Perhaps someone has some thoughts about how Mr Gold could have handled the situation better?
Another Good Samaratan Shot
- Thread starter Jeff White
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From the security camera's POV, it wasn't too evident that the victim was struggling -- or even conscious -- until just before Cain gets in the SUV, and she seems to be putting up resistance to having her purse taken. However, when Gold drives by, whatever he sees gives him enough concern to go to her aid. Maybe it was apparent that she was struggling with Cain. From driving down the alley the wrong way and his vehicle positioning, I don't think he was going in with the intent to just to render medical assistance.
So, proceeding from the assumption that he thought this was an assault or kidnapping, and was going to the aid of the victim:
Gold's an unarmed medical student. He doesn't exhibit any aggression when confronted with the armed criminal, so I'm going to assume he doesn't have a lot of training in this area. He appears to be on a cell phone as he approaches. So, what are his assets here: Some medical training, a car, and a cell phone.
His best option would be to call 911, regardless of their response times. Regardless of any other outcome, someone needs to know that there's at least one person who may need assistance, and possibly more depending on how things go. Before doing anything else, he should call the location and a description in to 911.
Now, he has a woman being dragged down the sidewalk against her will to contend with. How best to do that, assuming he's going to intervene and not simply observe and report to 911? I think by keeping his distance, staying in his vehicle, and letting the criminal know he's been seen in the act.
Staying at the head of the alley, putting on his high beams, and laying on his horn would be the best option for an intervention. (And might not be necessary to interrupt the kidnapping, as Cain dropped the woman presumably after noticing someone was coming up the alley.) It wouldn't be entirely safe, because the criminal could still chose to retaliate out of simple spite, but it'd be safer than running right into the middle of the situation. The high beams would give some concealment by screwing with the subjects vision, the vehicle a bit of cover and the mobility to extract himself from the direct line of fire, or from being run down by a vehicle. (Edit: At least by the subject's vehicle. This could also set him up for a motor vehicle accident if he does have to back out quickly. Intervention has a lot of risks to consider.)
His most important assets are his phone and his medical knowledge. He needs to get to the stage of helping the victim without becoming one for the medical knowledge to come into play.
So, proceeding from the assumption that he thought this was an assault or kidnapping, and was going to the aid of the victim:
Gold's an unarmed medical student. He doesn't exhibit any aggression when confronted with the armed criminal, so I'm going to assume he doesn't have a lot of training in this area. He appears to be on a cell phone as he approaches. So, what are his assets here: Some medical training, a car, and a cell phone.
His best option would be to call 911, regardless of their response times. Regardless of any other outcome, someone needs to know that there's at least one person who may need assistance, and possibly more depending on how things go. Before doing anything else, he should call the location and a description in to 911.
Now, he has a woman being dragged down the sidewalk against her will to contend with. How best to do that, assuming he's going to intervene and not simply observe and report to 911? I think by keeping his distance, staying in his vehicle, and letting the criminal know he's been seen in the act.
Staying at the head of the alley, putting on his high beams, and laying on his horn would be the best option for an intervention. (And might not be necessary to interrupt the kidnapping, as Cain dropped the woman presumably after noticing someone was coming up the alley.) It wouldn't be entirely safe, because the criminal could still chose to retaliate out of simple spite, but it'd be safer than running right into the middle of the situation. The high beams would give some concealment by screwing with the subjects vision, the vehicle a bit of cover and the mobility to extract himself from the direct line of fire, or from being run down by a vehicle. (Edit: At least by the subject's vehicle. This could also set him up for a motor vehicle accident if he does have to back out quickly. Intervention has a lot of risks to consider.)
His most important assets are his phone and his medical knowledge. He needs to get to the stage of helping the victim without becoming one for the medical knowledge to come into play.
old lady new shooter
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seventy-nine minutes?!?
DeepSouth
Random Guy
That's better than where I live, a lot better.
danez71
Member
Purse snatchers arent known for killing witnesses.
C'mon now,
You don't drag a mostly unconscious woman down the street in order to steel her purse.
Cain got in his car because he saw Gold driving the wrong way down the street toward him and knew there was a very good chance of there being a witness.
He wanted to conceal his identity and get away.... or kill the witness if needed.
In hindsight, Gold should have gotten close enough to get a license plate and only followed to car if needed.
But given the shooter's (Cain) quick actions to kill the witness (Gold), he could have (probably) just as easily stopped, walked up to Golds car, and shot him as soon as he saw that Gold was getting the license plate etc.
It doesn't really matter why Cain decided to take the purse and go. What matters for the purpose of our discussion is that at that point it was unnecessary for Gold to confront Cain. The attack on the woman was apparently over and it probably would have had a better outcome if Gold had not confronted Cain.
danez71
Member
Sure it does. It shows his state of mind; his intentions.
But he didn't "go",,,,even though he had enough room to drive around Golds car.
He chose to stay. He wasn't finished yet. He took it out on Gold.
I am of the opinion that, given Cain's callousness and openness, there was a good chance the outcome would have been the same except for Gold being shot in his car. Cain didn't even take off after he shot Gold. He stood there for a minute and tried to execute Gold with out any appearance of being concerned about what was going on around him.
Do you think Gold would not have been harmed if he just stayed in his car?
What is the S&T for this?
I think Gold would not have been harmed if he had stayed in his car and kept some distance between himself and Cain.
Gold initiated the confrontation that ended up with him shot in the gut by driving the wrong way down the one way street and stopping next to Cain's SUV.
He could have stayed at the corner and observed from his car. He could have driven past Cain's SUV, turned around and stayed behind him 3 or more car lengths back.
