Another hole in the memory question.

[WeekendReloader]

After I size them, they go into my 7 hole case gauge flush. All of them. Then I run it through and put bullets in and some will sit flat and others will be raised up to different heights. That's seven that came off the press one after the other. My understanding is that they should come out of the seating die the same height. About 95% of the brass is new Winchester I got a big bulk deal on. The rest is almost all once shot of my own. I re metered some of the ones I considered "acceptable" to shoot and all the ones that went in the to be pulled bin. The seating die was not adjusted while I did this run of 50. The pistol will be a Ruger Max 9 and when it comes back from the manufacture a Taurus G3C

Acceptable. Pulled out of the box of 50 and measured at random.
1.127
1.117
1.121
1.122
1.125

Pull bin
1.112
1.137
1.131
1.129
1.134
1.144
1.116
1.141
1.139
1.139
1.136
1.135
1.115
1.109
1.118
1.138
1.115
1.134
1.138
1.138
1.135

Maybe my meter is cacked? I zero after each test. I have a new seating die arriving tomorrow. Outside possibility of a bad die. I still suspect the problem is between the chair and the lever.
Captain Quack. (Who does not have 40 years of experience and knows he knows almost nothing about reloading beyond the very basic basics and is not afraid to ask people much more knowledgeable than himself.)

Take the seating die apart and give it a good cleaning. Maybe the seating stem is sticking inside.
Also, try screwing in the adjustment down most of the way and then screwing the die into the press. Maybe the stem inside the die is going sideways a bit inside and catching on a thread because the adjustment is dialed way out? Just a thought.

 

[Captain Quack]

I'll give that a try that WeekendReload. My new seating die is supposed to be here today. When I get back from today's Doctor (chiropractor) It should be here, and I'll try that. I have to say, I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this talk of case mouth and case neck thickening. Something I need to read up on to understand if I can get it to process. Just use something like breakfree or carb cleaner on it?
Captain Quack

 

[Captain Quack]

I just had a sudden thought. Scary I know. I hand prime. I could never get the primer on the loadmaster working right. The love of my life and I sit and take turns. 100 primers and then swap while we watch TV, so our hands don't get so tired. Could that be what is giving me the erratic OALs?

 

[LiveLife]

I hand prime ... Could that be what is giving me the erratic OALs?

Only if primer cups are not seated to slightly below flush - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12576848

If primer cups are above flush, yes they can affect OAL variance.

 

[Captain Quack]

I'll dig 25 out of the prime bin and meter them. I know I squeeze them all the way in, but my Beloveds hands aren't as strong, although she says she doesn't have a problem with them. I also cleaned out the sizing die. I'll do about 25 rounds and then try 25 with the new seater die after it gets here.

 

[LiveLife]

I'll dig 25 out of the prime bin and meter them

Measure primer seating depth with the end of calipers.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'll dig 25 out of the prime bin and meter them. I know I squeeze them all the way in, but my Beloveds hands aren't as strong, although she says she doesn't have a problem with them. I also cleaned out the sizing die. I'll do about 25 rounds and then try 25 with the new seater die after it gets here.

If you can, try measuring them across the rim only, not the primer. That will tell part of the tale. The other part is to then measure across the primer and see if there’s a difference. I don’t have a handy visual to post.

 

[Captain Quack]

I assume you mean across the top of the rim and then across the bottom of the base? These are Winchester Small Pistol Primers I picked up during a sporting goods store grand opening. I must admit, I'm not impressed with the trays being bigger across than the primer tray.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I assume you mean across the top of the rim and then across the bottom of the base? These are Winchester Small Pistol Primers I picked up during a sporting goods store grand opening. I must admit, I'm not impressed with the trays being bigger across than the primer tray.

No, I mean from the flat/top of the bullet to the bottom off the rim. Just like checking OAL but make sure the caliper jaws are NOT touching the primer.

 

[Captain Quack]

AH! Got it now. Thank you for clarifying that. Just the length of the case minus the primer. More work for this afternoon.

