Andrew Coffee acquitted

Status
Not open for further replies.

Spats McGee

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
7,471
Location
Arkansas
On or about the same day that Kyle Rittenhouse was acquitted, one Andrew Coffee IV was also acquitted. His charges included murder and attempted murder. I bring this up because there are some differences between this and the Rittenhouse case that raise some interesting questions.

  1. Mr. Coffee claimed SD as against deputies who were raiding his house.
  2. The murder charge (I believe) stemmed from the death of his girlfriend, who was shot 10 times in the crossfire.
  3. Mr. Coffee was convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm.

Here are some internet articles:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/...n-5-counts-including-murder-attempted-murder/
https://reason.com/2021/11/22/man-faces-30-year-sentence-self-defense-andrew-coffee-iv-rittenhouse/
 
Were any drugs ever found in Coffee's residence? That is what the first link stated (an early morning drug raid) but neither article says anything about charges for illicit drugs.
 
Off the top of my head, I don't know. If there had been drugs there, you'd think he'd have been charged, though.
 
Personally, I don't think he should have been convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm under those circumstances.

A person should not be punished in any way for defending themselves, period, especially when deemed "not guilty" like this guy.

It reminds me of a discussion with an attorney (possibly even on this site, come to think of it) on self defense and weapons of opportunity years ago. The old "wasp spray" thing came up (don't consider wasp spray as effective defense, by the way...it's designed to work on wasps, not humans, and isn't worth spit compared to other measures). It is possible that you might grab wasp spray as a "weapon of opportunity" in defense...however, it's also possible you can be charged with a felony for using it contrary to what it's intended for.
 
Personally, I don't think he should have been convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm under those circumstances.

A person should not be punished in any way for defending themselves, period, especially when deemed "not guilty" like this guy.....
There's a doctrine called "transitory possession." I did some research on it a few years ago, but have not looked at it lately. Essentially, even a convicted felon can pick up a gun to defend himself, but he can't keep it, and he has to hand it over to the authorities pretty darn quick. Think "one of the bad guys drops his gun & felon picks it up." That's all well and good, but if Mr. Coffee admitted in a police interview that it was "his gun" or something else that wasn't transitory possession, then he can't use that as a defense.
 
Hmm, wonder if it were a "wrong address" raid or a malicious tip.

I was thinking the same thing. There have been a few high profile instances of police showing up at the wrong address and bullets start flying. Or another possibility, is they had the right address as he is a felon. Possibly felony drug possession. They didn't find any or were more focused on the two way shooting going on and building that case.
 
There's a doctrine called "transitory possession." I did some research on it a few years ago, but have not looked at it lately. Essentially, even a convicted felon can pick up a gun to defend himself, but he can't keep it, and he has to hand it over to the authorities pretty darn quick. Think "one of the bad guys drops his gun & felon picks it up." That's all well and good, but if Mr. Coffee admitted in a police interview that it was "his gun" or something else that wasn't transitory possession, then he can't use that as a defense.

He may not even be able to claim transitory possession, from my understanding of the laws with respect to felons and guns.

What constitutes "possession" isn't quite so simple, or obvious, if you have a felon living in a household where there may be firearms owned/possessed by others. This is because, even though the felon may not own, or even physically possess a firearm on his person, he has ready access to firearms within the household unless it can be shown that they're routinely secured in a way in which he does not have access. If the firearms are stored in a locked container but he has a key or combination, or access to the key or combination, then there are legal problems.

My understanding on this is that it varies by state.

If so, then his ability to obtain a firearm under the circumstances described might indicate he had illegal possession/control because it was so readily accessible.
 
He may not even be able to claim transitory possession, from my understanding of the laws with respect to felons and guns.

What constitutes "possession" isn't quite so simple, or obvious, if you have a felon living in a household where there may be firearms owned/possessed by others. This is because, even though the felon may not own, or even physically possess a firearm on his person, he has ready access to firearms within the household unless it can be shown that they're routinely secured in a way in which he does not have access. If the firearms are stored in a locked container but he has a key or combination, or access to the key or combination, then there are legal problems.

My understanding on this is that it varies by state.

If so, then his ability to obtain a firearm under the circumstances described might indicate he had illegal possession/control because it was so readily accessible.
And I think you're right. As I said earlier, there may be some factor that barred him from raising it. In and of itself, though, I don't think a felony conviction does. I dug into this a few years ago, primarily on the federal level because I don't have time to dig through all 50 states' laws. It seems to vary from state to state and circuit to circuit. There's also some case law out there on "innocent possession." Here's just some food for thought:
D.C. Court of Appeals said:
....At oral argument, Government counsel forthrightly conceded that, although narrow, there must be an innocent possession defense to a § 922(g)(1) charge. We agree. Indeed, we cannot imagine otherwise. It is true that some courts have emphasized that no criminal intent is required to establish guilt under § 922(g)(1). See, e.g., Deleveaux, 205 F.3d at 1298 (stating that under § 922(g)(1) “[t]he prosecution need show only that the defendant consciously possessed what he knew to be a firearm”). Nonetheless, as the Government here recognized, to completely reject the possibility of an innocent possession defense is to say that a felon-in-possession always will be guilty once he knowingly possesses a weapon, without regard to how or why he came into possession or for how long possession was retained. Thus, for example, if Mason did indeed innocently pick up a bag containing a gun (not knowing what was in the bag), he would be guilty the moment he was seen holding the bag knowing of its contents, even if he had every intention of relinquishing possession immediately. There is nothing to indicate that Congress intended such a harsh and absurd result and Government counsel acknowledged that § 922(g)(1) should not be read this broadly.

