an active "road rager" - how to deal with?

[Kleanbore]

One other thing. The OP was not carrying. I really, really do not like being in that situation.

 

[Russ Jackson]

You have to be ready to prevent that outcome.

By beating on the trunk and roof of your car, he has shown that he intends to damage the car. Not to disable it, not to enter it, but to damage it.

Of course, that could change very quickly, and you have to be ready should that happen.

As described in the OP, we has come at the car with a weapon, but not yet at the driver.

No.

I'll be ready for him, if he does come to the windows on either side. Obviously, that would require an immediate response with deadly force, before the attacker could swing.

One might be able to successfully and convincingly articulate reason for believing that deadly force had been immediately necessary before that point, but should witnesses and the wounded man testify that the incident only involved damage to property, one might not succeed. It's a matter of risk mitigation. Do you want to bet everything on the assumption that your story will prevail? How quickly can you successfully shoot to stop when the man is no longer beating on the trunk but is coming around the car for you? I't's a judgment call with very high stakes.

His apparent level of trepidation does not enter into the picture at that point. What is important is his demonstrated intent.

Are you going to wait till he smashes your window? Or wait till he rears back? Did you watch the related video? What happens to the passenger if that nut smashes that window? I would only have to shoot if he came at me with the tire iron. I am just saying I would want the open space and not being trapped. I would have gotten out of that car quickly and drawn.

I envisioned the OP's position closely to the video. I also said there were a lot of unknowns.

 

[PGT]

if you're in your car and he's brandishing a tire iron or a socket wrench, you have the more powerful weapon; your car. staying in the car is safer than getting out unless you're a Jamaican sprinter named Bolt.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Russ Jackson: Are you going to wait till he smashes your window?

Of course not.

Did you watch the related video?

Yep. Different scenario. In the video, the attacker has already threatened the occupants.

What happens to the passenger if that nut smashes that window?

Grave danger of serious injury, obviously, but pounding on the trunk--which indicates intent to damage the trunk, for the moment--is something else again.

I would only have to shoot if he came at me with the tire iron.

Good thinking.

I am just saying I would want the open space and not being trapped. I would have gotten out of that car quickly and drawn.

Do you believe that you would be lawfully justified in drawing on someone who is damaging your unoccupied automobile?

The answer to that one varies according to jurisdiction, but in almost all states, the answer is NO.

 

[Russ Jackson]

I would never shoot someone for attacking my car. Only if he advanced towards me. If I opened my door to get out of the car while the attacker was beating on the car and he advanced towards me I would draw my gun. If he stayed at a distance and only wanted to beat on the hood I would leave the scene. If my wife was still in the vehicle I have to say I would most likely draw the weapon. The second I thought I or passenger was in danger I think I would shoot the individual.

In 1982 I actually watched a person get ripped out of a broken drivers window by the person who caused the accident and proceed to beat the heck out of the innocent party. Needless to say the attacker was held during the process by onlookers until police came. Had we not intervened the innocent party would have had even more serious injury's or death. After that there is no way I stay in a vehicle.

 

[Backpacker33]

A few weeks ago we had an incident in western Wisconsin that got my attention. A person called 911 saying he was being harassed by another driver who was very aggressive and doing dangerous things like ramming his vehicle.
The 911 operator told him to PULL OVER AND STOP! I can't think of a much stupider thing to do, but that's *my* opinion.
The driver did pull over. The occupants of the other car got out and began hitting him and his wife. He drew his legally carried firearm and held them for police.
Here's the link. It was still hot as of today. The copyright notice says it can't be distributed.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/Man...npoint/-/1648/17676830/-/4xxclcz/-/index.html

It is always best to avoid and escape, if for no other reason than that just being a dirt bag doesn't mean the dirt bag won't win the fight.
Until recently I had a 33-mile drive to work on Interstate. I saw many road rage fights. One of the scariest (which I didn't see) was a moron who put red and blue police lights in his grill and would flash them to get cars to pull over and stop. A few did, and he would then scold them for what he considered bad driving. He was eventually caught, but the police emphasized NOT pulling over for an unmarked car if you are unsure, but instead to drive to a well lighted and populated place. If it IS a cop and you keep driving, I suspect s/he will call for back up and you can be reasonably sure that four or five cars with flashing red and blue lights really are cops.

