Another guy having dilemma choosing his first lever action cartridge

[DocRock]

If the recoil from a lever gun in 30-30 is "too much" or "not fun", then that effectively precludes one ever owning a rifle. The hottest loads available, Leverevolution 160s, deliver about 11.5 lbs recoil from a 7.5 lbs rifle.

Seriously. Those counseling that 30-30 in a lever gun "kicks too hard" need to turn in their man card and ask the Missus if they can sign up at ExtremeKnitting.com.

 

[greyling22]

Hmm I can't quite follow the term "fun to shoot" that you and the others were using. Can you elaborate more?
Is it just about lesser recoil?

Yes. 30/30 packs quite a whallop. It's exacerbated by the light weight, stock design and lack of recoil pad. It's fine for 2 rounds offhand while hunting, but other than that, it's not fun. Now, I'm recoil sensitive. Anything that hurts and I'm out. Ymmv.

You could load 38s or 44 specials and thin out squirrels or skunks, and magnums for deer and pigs. A 125grn lever evolution bullet out of a 357 would probably stretch out a ways if you wanted to shoot at a coyote. It's just a very versatile caliber.

 

[Nam Le]

If the recoil from a lever gun in 30-30 is "too much" or "not fun", then that effectively precludes one ever owning a rifle. The hottest loads available, Leverevolution 160s, deliver about 11.5 lbs recoil from a 7.5 lbs rifle.

Seriously. Those counseling that 30-30 in a lever gun "kicks too hard" need to turn in their man card and ask the Missus if they can sign up at ExtremeKnitting.com.

I don't know how 11.5 lbs feel like but how is it compare to 12 gauge shotgun?
Btw to me no kick = no fun , but I might be able to convince my wife to shoot it.

 

[Nam Le]

I'm reposting these questions as it's already on another page

1. Do you think a 20" barrel is too long for a camp gun, utility gun, truck gun, etc... and not merely for hunting?
Is it best to be a 16" or 18.5" at most?

2. For those uses, would there ever be a need to shoot beyond 100 yards?

 

[DocRock]

I don't know how 11.5 lbs feel like but how is it compare to 12 gauge shotgun?
Btw to me no kick = no fun , but I might be able to convince my wife to shoot it.

A 1 1/8 oz target load from a 7.5lbs shotgun delivers 23 lbs recoil, double the recoil of the hottest loads in a 30-30.

A 20" barrel is ideal. It's short enough to be handy, long enough to not bear too much velocity penalty. a good balance in 30-30.But, if you are never going to hunt and only want a camp gun ( driving around with a gun in your car in NJ seems likely unattractive unwanted attention of and subsequent incarceration by the Staatspolizie), a pistol caliber may be more suitable. I have a little 16" Rossi in 45LC that I like in that role.

 

[Nam Le]

A 1 1/8 oz target load from a 7.5lbs shotgun delivers 23 lbs recoil, double the recoil of the hottest loads in a 30-30.

A 20" barrel is ideal. It's short enough to be handy, long enough to not bear too much velocity penalty. a good balance in 30-30.But, if you are never going to hunt and only want a camp gun ( driving around with a gun in your car in NJ seems likely unattractive unwanted attention of and subsequent incarceration by the Staatspolizie), a pistol caliber may be more suitable. I have a little 16" Rossi in 45LC that I like in that role.

Thanks for the recoil info. That's definitely something I can manage.

I promise myself that if the crazy concealed carry permit condition won't go away next year, I will move to another state... but let's put that aside for now.
Hunting might come into the picture after I moved, who knows.

The thing is for 30-30 with lower capacity, I might need to get one with loading gate, while for .357, ten rounds in the tube would be more than I ever needed.
Which also means that I may have to choose between a 30-30 Marlin and a .357 Henry... Winchester with top eject is not for me.

 

[daniel craig]

I’m finding, as life goes on and I get older, that I HATE having so many different calibers that I have no guns in common with. Therefore, since you say you already have a .357 I’d say get a lever action in that caliber.

