another .22 LR question

[jim243]

hit someone in the dome or chest what would the outcome be

No one can tell you this, each individual is built differently, different amount of muscle mass, different bone thickness, etc. As well as each shot will travel a different path through the body. Some people have been shot with 9mm's in the head and lived to tell the tale. (Gabby Giffords for one) Some have been shot with a 22 and are permanently paralyzed (Brady for one).

It is a crap shoot (dice) what the results will be, however two or more hits will generally result in death. (it depends on where the person is hit, in a vital organ or not).

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

+1

And NO rule of gun fighting I know of says you only get to shoot once either!

rc

 

[mljdeckard]

There are no guarantees. At all. Ever. I said I wouldn't use it, but at the same time, my unit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys. An A-10 with a 30mm cannon came in and hosed them out. They tracked a survivor to a nearby village, and found him with a 30mm hole in his shoulder, still alive. No guarantees, EVER. Only degrees of likelihood.

This is a clip of a guy shooting his lawyer repeatedly outside a courtroom. I don't think it says what kind of gun it is, but the very low recoil mekes me think it wasn't a .38.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnwnZjVeQg8

 

[Shawn Dodson]

.22 LR is a viable self-defense cartridge, depending on the specific gun and cartridge combination. Are there better choices? You betcha. But .22 LR is capable of working successfully to stop a human attacker.

It takes time to bleed out. Small bullets poke small holes and small holes don't bleed as profusely as big holes. This is the primary reason why small caliber bullets are less effective in producing rapid incapacitation when CNS structures are not hit. More hits means more bleeding (and increased chance of hitting a CNS structure).

Lead bullets, especially lead bullets with a rounded nose, are more likely to be deflected by bone. Lead is a soft metal that readily deforms when it strikes bone - this does two things: 1) the energy used to deform the bullet results in less energy available to penetrate the bone, 2) deformation decreases the sectional density of the bullet which in turn decreases the bullet's ability to penetrate the bone.

A rounded nose is more likely to deflect and "skid" against bone when it impacts at an angle - like a car riding against a guardrail.

Finally, lead bullets are generally propelled at a lower velocity, which results in less energy, less momentum and less penetration potential when it hits bone.

A round nose .22 LR bullet is going to produce a smaller diameter bullet hole than a flat nose or expanded hollowpoint bullet. If it were me, I'd stick with a 40 gr bullet, either flat nose, like the CCI SGB, or a lead hollowpoint.

How close? In December 2006 Oceanside Police Officer Dan Bessant was shot and quickly incapacitated by a gang member who fired a .22 rifle from a distance of over 100 yards. The bullet struck him in the left armpit and entered the chest cavity where it penetrated the heart and liver. In November 1992 SC trooper Mark Coates was shot and quickly incapacitated by a drug runner who fired a .22 mini-revolver from a distance of about 20-30 feet. The bullet struck him in the left armpit and entered the chest cavity. The shooting was recorded by the dash camera in Coates' cruiser. After being hit Coates took 3-4 steps and immediately collapsed unconscious to the pavement. Coates eventually died from the wound.

 

[mgkdrgn]

a 22lr is more than capable of stopping a human at just about any distance ... eventually.

Real close and/or very well placed shots stop quicker, not so close and/or not so well placed shots can also "stop", but some times much much more slowly.

A 22 =short= from a short barrel pressed against the skull is a favorite execution method for the "company" crowd. Goes in one side, but not out the other, so it just rattles around a bit inside your head scrambling your brain ... very effective, and very quiet as well.

 

[M-Cameron]

I'm a smallbore shooter and shoot 22s almost exclusively, and let me tell you,.22s are a quirky little round....

Thy can be quite unpredictable...One minute they are plowing straight through plate aluminum.... The next minute they are bouncing off of 2x4s.

They also have a tendency to do some strange things when they enter a body.... There are reports of people being shot in the thigh, only to have the bullet end up In Their heart.

Is the .22 deadly..... Absolutely.......is it a traditional " man stopper".... Hardly....

It wouldn't be my first choice of If i was going into a gunfight..... But I wouldn't feel 'under-gunned' if it was all I had either

 

[230RN]

Hey, it looks to me that with that tubular mag, you can get 15 rd of long rifles in there, and 22 to 25 shorts, at your disposal.

Ought to do the trick. Even if you miss, a fusillade of bangs should make any BG (bad guy) reconsider his options.

And I agree with rcmodel. A semiauto 22 like a 10/22 with ten rounds is a darned good defense arm especially for the elderly, disabled, or just plain inexperienced. Better with an extended 15 or 20 rd mag, and it won't destroy the neighborhood if you miss a couple of times. .22 holes are easy to patch.... I am told, though I don't have first-hand experience in patching .22 holes. No, really. I'm not kidding. I don't.