 

[Blue68f100]

Just take a metal straight edge and run it across the base. If it contacts the primer you will feel it. Also setting a primed brass on a hard flat surface will wobble.

 

[LiveLife]

If you can, try measuring them across the rim only, not the primer. That will tell part of the tale. The other part is to then measure across the primer and see if there’s a difference. I don’t have a handy visual to post.

Just take a metal straight edge and run it across the base. If it contacts the primer you will feel it. Also setting a primed brass on a hard flat surface will wobble.

The reason why I use the end of calipers to measure primer seating depth is not all headstamp brass have flat case rim.

Some cases like Blazer have rim that are "dished" and top of primer pocket is below the plane of the outer rim of case. So using a straight edge or setting on bench top won't detect high primer cup. But caliper end will better allow you to measure from top of primer pocket down "into" the primer pocket to measure whether primer cup is below flush of top of primer pocket to properly set the anvil tip against the priming compound.

But OAL variance member @Captain Quack is seeing could be affected by above flush primers with case rim that is flat and less by case rim that is dished.

 

[longdayjake]

I can't get this to happen with Blazer, Winchester, Starline or Lapua cases. Using Hornady 115 FMJ.

The way flat base pistol bullets are made there is usually a final form die where the bullet goes into the die that shaped exactly like it should be and a punch comes in and smashes it all together one last time. Most of the pressure is at the base of the bullet at this stage so the base gets flaired out just a little bit. Then in the next station it goes into a final sizing die but the sizing die doesn't usually get all the flair out of the base because there's some springback. So, what you end up with is a bullet the is just slightly bigger at the base than at the body or near the ogive. So, depending on how pronounced the flair on the base is, it may size the casing a little big to fit the base but then it will be loose near the body. This is why loading rounds like the .357 sig can be a huge pain in the butt because the base of the bullet goes in first and stretches out the case but then protrudes past where the shoulder starts so the fattest part of the bullet has gone through but is no longer in the neck to be held on to. But if you can't get it to happen then thats a win.

 

[WeekendReloader]

I'll give that a try that WeekendReload. My new seating die is supposed to be here today. When I get back from today's Doctor (chiropractor) It should be here, and I'll try that. I have to say, I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this talk of case mouth and case neck thickening. Something I need to read up on to understand if I can get it to process. Just use something like breakfree or carb cleaner on it?
Captain Quack

Yeah, you can use any cleaner you want. The die is just a piece of metal. I used some CLP and a small brush on mine to really give it a good cleaning. If you use carb cleaner, I think you should follow with a little something to protect it against rust.

 

[Blue68f100]

The reason why I use the end of calipers to measure primer seating depth is not all headstamp brass have flat case rim.

Some cases like Blazer have rim that are "dished" and top of primer pocket is below the plane of the outer rim of case. So using a straight edge or setting on bench top won't detect high primer cup. But caliper end will better allow you to measure from top of primer pocket down "into" the primer pocket to measure whether primer cup is below flush of top of primer pocket to properly set the anvil tip against the priming compound.

But OAL variance member @Captain Quack is seeing could be affected by above flush primers with case rim that is flat and less by case rim that is dished.

If the base is not flat it will impact the caliper measurement too. Unless your base of the calipers are just a little larger than the primer size, which I have never seen any with that small of a base.

 

[hdwhit]

After the accident, there are still holes in my memory. ("There is a hole in your mind" Who gets the reference?)

Captain Quack.

I got the Babylon 5 reference immediately, because I feel the same way. In my case it was not an accident, but Multiple Sclerosis. Still, about 20 years of my 62 year life are missing. But take heart because the brain can heal, albeit slowly.

If you want to talk about this - which is way outside the scope of a Reloading Forum, message me.