I’m curious though, having said you don’t go to the range to plink, only to train and that you don’t hunt (though maybe in the future) why not just save the money and buy more ammo to train with on your other firearms or put it to a land fund for PA/NC

And if you do plan on hunting a .357 is more than capable of taking a deer, remember people shoot deer with sharpened sticks going really slow (compared to a bullet).

 

[Ks5shooter]

If you reload recoil wont be an issue. Build your ammo to suit your needs.

 

[gotboostvr]

I'd suggest a 16" 357 lever gun of your choice. A 20" 30-30 isn't a big gun, but compared to a 16" pistol caliber carbine, it's a stark difference. Is hard to describe how much handier the little carbines are. I can carry my Rossi 92 all day one handed without issue. It's not cumbersome while crawling through brush. With the short throw follow up shots are quick.

Fellows I hunt with lug around 22" slug guns and 24" 45-70's in the thick brush and rolling hills where I hunt. The shorter barrel and smaller action make it a superb handling carbine.

You're not really losing much with a shorter barrel velocity wise with PCC's, they're not gonna gain much once you get past about 10-12" of barrel length. A little extra capacity, but that's about it.

While you COULD have separate ammo stores for both handgun and carbine, you could do alot worse than a big pile of 158gr JHP's or JSP's maybe a box or two of 125gr JHP's for the pistol and a box of 180gr LWFN for the carbine. That 158gr ammo will cover alot of bases out of either weapon.

 

[Nam Le]

I’m curious though, having said you don’t go to the range to plink, only to train and that you don’t hunt (though maybe in the future) why not just save the money and buy more ammo to train with on your other firearms or put it to a land fund for PA/NC

And if you do plan on hunting a .357 is more than capable of taking a deer, remember people shoot deer with sharpened sticks going really slow (compared to a bullet).

I don't know how $600 can contribute to a land fund, but thanks for the suggestion. That money saved definitely can be put into training.
The bow hunting thing is interesting though. Not even sure how it is humane & more encouraged & widely accepted comparing to gun hunting.

 

[entropy]

My choice of action base on range is: shotgun - semi - lever - bolt. Don't ask me why, it's just personal preference.

Shotgun is not an action type. Shotguns have been made in all the action types you have listed, and most others besides. Action type doesn't fit into what range you plan on using a gun at, though bolt gun users will try to tell you otherwise.

Plinking is kind of pointless to me.

Firing at differing targets at unknown ranges is pointless? Do you plan on pacing off every shot you take? Or carry a laser range finder? Not every target outside of a dedicated target range presents itself at exactly 25 yards, or 50...etc. This is why "plinking" is not pointless.

1. Do you think a 20" barrel is good for a camp gun, utility gun, truck gun, etc... and not merely for hunting?
Or is it best to be a 16" or 18.5" at most?

For most of those uses, it is longer than needed, but a 20" barreled rifle can still do all those tasks.

2. For those uses, would there ever be a need to shoot beyond 100 yards?

Very rarely. Possibly a truck gun in an "Oh, no we broke down in the middle of nowhere, and don't have any food" sense.

3. How much recoil difference between the two?

Substantial. But as mentioned, the .30-30 isn't a shoulder buster. Quite frankly, unless you plan on frequenting areas where grizzly/brown bear are, and you don't plan on hunting deer, the .357 is fine. It is actually a good deer round, as long as you realize the cartridge's limitations.

Hmm I can't quite follow the term "fun to shoot" that you and the others were using. Can you elaborate more?
Is it just about lesser recoil?

