Another ASM with Colt Barrel Address

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I read somewhere that when Armi San Marco's first came out, they were the closest to 1st Gen. Colts with many parts being interchangeable with the originals.

I wonder if they changed from that standard at some point so that their own parts did not interchange.

This would mean there are FIRST GENERATION ASM's and SECOND GENERATION ASM'S.

Curiouser and curiouser!!!

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Yep, and nothing from Dr.Davis yet.

 

[Crawdad1]

There is no doubt in my mind that ASM was involved in the process of the Second and Third Generation Colts but trying to find the extent of that involvement is getting pretty frustrating. All I can find is same generic terms used over and over again, rough castings or forgings sent to Colt for finishing. That's it.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I too believe there is more to the story. Otherwise why would Lt. Col. Whittington have gone on record in 1981 that the Whittington Arms T.M.V. Walkers were built and test fired in Italy by the same company, ASM, that built the Colt (i.e., 2nd gen) Walkers, AND why is the fit, finish, and markings of some ASM Walkers identical to that of the 2nd gen Colt Walkers, but not identical to the originals in the same subtle areas.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

From page 24 of "History of Colt Blackpowder Reproductions" an article by by Dennis Adler:

"...As production (of the F series of 2nd. Gen. Colts) was winding down, Imperato sold Iver Johnson to a group of investors from Jacksonville, Arkansas....Iver Johnson did send their remaining 2nd. Generation parts to Armi San Marco, which produced a brief run of black powder models bearing Colt markings and the New York barrel address. Since they were not authorized by Colt, nor packaged in the 2nd. Generation Colt black box, they are not regarded as authentic Colt pistols...."

Since we have found these ASM pistols with frames proof dated as early as 1980 and some 2nd gen. models were still in production between 1980 and 1984, I wonder if these components were sent to ASM as each model ceased production after Lou left.

The article says that Val Forgett and Colt imported castings from Uberti for the C series but it just says "from Italy" when describing the source of the barrels, cylinders and grip frames imported by Lou Imperato for the F series that he then finished at his Iver Johnson plant with other parts that he made using gunsmiths brought over "from Italy." If the F series parts were from Uberti too, why not say so? Did Imperato get his parts from ASM originally and so it was the logical place to send them for the new owners of Iver Johnson?

If the C series is Colt/Forgett/Uberti, is the F series Colt/Imperato/ASM?

 

[Crawdad1]

Yea but how do we explain that the Third Generation Colts, which were also built by Lou Imperato with the Iver Johnson eguipment he purchased and that run of Colts lasted until 2003. Yet we have 'Date Stamped' ASM frames, which we know are finished in Italy, from 1980 and 1984!!! However under Italian 'proof testing' laws even a firearm in the 'White' has to be proof stamped so we know they were not built over in Italy, so we at least know that they were rough casting and forgings sent here. But how did ASM get finished barrels? The sale back to ASM seems plausible but the year the frame was stamped doesn't. it seems to me that the more information we get the more confusing it becomes.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Crawdad1, while the article goes into detail about the 3rd Gen. contract between Imperato and Colt and how it was different from his contract for the F series, it does not explain from whom he got parts nor who his workers were.

I agree the overlap of 2nd. Gen. production and ASM production is puzzling.

 

[Crawdad1]

Ephraim, that pretty much sums up my experience also. While I only have a limited library on Colt percussion revolvers, they all leave more questions then answers especially when you consider that you and a few others have noted some ASM revolvers with Colt stamped barrels and frame date stamps that directly contradicts the information contained in the books.

Maybe Elhombre has some information from Dr. Davis, hopefully.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Nothing from Dr. Davis as yet pards. It may just remain a mystery for the ages.

 

[Crawdad1]

Thanks Elhombre
But like I said before more than likely the answers to some of our questions burned up in that fire that destroyed all that information that Dr. Davis had on ASM.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

my Colt Dragoon

Here is a picture of my Colt 2nd Generation C-Series 3rd Model Dragoon serial number 22484 for comparison. The font is very plain, without the fancy bars on the tips of the letters that the previously posted ones have.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Lonesome
Thats an ASM? Barrel roll mark is indeed rather olain, nothing like my ASM Walkers. what is the date code?
Also. nothing from Dr. Davis. has anyone heard from him in posts on the various forum in the past several months?