The real problem in this case is not whether there is an innocent possession defense, but, rather, how to define it. This is no mean feat. Although Congress may not have meant to produce absurd results in enacting § 922(g)(1), there is no doubt that the criminal proscription is strict. Nonetheless, as both parties here agree, certain carefully confined extenuating circumstances may preclude a conviction under § 922(g)(1) based on mere knowing possession.

Some of our sister circuits appear to have recognized an innocent possession defense; however, we can find no case in which a circuit has squarely applied the innocent possession defense to a § 922(g)(1) charge, where the elements of a justification defense are not present. See United States v. Ali, 63 F.3d 710, 716 n. 7 (8th Cir.1995) (declining to address whether the defense was available because defense counsel failed to seek a proper instruction on the innocent possession theory, but noting that its case law did not foreclose such a defense); United States v. Elder, 16 F.3d 733, 738 (7th Cir.1994) (concluding that although the innocent possession defense presented a “novel issue,” it need not decide the issue because the evidence did not support the defense); cf. United States v. Wolak, 923 F.2d 1193, 1198 (6th Cir.1991) (recognizing an “innocent possession defense,” though the defense in that case is more properly considered a “justification defense” as life and limb were arguably at stake).
There are reported state court judgments, however, that have allowed an innocent possession defense to a weapons possession charge. See, e.g., Bieder v. United States, 707 A.2d 781, 783-84 (D.C.1998) (acknowledging innocent possession defense to charge of carrying a pistol without a license); People v. Hurtado, 47 Cal.App.4th 805, 54 Cal.Rptr.2d 853, 858 (1996) (stating that the momentary possession for disposal defense, initially established for the possession of controlled substances, extends to possession of a firearm by a felon offenses); People v. Williams, 50 N.Y.2d 1043, 431 N.Y.S.2d 698, 409 N.E.2d 1372, 1373 (N.Y.1980) (recognizing innocent possession defense to a charge of criminal weapons possession). See also Redbook, *624 **96 Instruction No. 4.71(B) (4th ed.1993) (“The defendant would be not guilty of the offense charged here if s/he lacked any criminal purpose in carrying or possessing the weapon [ammunition] and s/he [intended to take it as soon and as directly as possible to law enforcement].”); Criminal Jury Instructions, New York, No. 9.65 (1983) (“A person who recently finds a weapon and thus possesses it temporarily, with no intention to retain it, but with the intention of promptly turning it over to a lawful authority, is not guilty of unlawful possession. Such possession, if temporary, is lawful.”). Some of the statutes at issue in the state court decisions are not felon-in-possession statutes. Nevertheless, the rationale underlying these decisions seems to apply equally to § 922(g)(1).

34 There are two general requirements that must be satisfied in order for a defendant to successfully invoke the innocent possession defense. The record must reveal that (1) the firearm was attained innocently and held with no illicit purpose and (2) possession of the firearm was transitory-i.e., in light of the circumstances presented, there is a good basis to find that the defendant took adequate measures to rid himself of possession of the firearm as promptly as reasonably possible. In particular, “a defendant's actions must demonstrate both that he had the intent to turn the weapon over to the police and that he was pursuing such an intent with immediacy and through a reasonable course of conduct.” Logan v. United States, 402 A.2d 822, 827 (D.C.1979). When these requirements are met, possession is “excused and justified as stemming from an affirmative effort to aid and enhance social policy underlying law enforcement.” Hines v. United States, 326 A.2d 247, 248 (D.C.1974).

The innocent possession defense may arise in a range of factual scenarios, including cases like the instant one in which the defendant's claims of innocent possession, lack of illicit purpose, and transitory possession are plausible, albeit debatable. Such cases are for the jury to decide. There are some easy cases on either end of the spectrum, however.

For example, suppose there was undisputed and credible evidence that a defendant left his truck locked to make a delivery and, upon returning, found that the truck had been broken into and a gun left on the driver's seat. Suppose further that, surprised by his discovery, the defendant picks up the gun, removes the ammunition, and then immediately calls “911” to seek police assistance. When the police arrive, the defendant is found holding the gun and ammunition, which he turns over to the officers. Surely, with such a record, a judgment of acquittal would be in order.