No, though that might be a part of it for some. Deriving pleasure from shooting itself. I understand where you are coming from on this, and I do commend you on your most logical pursuit of knowledge here. I too shoot to derive a logical goal from it, that of better accuracy, and shorter time for accurate shooting. That is part of how I derive pleasure from shooting. Sometimes it is shooting an historic firearm, or one that has family history, (I got a pheasant with my grandfather's shotgun, then passed it down to my older son so he can do the same), or hitting every target in clay target games. But I do also practice with purpose, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

If you do end up hunting, get a 30-30. If that's not on the table, I don't see anything that a 357 wouldn't work better for, especially since you're already buying 38s and 357s.

30-30 out of a Model 94-ish rifle has a little snap, but it's not bad. I think it comes more from the high recoil velocity (acceleration=force/mass) and the shooter's expectation of low recoil, rather than the cartridge actually being a hard kicker. To me, it feels very similar to a 243.

The 357s out of a lever action kick even less than the 30-30s. I am a small guy at 5'7", 158gr magnums out of a 4 1/2 pound Rossi get my attention a little bit, but out of a 6lb Marlin 1894 they don't bother me at all. 38s out of a rifle are nothing and will feel just like your 9mm carbine.

 

[daniel craig]

I don't know how $600 can contribute to a land fund, but thanks for the suggestion. That money saved definitely can be put into training.
The bow hunting thing is interesting though. Not even sure how it is humane & more encouraged & widely accepted comparing to gun hunting.

Depends on where you buy land and how long you want to save but $600 is a good start!

As for the bow thing, people see it as less dangerous because if you miss your arrow probably isn’t going more than 50 yards....or something like that. Idk.

 

[ThomasT]

I am not a fan of shooting pistol cartridges in rifles because you don't gain enough to make it worth it to carry a rifle when you could just carry a pistol. For paper targets it doesn't matter.

A 357 or 44 mag from a 20" carbine barrel gains 400+fps over a 4" barreled revolver. To my way of thinking thats a real boost in power. And a rifle is much easier to make hits with 50-100 yards over a handgun.

If you reload recoil wont be an issue. Build your ammo to suit your needs.

Yes. I agree. Learn to reload and your gun can be about anything you want. I have round ball loads for both the 30-30 and 357 lever actions I own that are suitable for small game hunting. Then every power level up to max loads.

A 357 Marlin is my favorite of the over 50 firearms I own. I love shooting that little rifle and its surprisingly accurate. And I agree with the others that said everyone needs a 30-30. I have 3 of them myself.

If you want to learn to hunt try small game first. That will get your feet wet in learning to stop, look and listen. Squirrels and rabbits and varmints can be just a tough to hunt as deer. Nothing wrong with a good 22 lever action. And most will cycle shorts, longs and long rifle ammo including the low powered Quiet type ammo that is now sold. I don't recommend the Colibri type no powder ammo in any rifle length barrel. It can and will stick in the bore.

 

[chicharrones]

In my opinion, you have to be honest with yourself if hunting will be something you actually do.

I know many folks that don't hunt, but will mention they want a certain gun if and when they finally start hunting. A decade or more passes and they still don't hunt. Nothing wrong with that as hunting for people that don't have land can be expensive. I haven't hunted in two decades because of costs of hunting here, which was much different when I had connections and all I needed was a hunting license, a long gun, and ammo.

In my experience, most people that own a .30-30 Marlin or Winchester that take them to a range will shoot half a box of .30-30 and call it a day. Part of it is recoil, especially if shooting a 1 lb. lighter Winchester carbine with no recoil pad. Otherwise, they only take those carbines hunting and shoot a few shots before hunting season to check sight in. So, usually less than a box of ammo fired for a hunting season.

For some reason, most people I know would rather shoot several boxes of .308 Winchester or .30-06 out of a bolt gun than do the same for a lever action carbine. What's that tell us? I'm not sure.

I can tell you that I've shot friend's and family's .30-30s whenever we are out and do a "gun swap". And each time I've fired maybe two mag tubes worth of ammo. Any other gun I've swapped with them, I've fired several boxes of ammo.

After that long winded trail, I favor the .357 magnum lever gun for the lower cost of ammo and knowing I will shoot around 100 rounds per range session with it. Hunting isn't even a thought.