Gold entered Cain's space by pulling up next to the SUV, stopping and getting out of the car. He made himself a target. He made Cain's decision to do something about him very easy.
Cain didn't even have to shoot him, he could have easily run him over when Gold walked in front of the SUV even placing his hand on the hood as if to say "Stop! We're going to talk about this!"
There were several ways to handle the situation without walking up and saying "shoot me". I'm sorry but that's what I feel Gold did. I'm sure that's not the outcome he intended but that's the outcome he got.
The S&T for this.
1. Don't charge into a situation you know little about.
2. Always keep a reactive distance between yourself and a potential attacker. Cain didn't need a gun to hurt Gold, he could have exploded out of the SUV and knocked Gold to the ground and put the boot to him before Gold could have reacted as close as he was to the door of the SUV.
3. Keep an obstacle between yourself and a potential assailant if possible and you choose to confront someone.
4. Have a plan. Take a few seconds and think about what you will do if the person you confront doesn't react like you expect him to. What force options do you have? Where is your escape route?
5. Train for and study confrontations. Know that most people have a "bubble" they don't want others in and not everyone's bubble is the same size and sometimes it varies with the activity the person is engaged in. Unless you have to, for instance by taking someone into custody don't break into that bubble. If you break that bubble the subject will respond more often then not.
Cain was engaged in an attempted kidnapping and robbery (and who knows what else he had in mind) his "bubble" at the time was probably pretty big as he wanted to get away. Gold drove and walked right into that bubble.
Unless Gold tells us we will never know what he was thinking when he intervened or what he thought he was jumping into. Or even what his BAC was at the time.
I've listed other options he could have used to handle the situation that probably would have led to a better outcome.
Gold initiated the confrontation that ended up with him shot in the gut by driving the wrong way down the one way street and stopping next to Cain's SUV.
He could have stayed at the corner and observed from his car. He could have driven past Cain's SUV, turned around and stayed behind him 3 or more car lengths back.
Gold entered Cain's space by pulling up next to the SUV, stopping and getting out of the car. He made himself a target. He made Cain's decision to do something about him very easy.
Cain didn't even have to shoot him, he could have easily run him over when Gold walked in front of the SUV even placing his hand on the hood as if to say "Stop! We're going to talk about this!"
There were several ways to handle the situation without walking up and saying "shoot me". I'm sorry but that's what I feel Gold did. I'm sure that's not the outcome he intended but that's the outcome he got.
The S&T for this.
1. Don't charge into a situation you know little about.
2. Always keep a reactive distance between yourself and a potential attacker. Cain didn't need a gun to hurt Gold, he could have exploded out of the SUV and knocked Gold to the ground and put the boot to him before Gold could have reacted as close as he was to the door of the SUV.
3. Keep an obstacle between yourself and a potential assailant if possible and you choose to confront someone.
4. Have a plan. Take a few seconds and think about what you will do if the person you confront doesn't react like you expect him to. What force options do you have? Where is your escape route?
5. Train for and study confrontations. Know that most people have a "bubble" they don't want others in and not everyone's bubble is the same size and sometimes it varies with the activity the person is engaged in. Unless you have to, for instance by taking someone into custody don't break into that bubble. If you break that bubble the subject will respond more often then not.
Cain was engaged in an attempted kidnapping and robbery (and who knows what else he had in mind) his "bubble" at the time was probably pretty big as he wanted to get away. Gold drove and walked right into that bubble.
Unless Gold tells us we will never know what he was thinking when he intervened or what he thought he was jumping into. Or even what his BAC was at the time.
I've listed other options he could have used to handle the situation that probably would have led to a better outcome.
TheRealJQP
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Proper strategy: read John Derbyshire's "The Talk" to your kids. Over and over and over if need be.
old lady new shooter
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Unlike yourself and many others here, Gold obviously has no training in stopping a psychotic criminal. He walked over with his phone the same way as if he were walking to the checkout line in the grocery store. He had no plan at all, much less plans for several scenarios.
Your comment about him seeming from Cain's point of view to have been saying "shoot me" echoes what I posted previously about him just standing there with his hands up when Cain was literally getting ready to shoot him.
But I think I do know what motivated him, it was at a totally visceral level, he saw that woman being dragged and just went "That's bad, I have to do something."
That's exactly how I would have felt too, although I wouldn't have done what Gold did, because unarmed I know I would have no way to physically stop Cain and probably not any kind of persuasive skills that would have worked. I would not have wanted him to figure out that I was observing him. I would probably have noted the license plate and called 911 (which might actually have been who Gold was talking to on his phone), then if he stuffed the woman into his car I would have tried to surreptitiously follow him in my car so as to at least keep 911 informed of his location. If OTOH he threw her down on the sidewalk and took off I would have waited for him to get far enough away not to see me, and then tried to help her.
But being also not trained in this stuff I probably wouldn't have first thought of alternative scenarios before acting either. I hope I never find myself in such a situation but if I do at least I just learned that from this thread.
old lady new shooter
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Neighborhood patrols?
I'm still boggling about the reported 79-minute average response time there. Do residents of such areas form neighborhood patrols or similar?
I'm still boggling about the reported 79-minute average response time there. Do residents of such areas form neighborhood patrols or similar?
GBExpat
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dranrab
Member
Gold should have called 911, provided the location, told dispatch it looked like a kidnapping/abduction in progress and remained remote contact while remaining on the phone with dispatch. Armed civilian intervention should have been a back burner option unless the threat to the victims life was imminent.
Deltaboy1984
Member
1. Have a gun.
2. Called the Cops.
3. Confronted the perp from cover.
2. Called the Cops.
3. Confronted the perp from cover.
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