 

[Crawdad1]

Compare the pictures of the Second Generation Colt Dragoon with the ASM Dragoon markings especially the capital letter 'T' in COLT. They are completely different.

 

[Crawdad1]

Even the fonts on the various generation Colts are different.

I don't know.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

elhombreconnonombre, the picture I posted is of a real Colt 2nd Generation C-series.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

The font used on the C series second generation Colts (as per LonesomePigeon's Dragoon above) seems to be different than the font used on the F series second generation Colts (my internet photo above.)

That would make sense if Forgett and Uberti did the C series and Imperato and ASM did the F series!!!

I wonder if the similarity of the C series font and the 3rd Generation font is significant???

The last post that I can find from bprevolver/Dr. Davis on any of the boards was from a good while ago.

I hope he is OK.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

This is the last post that I can find for Dr. Davis.

It has a different phone number.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561579

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

ASM even made a Colt marked fantasy gun as noted in one of the earlier links.

I bought this one on GB recently.

It is an Model 1851 of "ARMY" (.44) caliber!

As pictured below, it has the Colt barrel address but sadly the cylinder is only marked "Patent No."

Under the loading lever, the bottom flat of the barrel is marked "ASM BLACK POWDER ONLY CAL. 44 MADE IN ITALY."

In front of the trigger guard, the barrel and frame are proofed and marked with the serial number.

The frame there bears the date cartouche of "BA" for 1991.

The left grip face has the inspector's cartouche that EMF has been putting on their top line "Hartford" models for some time.

The trigger guard and grip frame/backstrap are either silver or nickel plated.

As seen below, this one came with its original box but sadly no paper work.

The label on the box end is printed:

ARMI SAN MARCO MADE IN ITALY
1851 NAVY STEEL CAL. .44
USE BLACK POWDER ONLY
COD. N. 8CA371851NA44

Also on the label is a bar code and the serial number "B86XXX."

 

[Crawdad1]

Great looking revolver Ephraim. But that lettering on the top of the barrel of the ASM is possibly the same font but the lettering is huge compared to what you'll find on a Second or Third Generation Colt. I'm convinced that ASM just stamped them using their own stamps and heck with what Colt had to say about it.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is an F series 2nd Gen 1851 barrel address.

I tried to match its pictured barrel thickness to that of my ASM 1851 in the above picture but it turned out a bit thicker.

Compare the ratio of the letter heights to the barrel thicknesses.

I think they are pretty close.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Crawdad1 - From the pictures, you may be right but I can't tell for sure.

I get a 2.25 ratio for one and a 2.32 ratio for the other trying to use a ruler and measure my screen.

Measuring the actual barrel, my ASM top barrel flat is 8mm across and the letters are just under 2mm tall but again that is free hand with a ruler.

I, sadly, do not have a real 2nd Gen to measure.

The barrel addresses seem realy close to me.

 

[Crawdad1]

I get 5/16th across the flats dead on and the lettering is about 1/16th high on a Second Generation 'C' Series '51 Navy Colt. Does that coinside with your measurements Ephraim? But its the 'Date' stamps on the ASM revolvers that I don't get given that in 1991 the Second Generation Colts are long gone.

Regardless, that ASM '51 Colt you have is a real sweet looking revolver.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Thanks Crawdad1.

That IS smaller lettering as the ratio would be 0.200 on your C series to my ASM which would be closer to 0.240.

But ... I think the C series were Uberti/Forgett and the F series were ASM /Imperato so we really need an actual F series measurement ratio as it would have been F series parts that were left over and sent to ASM rather than C series parts.

 

[Crawdad1]

Good point. We're always missing that one step.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I think the stamps in post 68(ASM) and 70(Colt) are very close but not the same. For one thing the legs of the M on the Colt stamp are wider at the bottom whereas on the ASM they are the same width all the way down. At least that's what it looks like to me.