confrontation could be seen as one of mutual combat rather than self defense.

 

[Russ Jackson]

In many states, you are provided with the presumption of a reasonable belief that force is necessary to defend yourself while you are inside your automobile. That would not apply once you have exited the car.

Also, your having exited the car could make the circumstances appear more ambiguous. The confrontation could be seen as one of mutual combat rather than self defense.

You might well be right but having someone attack me in my car with a tire iron I have no chance. I might try to get away from the attacker and put the car in between if time was available. I have seen first hand what happens when you get trapped. A guy comes charging with a tire iron at me in the front seat I am getting out asap.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

If you know ahead of time like you did, that he's following you and being aggressive, drive to the police station. Under no circumstances would I ever drive home and allow him to know where me and my family live.

As far as what to do when he's outside yelling for you to fight him, I can't say that I'm sure. I guess I would have to assess the individual situation. Picking up a cell phone and calling 911 seems appropriate for sure. However, I'm aware that it will take them a while to get there.

 

[Godsgunman]

I have had similar instances. No one got out of the car but I was followed. I was at a 4 way stop and had the right of way, i was heading west. This guy rolls up from the south and tries to blow through his stop sign. I had already started going and I guess he though he should have been allowed to go right through his sign. He ends up pulling behind me kind of staying back then riding my tail then hanging back again. I notice he's going to try to follow me home so I pull my CC just out of the holster so I can be ready if need be. Anyways I take some oddball streets in my neighborhood to see if he is still following which he did. I then pull down a street that the juvie center is which always has cops around. He decided not to follow after that.
People are crazy and driving generally makes them crazier. At very least head towards a crowded area but always head for law enforcement if possible.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Arkansas Paul: Under no circumstances would I ever drive home and allow him to know where me and my family live.

Excellent advice.

As far as what to do when he's outside yelling for you to fight him, I can't say that I'm sure.

Just don't do anything that would put yourself in physical danger or that would diminish the viability of a defense of justification, should force become necessary. That means (1) do not get out of the car, and (2) do not display a weapon unless and until you would be lawfully justified.

It does not mean that you should not have your hand on your firearm to enable you to use it if it should become immediately necessary.

There is an exception: in some states, there is neither black law nor case law that eliminates your obligation to retreat, if retreat is safely possible, when you are attacked while you are inside your automobile. You have to know the law, and you have to make the final decision.

 

[mcdonl]

Thats the great thing about IDPA at a good club. You learn and practice shooting from inside a car.

 

[smalls]

Road rage incidents are frowned upon in this forum because they're so easy to avoid.

You should have first dialed 911 from your car.

Instead of driving home, you should have driven straight to the police station.

You shouldn't have let yourself be boxed in, if you see people stopped ahead, turn around!

Don't stop. Yield at red lights (don't cause an accident), or turn somewhere else. What's the worst that happens, you get the attention of the police? That's a good thing in this situation.

 

[Russ Jackson]

Excellent advice.

Just don't do anything that would put yourself in physical danger or that would diminish the viability of a defense of justification, should force become necessary. That means (1) do not get out of the car, and (2) do not display a weapon unless and until you would be lawfully justified.

It does not mean that you should not have your hand on your firearm to enable you to use it if it should become immediately necessary.

There is an exception: in some states, there is neither black law nor case law that eliminates your obligation to retreat, if retreat is safely possible, when you are attacked while you are inside your automobile. You have to know the law, and you have to make the final decision.

Maybe its because I grew up in Detroit. But I have learned that when someone comes at you with a wrench, tire iron, hand held weapon and starts beating on your car the end result will most likely end in you getting beat up trapped in the front seat with glass in your face. With no way to defend yourself. The attacker has already shown that he means business. We are beyond talking at this point. If you are boxed in one must assume that witnesses are the ones boxing you in. What should one do in this situation sit back and let is pass? Force or evasion became necessary when he came at you with a weapon. Are you playing the odds that the nut case beating your car with the wrench is not coming for you next? If the guy is willing to beat your car in front of witnesses he certainly isn't scared of hitting you. If I could evade I would, if not I will defend myself. I still say trapped in a car would not be the position I would want. Especially if my Wife or someone else was in the car with me. I do respect your position Kleenbore it just would not be mine. A lot of unknowns for this situation.

 

[mljdeckard]

This was actually a question that the state staff asked us in my carry instructor class. At what point is deadly force justified?

I am posting this clip, the same one they showed us. It has graphic language, you can skip to about 40 seconds in if you want to get to the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfFd4mlf5RQ

The staff told me they agreed with my answer the most. When the wrench is raised and they are about to start striking the vehicle. In Utah, you are allowed to use deadly force to prevent a carjacking. When someone is attempting to spray broken glass in your face or disable the vehicle, you are in reasonable fear that a forcible felony is about to take place. If you wait for him to hit you, you could be injured and unable to respond. When I see a weapon, I will present a weapon with the intent of stopping them from doing what they were doing.

