An Avalanche of Tank Fire?

[shep854]

According to the Neal Boortz website, the US troops ran the whole spectrum of warning; arm signals, flashing lights, warning shots in front of the car, shots into the engine, and finally, the killing shot to the driver.

The photo seems to confirm that; two holes near the engine, one in the windshield. While the agent's death is sad, what we see here looks more and more like superb fire discipline and marksmanship. Not to mention a monumental screwup on the Italians' part (not informing the Americans what they were up to, as well as not responding to warnings).

 

[kikilee]

Even the French can't miss that badly.

I don't care who you are .......Thats funny

 

[Sleeping Dog]

An avalanche of tank fire would have left no scrap of metal bigger than a pop-top.

The Italians paid a few millions in ransom for her release. Those millions will be used to buy ammo and explosives for the peaceful peoples of Iraq. To be used to defeat the imperialist forces of the satanic America. Il Manifesto will be pleased with that.

If only the american press weren't so gullible.

Regards.

 

[Gordon Fink]

I sometimes read these extremist socialst/“communist†newspapers for entertainment … because their writers all seem to be living out some kind of paranoid fantasy. Though this incident is certainly regrettable, I’m afraid this journalist has less credibility than the average insurgent fighter.

~G. Fink

 

[Langenator]

The "avalanche of fire" was probably the tracers from the warning shots. Civilians really don't have a clue what a heavy volume of fire would look like.

And if her car was really right next to the tank, the tank (or Bradley, or LAV, or whatever) would be hard pressed to hit her, because the guns won't depress that far.

 

[LaEscopeta]

c_yeager:

The question is ONLY if we did what we were supposed to do. SO far it looks like we did.

DocZinn:

What do we know, really, at this point?

1. Shots were fired.
2. Something wounded the reporter.
3. Something killed the agent.

...and that's about it.

I completely agree with the above and add the following:

War is one confusing, disastrous mess, and people’s perceptions become distorted in combat. I am always amazed when reading soldiers’ accounts of combat; sometimes it is hard to believe 2 guys were in the same place at the same time. Like in this case, it seems like the reporter and our soldiers are describing 2 different incidents.

You throw in the media’s ability to screw up the facts beyond recognition (remember all the bunk the media published about PFC Jessica Lynch’s capture) and there is next to nothing we can know for sure about this incident.

 

[GigaBuist]

Buddy of mine ran checkpoints in the sandbox for a while when he was over there...

If you fail to stop at a checkpoint... they unload. It happened to him once and when the car didn't stop after warning shots I guess they hit it with whatever they had (machine gun wise that is) -- when the car actually stoppedd he and 2 other guys ran up to it emptying their pistols through the back window. Nobody really knows who/what killed the driver.

Turns out it was a friendly. An Iraqi police officer that apparently just lost his head and kept on driving when he got scared. Very unfortunate, but they did what they were supposed to do... in an area rife with car bombers, you just don't go barreling toward a checkpoint in a car.

Sounds like she was pretty lucky to me.

 

[Nitram68]

why not put out the tire spikes and give pursuit all over the desert? Be a good episode on 'bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do..."

On second thought, a .50 giving it's own inspiration would be a better episode

 

[Joejojoba111]

http://www.tagliners.org/pics/buffalo.jpg

Found the real picture of the car.

Langenator, if you see a lot of tracers that aint a good thing! It sort of means 5 bullets you don't see for each you do... And I'm not sure warning shots on pavement in front of a car would be safe anyway. Ricochets should bounce up and hit the car just the same.

For all who think the car with 3 little holes is hers, it's been broadcast widely that every checkpoint has .50's, it's been official policy for a long time. The proceduce was, officialy, a burst into the engine compartment. This was broadcast far and wide after that minivan of kids bought it.

BTW we don't know any facts, those are 1 sides' facts. Her side's facts are almost opposite, lol.

Oh BTW no civilian was killed. He was just the freaking Head of Military Intelligence! Lol!

 

[grampster]

Communist. Can you spell C-o-m-m-u-n-i-s-t.

Call me callous, but several millions in ransom (if that is true) equates to how many more US and Iraqi casualties. Sorry for the loss of the Italian Secret Service Agent. Just doing his job. Bullet hit the wrong person.