I'm also personally sure that if someone gets out of their car during such an incident, that I will test my car's maximum acceleration ability.

 

[rondog]

So many variables in situations like this. Respond as you see fit, and I'll respond as I see fit.

 

[JustinJ]

The worst part about the video is the event happened on a very busy street corner in which shots fired in any direction could easily hit an innocent bystander. If the point in which lethal force was justified the vehicle might have made a much better weapon.

 

[RTR_RTR]

I read the thread quickly, but I don't think this has been mentioned yet. Anytime I pull up to a red light, I do my best to leave myself a way to escape that area, if for some reason I should need to. Often, this isn't feasible, but I always try to leave myself 15 feet or so to the car in front of me to at least have a little instantaneous mobility if I have to have it. If I was in your situation with someone actively road raging, I would do my best to get to a police station (calling 911 on the way) without having to stop anywhere, but if I had to stop, I would be leaving myself more than the standard 15 feet.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Russ Jackson: I would never shoot someone for attacking my car.

Good thinking. The question, however, was about drawing.

Only if he advanced towards me.

Necessary, but perhaps not sufficient justification. Unless all of the elements of justifiable self defense--ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and preclusion--are satisfied, and you cannot evade, escape, deescalate, or avoid the attack, keep your finger off the trigger.

The tire iron or wrench is a pretty good indication, but distance will also have a lot to do with the determination of ability and opportunity, and how witnesses describe the way he"advanced" could determine how triers of fact will see the question of jeopardy. And of course, if you do not have to shoot, you may not.

Escape does not necessarily mean retreat, but in some jurisdictions retreat is required if it is safely possible, and even where that is not required, it is almost always a good idea.

If I opened my door to get out of the car while the attacker was beating on the car and he advanced towards me I would draw my gun.

In most jurisdictions, you would have to be justified in the use of deadly force; in a few, justification for using force would be sufficient.

If he stayed at a distance and only wanted to beat on the hood I would leave the scene.

Good thinking.

If my wife was still in the vehicle I have to say I would most likely draw the weapon.

I cannot imagine leaving my wife in a car that I had tried to escape from.

And I certainly would not want to give the impression that I had exited the car to better engage the attacker.

The second I thought I or passenger was in danger I think I would shoot the individual.

Given imminent danger of death or serious harm, plus immediate necessity, most of us would.

 

[tuj]

Thanks for the intelligent discussion of this issue so far guys. To clear up a couple points:

-I drive past a police station on my way home. But to get there, I have to get through a busy intersection. This is Houston, maybe some of you are not familiar with the degree of traffic we have, but this incident took place during rush hour. There was no way for me to leave an escape route; I knew I was getting boxed in as soon as I hit that light; cars in front, to the right side, and a tall curb to the left, and his car (with no front plate) behind me. Just leaving space in front wasn't an answer.

-he took two swings with contact to my car, to the roof and the deck-lid of the trunk, but he did not actually swing at the window.

-he was yelling verbal threats and wanted me to exit the car to fight him.

-doors were of course locked.

-believe it or not, I did not have a cell phone on me at that time.

 

[RTR_RTR]

Just leaving space in front wasn't an answer.

I don't understand why not. While it may not afford you the ability to actually drive away, it does allow you to put some immediate distance between you and the attacker and it allows you to retain use of your car as a weapon if need be. Of course, with that, we'd be talking a situation in which it should also be justified to draw a firearm

 

[snakeman]

It's best to escape when able to. I would not draw a weapon unless he had breached the car and was about to get his hands on me. It's better to pay for small car repairs than court costs and lawyer fees.

 

[smalls]

-I drive past a police station on my way home. But to get there, I have to get through a busy intersection. This is Houston, maybe some of you are not familiar with the degree of traffic we have, but this incident took place during rush hour. There was no way for me to leave an escape route; I knew I was getting boxed in as soon as I hit that light; cars in front, to the right side, and a tall curb to the left, and his car (with no front plate) behind me. Just leaving space in front wasn't an answer.

Were side streets an option? If you absolutely had to stop, a better option would have been finding a busy business (grocery store, gas station, etc) and stopping there and going inside the business. It's unlikely he'd follow you in there, and if he did, there's tons of witnesses. Plus I'm sure they have a phone available to call 911.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Instead of driving home, you should have driven straight to the police station.