Terry, 230RN

 

[BaltimoreBoy]

If I recall correctly, Marshall and Sanow put the 'one shot stop' percentage of 40g 22lr at 25%.

That compares to
50% for 158gr LRN for 38spl
75% for 200gr Silvertips for 44spl
67% for 230gr Ball 45acp
94% for 185gr JHP 45acp
96% for 125gr SJHP .357

(n.b. all of those figures are from memory and I don't vouch for them. But look it up for yourself.)

So, if you can get in a few proper hits you're probably ok.

 

[.22 LR]

this is all the info i have been waiting for!!

only ammo i have is the copper plated round noses 1200 fps

witch is all the gun store had at the time

also, does anyone happen to know the California law on carrying this gun? or anything close to it?

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Older 60 's hold 18 rounds. I rather use a shotgun but a 60 with mini mag hp and solids should keep you safe.

 

[mboylan]

OK for killing. Horrible for stopping. What good is it iif you get killed too?

 

[denton]

I'm no expert on the subject, but those whose opinion I respect pretty uniformly claim the CCI Velocitors are the most deadly 22LR cartridge. Apparently, they perform better than Stingers.

The best stats I can find say that if you are accosted by a BG, and display a firearm, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. If that's right, only 7% of the time does the caliber of your weapon matter at all. Criminals are not looking for anything remotely similar to a fair fight. They want an easy target.

 

[Agsalaska]

So, in my much poorer days, I lost my 12 gauge in a pawn shop because, well, I was an idiot. Pawn shop did nothign wrong and served me a great purpose. But I actually just forgot about it. Anyway I went to another pawn shop with $70 and bought a 9 shot H&R 22lr revolver. I lived in inner city Houston Tx in an apartment and that was it. I got pretty good with it and could unload that gun into a target in a real hurry. I actually almost used it one night on a drunk neighbor until I realized what was going on. It was another year before I got a 25acp tomcat and a few months later another Defender 12 gauge. The buying spree continues to this day.

I still have that revolver. And that tomcat.

 

[Tomcat47]

Velocitors are awesome.... 100 yard: 1084 ft/sec, 104 ft/lbs energy. -2.5" drop @ 100 yards..

They are a bit above Stingers @ 100 yards mostly in energy..

Federal use to make Spitfire which was even a little hotter than the Velocitor in velocity but had a 36 grain bullet.

 

[.22 LR]

ill have to see if i can get ahold of some velocitors!!

 

[JRH6856]

also, does anyone happen to know the California law on carrying this gun? or anything close to it?

The way California is going, I think that may be more of a fantasy than a serious question.

 

[Odd Job]

If .22 rimfire is all you can carry, then so be it: you have to accept it isn't ideal for self defense. My main beef with it is the rimfire ignition, which is less reliable than centerfire.

 

[Cee Zee]

I must have read 1000 posts where people say they will just pump 10 or 20 or 25 rounds in a bad guy and he certainly will die from that. He probably will. But I have severe doubts that even the best shooter can consistently put just 10 rounds into another person. The first thing is that almost all humans have it hard wired into their brains NOT to kill other humans. Armies spend lots of time brainwashing that unwillingness to kill out of recruits. Still your average Joe looking to protect his family is apt to hesitate or just flat out shake like crazy when pointing a gun at another human because they just don't want to shoot them even if it means dying themselves sometimes.

Even if you have been trained to over come that reluctance to kill there's still the fact that you have to hit the BG in a vital area in order to kill him. It happens often that people shooting at other people miss completely or hit an area that might cause a major boo boo but won't stop or kill the BG especially if he's on some strong drug or drunk out of his mind. I knew a guy who got so drunk he leaned over and put rested himself put putting his forearm on a kitchen stove. He didn't even notice the burner was red hot until someone told him he was getting burned. He nearly lost his arm from it. He never felt a thing he said - until the next day of course.

The thing is it takes several hits from a .22 to equal what one hit will do say from a shotgun. And you can keep firing rounds with that scatter gun until one hits and likely as not one will be enough if it's in a vital area. That ain't always the case with a .22.

Don't think you can stand out in the yard and play chicken with your little brother with a .22. But don't count on a .22 for SD either. They are plenty dangerous. But other guns are far more dangerous and I want to inflict all the damage I can if I'm forced to shoot at another human. And it does happen. Who knows if I will actually pull the trigger if I get put in that position. You just don't know until you get there. I'm just saying if I decide to pull that trigger I don't want to just make somebody even more mad at me. I want them down on the ground where 911 will be needed.

Too many people think they can take their Ruger 10/22 (it always seems to be Ruger guys because of the large mags available for them) and defend themselves effectively. Bad idea. Use a gun designed to kill bigger stuff. There just is no reason not to do that. The chances of hitting someone 10 times in the chest are extremely small no matter how well you shoot. Military types don't hit the enemy 10 times in a row in battles. If they did battles would be over much quicker and wars would be a lot less likely to happen.