 

[Jack B.]

.357 You already have a .357revolver. Share ammo. Just make sure it will shoot .38 specials

 

[danez71]

From what you've said, 357 with a 18.5" barrel.

 

[Nam Le]

@Ratshooter is your 357 Marlin pre-Remlin or recently made?
I too leaning toward a Marlin but even the recent feedbacks are not solid positive. Complains are not only about aesthetic.


Thank you all for the replies.

I think I have made up my mind about this: a .357 Carbine is most suitable to my current needs (or lack of needs) and will also help me to get started with hunting small games when chances arrive.
Once I've started hunting I will be able to see for myself if I need a more powerful or longer-range cartridge.

The guns I'm looking at right now are Henry Big Boy Steel Carbine (Big Boy X is nowhere to be found at the moment; the All Weather is 20") and Marlin 1894 C

The Marlin's is a being priced a lot higher than Henry's now with unsure quality. JM Marlin is even more expensive and I don't feel comfortable with buying used gun online...
Gun stores in NJ are small and spared, and I don't think if pawn shops are even allowed to sell guns.

Comparison:

* Henry Carbine
+ Easier and cheaper to get at the moment
+ Not much complains about the built (I heard)
+ Smoother trigger & action (I heard)
+ Better finish although that's not really important
- 7 rounds for any situation with no reload option.
- The standard loop looks shorter than Marlin's, not sure if it's true.

* Marlin
+ 9 more rounds + loading gate
+ 18", not too long & not too short, just nice, and looks more balanced too
+ Seems more popular & easier to find sights on Amazon where I got Prime for free shipping.
+ Better fit although that's not really important
- Hard to find & more expensive
- Quality concerns (I heard)
- Trigger & action require tuning (I heard) which increase cost further

Maybe it's just me but I have not seen any praise on Henry's quality & reliability yet.
People keep saying that "Henry only move up when Remlin became worse" and that sounds like a second choice to me, which is no good.
People also praise their customer service, but that's not something I hope to hear (no CS contact at all is the best).

On the other hand, there still be tons of love for Marlin out there with hope for them to come back. This kind of loyalty is completely lacking for Henry, and there must be good reasons.

 

[Nam Le]

In my opinion, you have to be honest with yourself if hunting will be something you actually do.

I know many folks that don't hunt, but will mention they want a certain gun if and when they finally start hunting. A decade or more passes and they still don't hunt. Nothing wrong with that as hunting for people that don't have land can be expensive. I haven't hunted in two decades because of costs of hunting here, which was much different when I had connections and all I needed was a hunting license, a long gun, and ammo.

In my experience, most people that own a .30-30 Marlin or Winchester that take them to a range will shoot half a box of .30-30 and call it a day. Part of it is recoil, especially if shooting a 1 lb. lighter Winchester carbine with no recoil pad. Otherwise, they only take those carbines hunting and shoot a few shots before hunting season to check sight in. So, back to less than half a box for a hunting season.

For some reason, most people I know would rather shoot several boxes of .308 Winchester or .30-06 out of a bolt gun than do the same for a lever action carbine. What's that tell us? I'm not sure.

I can tell you that I've shot friend's and family's .30-30s whenever we are out and do a "gun swap". And each time I've fired maybe two mag tubes worth of ammo. Any other gun I've swapped with them, I've fired several boxes of ammo.

After that long winded trail, I favor the .357 magnum lever gun for the lower cost of ammo and knowing I will shoot around 100 rounds minimum per range session with it. Hunting isn't even a thought.

Thanks for sharing.

To me the hardest parts to get to hunting are:
1. Convince my wife to accept the food that I KILLED - she's still negative on that whenever we brought up the topic although we're meat eaters.
2. Find a local group that will accept new hunters. I can do all the homework but still don't think it's a good idea to roam the woods alone for the first few trips. This may only happen when I move to a hunting-friendly state.