 

[carebear]

Heck, ya can't even back your car up in idle towards a cop in CONUS without getting a magful in the back of your grape, anybody who does more than creep up to a checkpoint in an actual war zone is not "thinking clearly".

And yes, I completely buy into this "lady's" self-important delusion that Bush personally ordered the hit on her.

 

[Joejojoba111]

I don't think Bush gave the order to hit her, either. More likely she was listed under 'targets of opportunity'

 

[Langenator]

Joe-

FWIW, I'm an Army Infantry officer, so I'm quite familiar with the ratio of tracers to ball rounds. I love tracers at the end of a range day because they make it real easy to count the leftover rounds. The 1-in-5 ratio wouldn't hold, however, if they were firing 25mm from a Bradley or LAV. EVERY round of 25mm has a tracer bit on it. Burns out at 2000m, although the rounds go a lot further.

Nice picture of a Leopard. I don't think the Germans have tanks in Iraq, though.

 

[slimxl99]

Im part italian this whole mess is an outrage. An Italian secret service agent lost his life to some high school graduate, below 100iq, infantry guys, who couldnt aim for ????. Im sure these infantry guys didnt ace the ASVAP, while the italian agent was probably a highly intelligent college graduate.

Yeah so what the broad is a commie, italy is a friendly country and we have a poor track record of shooting freindlys in engagements.

BTW that picture is of really low quality. 223 leaves pretty small holes Im sure you missed more than a few with youre little photoshop circle job.

Ok ill concede that the soldiers were probably scared, and let some loose. Maybe we need some smarter guys in infantry

 

[shep854]

Slimlxl199, welcome to The High Road!

OK, guys, now that courtesy has been observed, who wants him first?
First come, first served! Take a number and stand in line!

Remember, though, this is The High Road!


OK, I'll take first crack.

If the journalist and her driver had been Americans, and pulled the same stunt at a Italian checkpoint, and the results the same, nothing would have changed. The checkpoint procedures were established in blood. Had the driver heeded the warnings, he would be alive today.

As for the intelligence of infantry, it pretty much is way above 100IQ. The dumb "cannon fodder" of the past is gone. With the sophistication of modern equipment and the complexity of modern war, armies cannot afford idiots. A high school dropout has no chance of getting into the US armed forces.

Next batter!

 

[DRZinn]

some high school graduate, below 100iq, infantry guys, who couldnt aim for

And your qualifications for criticizing the average infantryman would be what?

(How's eight years USMC infantry and a 140 IQ sound?)

we have a poor track record of shooting freindlys [sic] in engagements.

How about "We have a pretty good track record of shooting people who, in a combat zone, won't stop for a checkpoint after being warned." How's that grab ya?

 

[LaEscopeta]

slimxl99;

I’m sorry for the death of a friendly country officer, but I don’t think this tragedy should be blamed on U.S. soldiers being stupid. All enlisted soldiers, including Italian ones, have a duty to obey all lawful orders. As said before in this thread, I believe standing orders for all coalition soldiers, including Italian ones, at road blocks in Iraq is to signal approaching vehicles to stop, then fire a warning shot, then fire to disable the vehicle.

I don’t know what happened when the Italian intelligent officer was killed. It could have happen exactly as the soldiers said it did, it could have happened exactly as the reporter said, it could be something in between these two stories, or what really happened could be totally different from either story.

As you said, we have a record of “friendly†fire incidents, as do all other militaries at war. In some of these cases U.S. personal have been found at fault, and have been reprimanded or court-martialed. In other cases the fog of war was blamed. The U.S. military says they trying to prevent further incidents, and I believe this is at least partially true.

You can disagree with the orders given to the soldiers, you can disagree with the justification the U.S. has in being in Iraq in the first place. But if the soldiers really did warn the approaching car, and it did not stop, then they are without guilt.

As you said Nicola Calipari a very intelligent man; he was also brave and served Italy well and with honor. Again, I’m sorry for his untimely death.

 

[nico]

while the italian agent was probably a highly intelligent college graduate.

too bad he wasn't intelligent enough to know to stop at the check point

Maybe we need some smarter guys in infantry

Imagine this scenario: You're manning a checkpoint with the knowledge that your enemies have detonated car bombs by not stopping for checkpoints and getting too close before the soldiers realized they were a threat. While you're manning a checkpoint late at night, you see a car coming at the checkpoint and not stopping. They don't respond to hand signals, verbal orders, or even warning shots. What would a "smarter guy" (like yourself?) do?