I see this suggestion made often. While I know where the police station is near where I live, I don't know where police stations are in the numerous towns around me, some of which are incorporated and some of which are not (and hence have not police stations). When I was commuting to and from Dallas, I knew of one police station down town near where I worked, but otherwise had no clue for the other 40 miles of the commute until I got home.

I wonder how many people really know where the nearest police station is at any given time when they might be affected by road rage.

 

[mljdeckard]

Or to a well-lit surveilled place like Walmart.

 

[kerreckt]

If I am in, or a member of my party is in, imminent danger of being seriously injured or possibly killed I will do what I have to do to prevent it from happening. I will not draw and display my weapon. I will draw and shoot the person as many times as is needed to stop the assault.

 

[mljdeckard]

You do realize that nearly ALL armed encounters end with no shots fired, right?

 

[ZeSpectre]

My recommendations, kept very general because all events are different.

1) Hit that 911 speed dial on your phone. Begin providing the police with details (make, model, license plate, color, description of driver). All 911 calls are supposed to be recorded so don't worry if they say they didn't understand you.

2) Try to avoid being "boxed in". if you have to stop, leave enough room front/back that you can move your vehicle even if it's a few feet. That can be enough to keep a raging person from aiming something at you (gun, tire iron, bat, whatever).

3) Get somewhere VERY public, fire station or police station are best but a gas station or shopping center are also good. If nothing else there will be a good chance that someone else can/will call for help.

If ANY physical contact of any sort happens during the event (including someone damaging your vehicle), make sure you call your legal representation ASAP once you are safe!

 

[WardenWolf]

I'd have made a great show of calling the police on my cellphone, and made certain they caught the guy.

 

[smalls]

I see this suggestion made often. While I know where the police station is near where I live, I don't know where police stations are in the numerous towns around me, some of which are incorporated and some of which are not (and hence have not police stations). When I was commuting to and from Dallas, I knew of one police station down town near where I worked, but otherwise had no clue for the other 40 miles of the commute until I got home.

He stated he was heading home, meaning he could have headed to his hometown police station if he didn't know where another one was.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

He stated he was heading home, meaning he could have headed to his hometown police station if he didn't know where another one was.

With a home town of Houston, there isn't just one home town station and Houston is a very big place. Traffic can also move very slowly if you are driving across Houston.

You do realize that nearly ALL armed encounters end with no shots fired, right?

Mine do every day.

 

[Arp32]

I see a lot of picking on the OP for not leaving room in front of his car, not choosing extra wide streets, etc etc... Cut him some slack. As was mentioned earlier, you don't always know where the nearest police station is, much less the most direct route there that only goes through wide streets with mountable curbs and sidewalks wide enough to drive a car on (but not filled with pedestrians!).

I can easily see how he got boxed in at rush hour. I was just thinking through the routes I use to go home, there are lots of places where mounting a curb to escape just isn't a possibility.

Looks like a lose/lose situation to me. Property damage to the car was probably the best outcome.

Now, if it were me I'd have chosen a wider street and not have gotten boxed in in the first place

 

[AJumbo]

I had an incident where I was on thee freeway and 2 miles from the next exit, and blocked in with rush hour traffic. The guy kept coming up on my left side and screaming at me; I still don't know what wound him up, but WAS wound up. I had my 1911 with me, but didn't want to brandish it, as the law here in AZ takes a dim view of that activity. Instead, I brandished a magazine. I saw the sweet light of reason appear in the nutjob's eyes (or maybe it was fear- I'll take either one...) and he backed away.

I don't know if that was the right course of action, effective as it seems to have been. I DO NOT recommend it to anyone here. If I had had any way to drive away, even if it required an illegal turn, etc, I would have done that. No escape route was available to me. I didn't want to star a gunfight on a busy freeway, or try to take any wild evasive actions. If things had gotten any worse, I still had the 1911.

Clint Smith has it right- "Draw or drive, NOT BOTH."

 

[OptimusPrime]

+1 on the Walmart parking lot, I'm surprised more didn't post that. Just a big old parking lot, drive around in circles. OP did good in staying public for more witnesses and staying calm inside the vehicle.