And, another.....

[Jaymo]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=272652709


Before I'd pay that price, I'd have to have irrefutable proof that it is what he says it is. But, I'd love to have a nickel plated '75 Remington .44-40.

The beaded holster looks nice, but it appears to be in a lot better condition than the gun.
When I see a beaded or tack decorated anything that's being represented as an American Indian object, I immediately get suspicious.
Far too many run of the mill guns have been faked with brass tacks in the interest of getting more money than it's worth.
A beaded holster that's in a LOT better shape than the gun that's supposed to go with it, from the same period, sends my red flags up.

I'm not accusing the seller of anything. I'd just prefer provenance with an item if I'm going to pay that much for it.

And I would LOVE to have that one. The older I get, the more I like the Remington revolvers.

 

[scrat]

its a nice gun. probably not what its supposed to be at all. 90% of all old guns are not what the seller says they are.


Fact:

When Pancho Villa died in 1923 his wife would sell a gun she had put away that belonged to her husband Pancho Villa" but just dont tell anyone. I dont want everyone coming around here"

Later on it was estimated she sold over 100 guns that were to have been her husbands best gun.

Everyone knows these guns exist however what we dont know is who the rightful owner was. Most of them other than the story that the seller claims is just an old gun with a history that has been lost in history

 

[Jaymo]

A little info about me. I'm suspicious of the entire galaxy. (apologies to George Lucas)
I don't trust anyone. Especially if they're trying to separate me from my money.
More so, if they're trying to separate me from a large quantity of money.
Coworkers and "friends" will often throw you under the bus in a heartbeat, if they think they stand to gain from it.
Seemingly honest people will do amazingly dishonest and immoral things to make easy money.
I tend to agonize over decisions which involve spending a lot of money for an item, and I research the item, ad nauseum, before buying it so I know I'm getting the best item for the price and that I'm getting the best price available.
And I still get buyer's remorse. Worst part is, I get it BEFORE I even spend the money.

 

[CraigC]

Pretty cool and the beadwork is well done but I have no idea if it is original or not. Bummer is that to find out, an expert like Chuck Burrows would probably have to have it in hand.

 

[arcticap]

UP FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IS A BEAUTIFUL REMINGTON 1875 44/40 WCF ISSUED TO THE INDIAN POLICE FORCE BY THE U.S. INTERIOR DEPT. 639 WERE PURCHASED BY THIS DEPT. IN NICKLE PLATE FOR USE BY THE INDIAN POLICE ON WESTERN RESERVATIONS IN 1883. (SEE FLAYDERMAN 5E-055) SERIAL NUMBER 15XXX.

THE HOLSTER SHOWS INDIAN TANNING AND BEADWRK AND IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION INCLUDING FRINGES. THE GEOMETRICS ARE PROBABLY SIOUX FROM THE NORTHERN PLAINS. THIS IS A VERY ATTRACTIVE AND REAL OUTFIT. YOU WILL NOT SEE ANOTER OF THESE FOR A VERY LONG WHILE IF EVER.

I must have watched too many episodes of the Antiques Roadshow on PBS because for some reason I believe the ad. I have a hard time doubting a seller unless there's an expert opinion to the contrary. That means that the seller should get the benefit of the doubt.
At least that's what I usually do.
That doesn't mean that anyone needs to buy it.
Doubts are a dime a dozen, but the authentic items do exist for those who are knowledgeable enough to recognize them.
Many people on the Antiques Roadshow do not recognize the true worth of what they have.
There's usually a story behind every antique, about where an item came from, how much was paid for it or at least how it was acquired. These general background questions are often asked by the experts on the show before they give their expert opinion.
The show's Indian beadwork experts can usually spot a fake, and I've been amazed at the value of authentic Indian beadwork.
The seller might even have some authentication if he bought the items from a reputable auction house in the past.
I see that someone with 40 transactions bid $3000 on the auction listing.
That may indicate that the bidder actually knows something about the items.
BTW, the Antiques Roadshow has a website with an archive that can be searched:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/

 

[AJumbo]

The holster looks like the ones that DGW used to sell; real beadwork, just not real old.