 

[Captain Quack]

I was going to get into the dungeon and start working on measuring cases and running up more dummies etc, but I just ran out of energy and today has turned into a bad pain day. I have this funny feeling narcotic painkillers and reloading don't mix. After all this wonderful information, my brain bent. I'll have to come back to it to try and understand. Thank you all so much for putting in all this effort. Hopefully, tomorrow will be a better day and I can measure and pull the leaver to my heart's content.

We have a winner! I knew there had to be some B5 fans on here.
Captain Quack

 

[Captain Quack]

NMexJim: message #12. Case gauge does have a ridge. Primed and sized cases fit perfectly.
LongDayJake: message 13. Uses OAL 1.145. That's going to be my new target.
WeekendReloader: message 26. Stripped and cleaned seating die.
LiveLife. Message: 29. Checked 35 cases with a steel ruler. All flush
GeoDudeFlorida: message 34. Did that. Everything consistent.

Results of runs of 10 dummies
old die

1.142
1.142
1.143
1.151
1.140
1.151
1.145
1.130
1.138
1.139

new die
1.145
1.148
1.148
1.146
1.142
1.154
1.148
1.151
1.145
1.147

I breathed down on the adjustment screw.

1.140
1.140
1.139
1.140
1.137
1.142
1.141
1.145
1.141
1.146

Do those numbers look any better?

Captain Quack.

 

[tmd16556]

I’m in the dirty seating die camp. I’ve had uneven oal from berry’s 9mm Makarov bullets from lots about 10 years apart. They clearly changed something in their manufacturing process between my purchases. The seater and bullet profiles determine seating depth where they contact.

The other possibility is a dodgy battery in an electronic caliper? I thought I could t get consistent throw weights with powders, but it turned out to be my scale.

 

[LiveLife]

RMR 115 gr FMJ-RN ... 1.109" - 1.144"

old die ... 1.130 - 1.151 ... new die ... 1.142 - 1.154 ... [After adjustment] 1.137 - 1.146

Keep in mind that bullet tilt during setting of bullet and seating can add to OAL variance and "tolerance stack" to other variables such as case wall thickness/resized case length that have shown to affect OAL variance. (Why some reloaders use stepped "M" style expander to prevent bullet tilting)


Here's listing of OAL variance using different headstamp mixed range brass that were unsorted (By resized length) loaded with RMR 115 gr FMJ/RN on Lee SPP/Pro 6000 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...x-pack-pro-pro-6000-kit.913577/#post-12564288

Notice that thinner case wall brass produced shorter OAL than thicker wall brass due to shellplate deflection.

• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.133" (.005" variance)
• G.F.L. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.133" (.004" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.130"-1.132" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.131"-1.133" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.134" (.001" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.134"-1.135" (.001" variance)

Here's listing of OAL variance using different headstamp mixed range brass that were unsorted (By resized length) loaded with RMR 115 gr FMJ/RN on Lee 2023 Pro 1000 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pro-1000-unboxing.916672/page-2#post-12569726

• Blazer unsorted - 1.128" - 1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - 1.129" - 1.132" (.003" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - 1.129" - 1.131" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - 1.132" - 1.134" (.002" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - 1.133" - 1.135" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - 1.133" - 1.133" (.000" variance)

 

[Captain Quack]

I did get in and did a very thorough cleaning of the die and stem with CPL and a shotgun brush TMD16556. Twice. I think I can reasonably assume it's clean. Sure looks pretty shiny in there. LiveLife. I'm going to do another run, paying more attention to how the bullet sits. I have the powder/flair die slightly wider because my beloved better half will be helping with some loading. With me sitting there, of course. Just to make it easier for her to put the bullet into the case. I've not been so careful with the angles of the bullet. It's pulling that lever tires me pretty quick. I asked my Neurologist about starting shooting again, and she said for me to do it. Good exercise for the "Little Grey Cells" (Book/Movie/TV reference. Who gets it). That rather shocked the heck out of me, considering how anti gun numerous doctors are. I asked her if I could get a prescription for ammunition and a Kimber lol. LiveLife. I am having some trouble getting my swiss cheese brain around the whole effect of the case thing. Case and thicknesses and so for. I would say 90+% of the cases are new Winchester ones I scored a bulk order on (1k of them). I just realized that I didn't set the seating die not to do a crimp. I used a Lee FCD, but I was pulling the dummies out of the FCD slot before they went up. Could that have any effect? Currently, I'm leaning towards bullet angle possibility. At the moment, I'm wondering if that last run of dummies will be safe for me to shoot. We're finally getting some spring weather (we had snow yesterday) late next week, and we'd like to get out to the range. We only have one local ammo dealer and affordable 9 mm is still hard to find, and I have lots of powder and bullets and cases, and it's just a shame to not be able to shoot until I have this 100% resolved and safe, if that makes any sense. LiveLife. I book marked that that set up thread for the Less Loadmaster 1000. I'll be going through it. Thank you so much for starting it.