A couple of other points. Many semi-auto .22's won't stand up to hyper velocity ammo. I've seen reports of Marlin 60's breaking buffers after 5 rounds. And as many have said, rimfire ammo is extremely unreliable in some cases. If you get a bad batch when you need a gun to work you're in trouble. And people talk about one shot kills from long distances with a .22. It can certainly happen. But there are cases like the guy who shot his lawyer 12 times from point blank range and the lawyer walked away. There's video of that on Youtube. All the net posts in the world won't change the facts and the facts are that using a .22 for SD is a "bad idea". I could talk about my wife's cousin who shot himself in the head cleaning his .22 pistol (unloaded of course) and the bullet traveled all the way around the outside of his skull just under the skin and came out on almost exactly the other side. They actually thought it was a through and through bullet when they looked at the holes. But it never penetrated the bone. That says a lot. It certainly won't happen that way every time. But it will happen more often with a rimfire than with any other type of cartridge.

 

[Millwright]

not sure if this is the right place, but i have read around and not got a solid answer as to how deadly a .22 rifle really is

now i know enough that you wouldn't want to use it as home defense, but i go to the desert often and racing events and bring it with me (rifle i bought at K-mart in early 90's) currently i have AR tactical copper plated 40 grain round nose bullets.

i hope i never have to but being a semi-auto how close would this gun have to be to stop a human??

again sorry if this is not the right place.

Not an "expert", but have shot a lot of critters with .22RF over many years. They all died.

The "double deuce" uses a heeled bullet (IOW it has a small cupped tit projecting from the back of the bullet which is gripped by the case.) which means its a soft lead projectile. Check some of the forensic reports on people shot with these. The bullet can "keyhole" and sail any which/what way inside the body all the while wreaking damage on vital organs. IOW pretty much akin to how the ball from an old "squirrel rifle" behaves. (I've shot deer with soft lead ball from these and its amazing how much internal trauma a round ball causes.)

IOW, the .22RF kills more by hemorrhage than shock disablement in large critters IMO. But the .22RF has long been allegedly favored for "wet work" by some organizations because it can be effectively muffled, (not silenced), doesn't over-penetrate, and is accurate. >MW

 

[rodregier]

One of the better descriptions characterized .22LR terminal performance like a long-range ice pick. There will be penetration, but less likely expansion. Depending on placement, eventually lethal.

 

[shafter]

It's deadly. I dropped an Alaskan black bear with a single shot right through the top of his skull at less then thirty feet. He dropped in his tracks but it was a perfect shot.

 

[22-rimfire]

In most places, it is illegal to "carry" a rifle except out shooting at the range, hunting, or where ever you are shooting that is safe (woods, field, etc.). Meaning... you can't carry a loaded rifle in your car and an unloaded gun is not going to do you much good.

In you home, I wouldn't be all that bothered to depend on a Marlin M60 for my safety. Sure there are better calibers and so forth, but you have a M60 and can probably hit what you point it at. Velocitors are my choice. If they are not available, I would go with standard HV copper plated CCI 22LR or LR HP's.

Most have no idea what they would do in an actual self defense situation.... If you feel you have to shoot to defend yourself (you are in fear of your life), I would start pulling the trigger fast and not look to see what the impact is. If they are standing, you keep shooting. They go down, you probably have time to flee and call the police. You don't "finish them off". When the threat is eliminated, you stop. If you are afraid they still might do something... get out of there ASAP and call the police. No poking the victim with the barrel to see if they move... This is said in jest of course, but people actually do stuff like this.

How many shots? I don't know. The gun holds 15 rounds.

I kept a loaded 22 in my apartment for years until I got something more powerful and even then I still kept that 22 loaded because I was confident I could hit what I am aiming at with it.

Eventually if you have the interest, you'll probably buy something else to substitute for the 22 rifle. Pump action shotguns work well indoors. Handguns work well. It is about personal preference and what you are comfortable with.

 

[.22 LR]

i will be getting a better gun or guns here soon, to kill somebody takes a lot of balls, my main thing is just stopping some body if need be then either flee or call 911

i have heard if u have a special lock and no ammo in the vehicle you can carry the gun??

as said the only ammo i have or can get atm is the cci copper plated round nose

 

[22-rimfire]

You will be fine. CCI HV solids are just fine.

Generally the gun must be unloaded and the ammunition for that gun physically separated from it. That usually means "out of convenient reach and perhaps in a locked container". You need to read the actual wording of the law.

If you have a concealed carry permit, you may keep a loaded handgun inside your vehicle or on your person. Long guns don't count. They stay unloaded if you are following the letter of the law.

 

[.22 LR]

that i do not have nor will be getting soon, but just needed to know some backround info about carrying it, now i know defense wise its not the best, but would most people if in front of you just mistake this as a bb gun? being as it looks like it