As for the cost to hunt, I'm not sure if you're referring to equipment costs when hunting on public lands, or the cost to pay for club membership.
I don't plan to pay for any membership, and wasn't aware that hunting on public lands is also that expensive. Can you help to explain a bit more?

 

[DocRock]

Thanks for sharing.

To me the hardest parts to get to hunting are:
1. Convince my wife to accept the food that I KILLED - she's still negative on that whenever we brought up the topic although we're meat eaters.
2. Find a local group that will accept new hunters. I can do all the homework but still don't think it's a good idea to roam the woods alone for the first few trips. This may only happen when I move to a hunting-friendly state.

As for the cost to hunt, I'm not sure if you're referring to equipment costs when hunting on public lands, or the cost to pay for clumb membership.
I don't plan to pay for any membership, and wasn't aware that hunting on public lands is also that expensive. Can you help to explain a bit more?

Re. Number 1, a few more weeks of Corona Shutdown may change her mind for you! Joking aside, my daughter was of the same view as a kid, then the Communist school teacher showed them some PETA horror video about the evils of industrial cattle/pig/chicken farming to try turning all the kids into vegans. After that she was strongly in favor of cage free, hormone free, antibiotic free, free-range whatever I shot.She hasn't taken to hunting, but she sure has taken to eating wild game.

Re. Number 2, good thinking! There are lots of hunt clubs in Western and Upstate NY that may be accessible to you. Don't forget that you will have to do your Hunter Ed course and even NJ there may be resources made available to address these well considered concerns.

 

[ThomasT]

@Ratshooter is your 357 Marlin pre-Remlin or recently made?
I too leaning toward a Marlin but even the recent feedbacks are not solid positive. Complains are not only about aesthetic.

My Marlin was made in 2002 IIRC and made by Marlin. But it was NOT a smooth rifle when I got it. I did a lot of work on it to make it as slick as it is now. And its smooth. It cycles rounds loaded with XTP bullets so smoothly you can't tell if you are stroking an empty or loaded gun. The Marlin 44 mag I bought was smooth right out of the box. It was made around 2005. But it had its own problems I had to correct. The forearm was jammed on the gun under a lot of stress. I had to fit the forearm and I glass bedded it while I was at it. It cut the groups in half at 100 yards after I did. Just because it is stamped JM does NOT mean its a perfect gun.

You want to do some reading here. The newest made Marlins seem to be getting good reviews. I can't speak on the Henry's I have never shot one but have read they are smooth and accurate.

https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/1894/

 

[chicharrones]

Thanks for sharing.

To me the hardest parts to get to hunting are:
1. Convince my wife to accept the food that I KILLED - she's still negative on that whenever we brought up the topic although we're meat eaters.
2. Find a local group that will accept new hunters. I can do all the homework but still don't think it's a good idea to roam the woods alone for the first few trips. This may only happen when I move to a hunting-friendly state.

As for the cost to hunt, I'm not sure if you're referring to equipment costs when hunting on public lands, or the cost to pay for club membership.
I don't plan to pay for any membership, and wasn't aware that hunting on public lands is also that expensive. Can you help to explain a bit more?

I don't know your area, but here in Texas there is little public land available for hunting. That means hunting leases have to be purchased. I haven't priced one in a few years, but one of my co-workers still hunts every year. The last time we spoke of pricing years ago, leases were $1000.00 per gun per season.

Back in the 20th century , I had family with land. I also had friends that worked for oil companies that would host hunts for no cost to the guests. I was an invited guest on several occasions. Those were good times.

 

[chicharrones]

@Ratshooter is your 357 Marlin pre-Remlin or recently made?
I too leaning toward a Marlin but even the recent feedbacks are not solid positive. Complains are not only about aesthetic.


Thank you all for the replies.

I think I have made up my mind about this: a .357 Carbine is most suitable to my current needs (or lack of needs) and will also help me to get started with hunting small games when chances arrive.
Once I've started hunting I will be able to see for myself if I need a more powerful or longer-range cartridge.