Captain Quack

 

[txtaxman]

Captain Q.,
Hercule Poirot is the reference.
In my opinion, it is better to seat and crimp in separate steps. I use and recommend taper crimp dies instead of the Lee FCD.

 

[Captain Quack]

And we have a winner! I do prefer to seat and crimp in two stages as well. I had read so many good reviews about the Lee FDC and my mentor recommending it that I figured that was the way to go.

 

[LiveLife]

LiveLife. I am having some trouble getting my swiss cheese brain around the whole effect of the case thing. Case and thicknesses and so for. I would say 90+% of the cases are new Winchester ones I scored a bulk order on (1k of them). I just realized that I didn't set the seating die not to do a crimp. I used a Lee FCD, but I was pulling the dummies out of the FCD slot before they went up. Could that have any effect?

SPP/Pro 6000 and 2023 Pro 1000 finished OAL measurements were done using unsorted (By resized length) mixed range brass seating and taper crimping in same step using Lee dies (Without FCD). I have multiple die sets in 9mm and could seat and taper crimp in separate steps but not for 3 station Pro 1000. But as expressed in finished OAL variance in previous post, .002"-.003" spread from seating/crimping in one step is pretty good using unsorted mixed range brass.

I was pulling the dummies out of the FCD slot before they went up. Could that have any effect?

FCD post-sizing carbide ring should not be contacting case neck where bullet base is seated to with typical bullets sized around .355" (RMR 9mm is sized slightly larger around .3555", similar to Speer Gold Dot/TMJ) unless you are using extra thick case wall brass with tilted bullets to produce oblong case neck or using with larger .356"+ sized bullets.

I have lots of powder and bullets and cases, and it's just a shame to not be able to shoot until I have this 100% resolved and safe, if that makes any sense.

Finished OAL variance will have more impact on group size/accuracy on target due to different bullet seating depth producing different chamber pressures.

To me, "finished OAL" consistency is meaningless if rounds experience bullet setback during feeding and chambering from the magazine as slightly reduction in OAL could increase pressure by several thousand PSI and I conduct neck tension/bullet setback testing by feeding dummy rounds from the magazine as QC step - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12503881

I book marked that that set up thread for the Less Loadmaster 1000. I'll be going through it. Thank you so much for starting it.

5 station Load-Master has been discontinued and replaced by 6 station Six Pack Pro/Pro 6000 kit. I believe you meant "Lee" Pro 1000 2023 update.

Both Pro 1000 and SPP/Pro 6000 presses utilize free-floating shellplate design with offset ram mounted under station #1 to reduce shellplate deflection induced by resizing force limited by carrier core similar to Dillon 550 design (Bottom of shellplate/case together make full contact with top of carrier core) and are capable of minimal OAL variance compared to other progressive press design that allows shellplate tilt/deflection on subplate ring.

 

[Captain Quack]

Brain is somewhat confused. My Lee 1000 is about 10 or 12 years old. I just ran an up a dozen with the new seating die after backing off the seating die to avoid crimp and fine-tuning the stem. 1.139 to 1.143. Is this good enough for me to powder up and crank em out?

Captain Quack