United States v. Mason, 233 F.3d 619, 623–24 (D.C. Cir. 2000), as amended (Jan. 10, 2001)
 
My ex-wifes sister received a felony drug conviction (pills if I recall, it was 20+ years ago) and her husband was required by the Stste Police (WV) to permanently remove all firearms from the residence. He asked about a storage unit and was told no because she could still gain access. He ended up buying a safe and storing them at a relatives over 200 miles away
 
Hmm, wonder if it were a "wrong address" raid or a malicious tip.

It definitely wasn't the wrong address or a bad tip.

I live in the county, and at the time worked no to far away from where this shooting took place, so here is some background.

A sizeable portion of the Coffee extended family are drug dealers. Coffee The IV, the III, and the II are all convicted drug dealers.

Coffee II also was convicted for the attempted murder of an Indian River Country Deputy. I was actually called up for jury duty when this trial was taking place but luckily ended up on another case. While I was in the court house the entire building had a huge law enforcement presence due to this family, which was WAY in excess of the normal handful of deputies there.

The right jumped all over this result, but this guy ain't the person to be the face of the self defense movement.
 
There have been a couple precedents for this kind, but they were generally for no knock warrants or raids where the police did no announce themselves clearly.
https://theconservativetreehouse.co...e-murder-charge-grand-jury-refuses-to-indict/

In recent years juries have found that when police departments serve no knock warrants or preform raids without announcing themselves, if the person in question responds with lethal force, the jury has let them off the hook. Generally this happens in states that are very pro 2A and have castle doctrine laws in place.
 
My ex-wifes sister received a felony drug conviction (pills if I recall, it was 20+ years ago) and her husband was required by the Stste Police (WV) to permanently remove all firearms from the residence. He asked about a storage unit and was told no because she could still gain access. He ended up buying a safe and storing them at a relatives over 200 miles away

I would be tempted to store the guns in a safe in the garage. Would have to be a detached garage I guess.
 
It definitely wasn't the wrong address or a bad tip.

I live in the county, and at the time worked no to far away from where this shooting took place, so here is some background.

A sizeable portion of the Coffee extended family are drug dealers. Coffee The IV, the III, and the II are all convicted drug dealers.

Coffee II also was convicted for the attempted murder of an Indian River Country Deputy. I was actually called up for jury duty when this trial was taking place but luckily ended up on another case. While I was in the court house the entire building had a huge law enforcement presence due to this family, which was WAY in excess of the normal handful of deputies there.

The right jumped all over this result, but this guy ain't the person to be the face of the self defense movement.

I always wondered about going after known bad guys at their house. I guess you have a SWAT team and you want to use it after spending untold hours training and planning the entry but what about picking up the guy when walks out the door? Send a letter informing him of a prize he won and lead him to the arrest locations address (this has been used elsewhere with success), etc.

Killing one bystander is a lot better than what the .gov did in Waco (the guy they were after was in Super Shops in Waco earlier that day and they postponed their assault until he returned, that was a whole lot more drama and deaths that could have been avoided with better tactics. As the left is so fond of saying, “if it saves just one life…”
 
Last edited:
I always wondered about going after known bad guys at their house. I guess you have a SWAT team and you want to use it after spending untold hours training and planning the entry but what about picking up the guy when walks out the door? Send a letter informing him of a prize he won and lead him to the arrest locations address (this has been used elsewhere with success), etc.

Killing one bystander is a lot better than what the .gov did in Waco (the guy they were after was in Super Shops in Waco earlier that day and they postponed their assault until he returned, that was a whole lot more drama and deaths that could have been avoided with better tactics. As the left is so fond of saying, “if it saves just one life…”

They need/want to get the target with the dope. Its makes a better case in court otherwise its always someone elses dope. And the idea with the dynamic raids is to catch you when you are relaxed at home not expecting a visit. It works most of the time. I have been in places where the cops came in hard and its a force of nature if they do it right. You are cuffed and stuffed fast. I also can remember when it was sop to just have a couple cops kick in the door and run in. Lots more shooting and folks getting hurt.

the stuff they did in waco was a photo op gone wrong. There are lots of cops appalled at how they handled that.
 
And the idea with the dynamic raids is to catch you when you are relaxed at home not expecting a visit. It works most of the time.

I agree, when it doesn’t or they don’t even go to the right place, they from time to time, wind up killing people that didn’t deserve to die. At some point decisions are made to reduce the number of people killed.

Kind of like how seat belts were invented. They were an optional “accessory” up to the 1960’s, now required to be utilized in many places across the Country.
 
Alteria Woods was shot 10 times by SWAT in the Coffee raid.

That is a tragedy that she died. Sadly many "innocent bystanders" are family, girlfriends , or kids that think it's cool to hang with the criminals. That's the risk one takes for knowingly marrying into a gang family.

One of the claims from the police is that Coffee used her as a human shield during the gun fight. The jury rejected that idea, but I believe that she ended up between Coffee and the cops during the gun fight
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top