The guns I'm looking at right now are Henry Big Boy Steel Carbine (Big Boy X is nowhere to be found at the moment; the All Weather is 20") and Marlin 1894 C

The Marlin's is a being priced a lot higher than Henry's now with unsure quality. JM Marlin is even more expensive and I don't feel comfortable with buying used gun online...
Gun stores in NJ are small and spared, and I don't think if pawn shops are even allowed to sell guns.

Comparison:

* Henry Carbine
+ Easier and cheaper to get at the moment
+ Not much complains about the built (I heard)
+ Smoother trigger & action (I heard)
+ Better finish although that's not really important
- 7 rounds for any situation with no reload option.
- The standard loop looks shorter than Marlin's, not sure if it's true.

* Marlin
+ 9 more rounds + loading gate
+ 18", not too long & not too short, just nice, and looks more balanced too
+ Seems more popular & easier to find sights on Amazon where I got Prime for free shipping.
+ Better fit although that's not really important
- Hard to find & more expensive
- Quality concerns (I heard)
- Trigger & action require tuning (I heard) which increase cost further

Maybe it's just me but I have not seen any praise on Henry's quality & reliability yet.
People keep saying that "Henry only move up when Remlin became worse" and that sounds like a second choice to me, which is no good.
People also praise their customer service, but that's not something I hope to hear (no CS contact at all is the best).

On the other hand, there still be tons of love for Marlin out there with hope for them to come back. This kind of loyalty is completely lacking for Henry, and there must be good reasons.

Adding to what Ratshooter replied, I have a Marlin 1894 .357 magnum made in 2019 and purchased this year. Mine needed a lot of internal work to smooth out loading the magazine and improving the trigger. As much as I love my 1894 after the work has been completed, I have to recommend a Henry to someone that doesn't have the time or inclination to do home gunsmithing on a Marlin in .357. Or, the budget to pay a lever gun gunsmith to make a Marlin .357 right.

From my research, the .44 mag, .45 Colt, .45-70, and .30-30 Marlins don't have the loading issues of the .357 mag Marlins.

 

[ThomasT]

Thanks for sharing.

To me the hardest parts to get to hunting are:
1. Convince my wife to accept the food that I KILLED - she's still negative on that whenever we brought up the topic although we're meat eaters.
2. Find a local group that will accept new hunters. I can do all the homework but still don't think it's a good idea to roam the woods alone for the first few trips. This may only happen when I move to a hunting-friendly state.

As for the cost to hunt, I'm not sure if you're referring to equipment costs when hunting on public lands, or the cost to pay for club membership.
I don't plan to pay for any membership, and wasn't aware that hunting on public lands is also that expensive. Can you help to explain a bit more?

I wouldn't join a hunting club unless there is just no other way to hunt. If you have public hunting lands then use them. Tx has a lot of public hunting that I shot my first deer on. And its still the biggest white tail I have ever killed.

I have hunted and fished alone all my life and walked miles and miles through the woods and creeks and never had the least bit of trouble. After all if you are hunting you are armed. No body wants to be shot even if all you have with you is a 22 rifle. And a 22 can be positively deadly. Hunting can be as cheap or expensive as you want to make it. You don't need 90% of the gear sold by Cabelas or Bass Pro to hunt. I don't even wear camo. Just earth toned clothes. I made my only bow kill on a deer wearing a red tee shirt, blue jeans and white tennis shoes.

Buy a game cook book and follow the directions. The biggest mistake most people make is over cooking wild game. Its lean and easy to dry out while cooking.

 

[Nam Le]

Perhaps one last question - I just now found a used Marlin 1894CS for sale online.
After a bit of research it seems like Marlin drop that `S` in 2001, while Remington took over only happened in 2007.

So is it safe to say that the gun is definitely made on or before 2001, and before Remington took over?