 

[Schutzen]

Road Rage

The last thing you want to do is get out of your vehicle! You have just escaladed the situation and probably lost any protection current laws would provide you.

Stay in the vehicle, call 911 (remember he who calls first is usually thought to be right), be ready to defend yourself via fleeing in your vehicle even if you have to violate traffic laws or if unable to flee - fire from the vehicle only after the security of the vehicle has been compromised.

 

[mljdeckard]

And as you can see, this incident was unavoidable, the car was stopped at a light in traffic, and had nowhere at all to go. It was just random criminal idiocy.

 

[Russ Jackson]

This was actually a question that the state staff asked us in my carry instructor class. At what point is deadly force justified?

I am posting this clip, the same one they showed us. It has graphic language, you can skip to about 40 seconds in if you want to get to the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfFd4mlf5RQ

The staff told me they agreed with my answer the most. When the wrench is raised and they are about to start striking the vehicle. In Utah, you are allowed to use deadly force to prevent a carjacking. When someone is attempting to spray broken glass in your face or disable the vehicle, you are in reasonable fear that a forcible felony is about to take place. If you wait for him to hit you, you could be injured and unable to respond. When I see a weapon, I will present a weapon with the intent of stopping them from doing what they were doing.

+1000 I would have shot that guy in the video. Sorry just being honest. I might have ended up in jail. But did you see his passenger in danger. Not much different than the situation posted here. You can stay in the car not me. Great video. Its exactly what I envisioned.

I wonder if that freak eventually killed someone or permanently injured someone.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Russ Jackson: But I have learned that when someone comes at you with a wrench, tire iron, hand held weapon and starts beating on your car the end result will most likely end in you getting beat up trapped in the front seat with glass in your face. With no way to defend yourself.

You have to be ready to prevent that outcome.

The attacker has already shown that he means business. We are beyond talking at this point.

By beating on the trunk and roof of your car, he has shown that he intends to damage the car. Not to disable it, not to enter it, but to damage it.

Of course, that could change very quickly, and you have to be ready should that happen.

What should one do in this situation sit back and let is pass? Force or evasion became necessary when he came at you with a weapon.

As described in the OP, we has come at the car with a weapon, but not yet at the driver.

Are you playing the odds that the nut case beating your car with the wrench is not coming for you next?

No.

I'll be ready for him, if he does come to the windows on either side. Obviously, that would require an immediate response with deadly force, before the attacker could swing.

One might be able to successfully and convincingly articulate reason for believing that deadly force had been immediately necessary before that point, but should witnesses and the wounded man testify that the incident only involved damage to property, one might not succeed. It's a matter of risk mitigation. Do you want to bet everything on the assumption that your story will prevail? How quickly can you successfully shoot to stop when the man is no longer beating on the trunk but is coming around the car for you? I't's a judgment call with very high stakes.

If the guy is willing to beat your car in front of witnesses he certainly isn't scared of hitting you.

His apparent level of trepidation does not enter into the picture at that point. What is important is his demonstrated intent.

 

[bikemobile]

If he breaks out your window, crank the wheels to the left and gun it. Trying to escape serious injury and hurting the bad guy is easier to justify than shooting a guy that hit your car with a wrench. Once he breaches the window or the threshold of the window frame its game on. Think of it as the difference between someone standing in your driveway beating on your car vs someone climbing through a window or kicking down your front door of your house.

You will be in much better legal position to justify injury or death to the bad guy if you took reasonable steps to escape or diffuse the situation.

What ive said sounds very liberal i know but it is reality of how most law enforcement looks at situations like this.

Be the first guy on the line with 911, get a good plate, vehicle description and direction of travel if the bad guy takes off. We cant help you if we cant id the bad guy or his vehicle.

When you read my advice to use your vehicle as a weapon do not mistake what i say as an excuse to use your vehicle to retaliate. Eye for an eye doesnt work anymore, it will get you into more trouble.

If you are "pinned in" and the bad guy is trying to birth you out your window to hurt you then slam it in reverse, ram his car, create a working gap, wheels hard left, full throttle forward. Drag him, run him over whatever it takes to "prevent serious injury or death to yourself"

 

[mljdeckard]

biker, you may or may not have enough space to move around. If you start banging up the cars around you, they may be considering whether or not YOU are a deadly threat. And like the clip shows, he might not even have a car.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Russ Jackson: I would have shot that guy. Sorry just being honest. I might have ended up in jail. But did you see his passenger in danger. Not much different than the situation posted here.

The difference is that in the video, the occupants were already clearly in imminent danger. The OP described someone beating on the trunk and roof--and only that.

One other big difference is that there is video evidence to support a defense of justification

You can stay in the car not me.

You can shoot or you can run, but you cannot lawfully do both unless he chases you with a weapon.

Of course, you cannot lawfully get out and attack the man.

Great video. Its exactly what I envisioned.

But it was not what the OP described.