Since intelligence seems to be such a big issue in your post. Maybe you should think about the intelligence of a few officers carrying out a covert mission in a war zone that's being controlled by an ally without telling the ally what's going on. Everything I've read/heard about the story makes it sound like the morons in the situation were the Italians. The American troops did exactly what they should do in a situation like that.

I'm part Italian and the only outrage here is the crap spewing from the mouth of the reporter. I have absolutely no sympathy for her.

 

[GoRon]

Italian secret service agent lost his life to some high school graduate, below 100iq,

Insult our military

we have a poor track record of shooting freindlys in engagements.

Another insult, as if the military isn't trying to eliminate FF.

Yeah so what the broad is a commie, Italy is a friendly country

Free pass to the Italians in spite of serious lack of judgment in running the operation AND not telling the coalition.

Im sure these infantry guys didnt ace the ASVAP, while the italian agent was probably a highly intelligent college graduate.

So the intel officers life is worth more than our infantry men?

Im part italian this whole mess is an outrage

So if a Pole or Britt were killed you would feel better?



If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll it is most likely a troll.

If you are not a troll I am sorry. Welcome to THR, I look forward to seeing the members here straighten out your twisted thought process.

 

[slimxl99]

Ok ill give in a bit here.

the comment on the infantry soldiers was offbase, as we have some very intelligent people in the army and I respect are troops fully. But I do have to say that infantry is the available job for low scorers on the asvab. Maybe some not to intelligent guy got trigger happy and jumped the gun. Of course the troops are going to say that the italians didnt slow down, they dont want to be court martialed and they stick together.

If you think this is the first civilian car that got shot up at a check point then you are wrong. This is the only civilian car shot up so far with somebody important inside. All those other iraqi civilians that we are "trying to save" are collateral damage.

We should just declare victory and bug out of there. Too many people dead so far over propaganda and oil. But thats another conversation entirely

 

[nico]

Maybe some not to intelligent guy got trigger happy and jumped the gun.

or maybe some not too intelligent guy didn't stop for a checkpoint

Of course the troops are going to say that the italians didnt slow down, they dont want to be court martialed and they stick together.

the Italians haven't said they did slow down. All they said is they weren't "speeding" which is a completely subjective term. They also haven't said anything about stopping. hmmm. . . I wonder what would have happened if they approached the checkpoint like they were supposed to

If you think this is the first civilian car that got shot up at a check point then you are wrong.

noone said that either. You'd have to have been living under a rock for the last year to not know this has happened before. There's one thing in common with every instance of a friendly being shot at a checkpoint: THEY DIDN'T STOP WHEN THEY WERE ORDERED TO DO SO.

 

[DRZinn]

Trolls are fun!

 

[bogie]

I'll bet I know what happened. She told him to go. He immediately ceased thinking from the neck up, and obeyed.

I think our guys showed a lot of restraint in stopping the car.

Damn shame, but hey. I know that if I'd been there, and I'd even twitched on a car bomb maybe coming toward me, there'd be a rapid exercise in how fast one can change mags on a '16. And there wouldn't be anything still moving, beyond vestigal nerve twitches, in that car after I got through.

 

[grampster]

Gramatically the guy has a lot of nerve talking about IQ. He must have a bit wrong with his reading comprehension as well, or all he does is watch CNN.

I have people I know in Iraq. I have people who are friends that have people in Iraq. I get e-mails and have talked personally with the above people. Your conclusions are without merit or knowledge and are nonsense.

Go back under your bridge, troll, where you belong. If you can't do that, then at least crawl out from under your rock and begin to find out what the reality of Iraq is all about. :banghead:

My apologies to the good members and visitors to THR, but I have had enough of illiterate garbage being spewed by know nothings about what happens in urban warfare where we are bending over backwards to confront terrorist thugs.

God bless our men and women who stand in harms way for us and all who love freedom.

To keep this gun oriented, I believe .45 is superior to 9mm every day in every way.

 

[Bear Gulch]

I concur with brother yeager. Besides muzzle climb would not be a factor. The cars forward movement would cause the bullet impacts to seem to track upward.