 

[Jaymo]

I'd love to have it. If it's the real thing, and IF it's what he says it is, I'd pay that for it. If I could afford it.

 

[arcticap]

Here's an interesting mixed bag of items from the Antiques Roadshow archives. One piece of authentic Indian beadwork was very valuable compared to the other items.
See the 4 photos and read the details in the Appraisal Transcript:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200806A32.html

 

[arcticap]

Here's an authentic pair of beaded gauntlet gloves circa 1890 that look to be in fairly good shape.
From the Jan. 9, 2012 show in Tulsa, OK:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201104T01.html

 

[shunka]

Provenance and complete documentation is everything, not that I will be able to afford "the real thing". I can't speak of the "look & feel" of the 1875, but I can relate that honest antique beadwork does not look very old! here are some examples:

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=60872&weiid=6591457&lang=Eng
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2116393
http://www.icollector.com/Sioux-Beaded-Holster_i10854172
http://www.caddotc.com/Catalogue/Inventory/BeadedItems/BI1158.jpg ( #100.Beaded Pistol Holster 1880 - 1920 Montana, Crow Style )
http://fineart.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=681&lotNo=77073
http://www.gunsamerica.com/93384096...ith_Sioux_Beaded_Holster_and_Display_Case.htm
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/sioux-beaded-pictorial-gun-holster
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10819870_holster-beaded-hideandparfleche-sioux-sinew-sewn
http://www.iproxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3777&aid=41399&lid=11219998
http://www.proxibidsucks.org/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2046&aid=45472&lid=11804093

In my humble experience most of the age and wear generally is seen in the leather...

yhs
shunka

 

[arcticap]

Thank you for those examples.
Not related to the value, but this one looks to have very similar construction:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/93384096...ith_Sioux_Beaded_Holster_and_Display_Case.htm

 

[shunka]

Ah, very good example my good Articap, with quite a plethora of views!

That one in particular helps make my point that the original glass beads seem to hold up quite well, and the wear will most often be seen in the leather (sometimes the brain tan takes on a strange greyish color) and/or in wear on the stitching.

It is often difficult to get a good handle on the bead work stitching without handling the piece (in good light and with a powerful lens) especially since quite a number of pieces may have "very well done" repairs anytime during it's lifetime. My Lovely Spousal Unit (aka She Who Must be Obeyed) reminded me that one telltale sign of very very old seeds beads is that they are not as uniform in diameter as the modern counterparts. Even here however, one can be misled as some meticulous Native American beaders would sort their beads by size.

If there are repairs on original beadwork they can occur anytime throughout the pieces lifetime, sometimes they are made using correct antique period beads and real sinew, sometimes with whatever was available.

Some Bead masters maintain a stock of original antiques for repairs, and the Sioux Trading Post up in Rapid City used to have quite a selection of antique beads for sale.

Whilst I cannot comment on how a repair may affect value, if done correctly it can be virtually invisible!

Our good friend (now deceased) Neva Standing Bear Lights In The Lodge was a consultant to the Denver Museum and was, upon several occasions, asked to repair some of their original antique pieces on display; when she was finished she took great pride in challenging us to determine where the repair had been made
(we never could!)

yhs
shunka

 

[arcticap]

Is that the exact same holster in both listings?
Maybe the GB seller bought that GunsAmerica Colt Pocket .31 along with that Sioux holster and is now selling it as a pair with the 1875 Remington to earn the Colt Pocket .31 as profit.
That holster is either an exact clone or by some stroke of coincidence it's the exact same holster.
I think that you struck gold while digging up examples of beaded holsters and came up with a perfect match.
They both have the same number of rows of white beads from the top of the main symbol at the top front of the holster...4 rows of white beads from the top.

 

[Jaymo]

It's not a matter of the beads looking new to me. It's a matter of the leather looking new and, honestly, thin. It looks too thin to be a useful holster.
It looks way too new to be original to the time period of the gun.