WST (Winchester Super Target) PUBLISHED load data for 9mm

[Texas10mm]

Love your stuff @forrest r , but by the time you see pressure signs on 9MM brass, it's up there. I do wonder what the pressure is, may very well be fine.

That there is the fly in the ointment. Traditional pressure signs are for RIFLE brass at RIFLE pressures. By the time you show those pressure signs in pistol cases you're up in the 45,000+ psi range.

There's only a couple of true pistol rounds that operate in that pressure range.

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks everyone.

Actual published data, load development with reloading variables data, range report with chrono data specifying pistols/barrels used all will help other THR members and guests looking to load 9mm with WST.

 

[Howland937]

One orange star is recommended minimum charge, 2 reds is max charge.

What does the ** reference too?

+P pressures at a lower charge, very short OAL.

If I'm not mistaken, that load was with the "V-Crown" noted by the JHP V
If you subscribe to their app, the little green dot on the line at the bottom is a scale, slide right to look for higher velocity offerings, left for lower.

 

[LiveLife]

View attachment 924803 Sierra data ... for 124 gr

2 reds is max charge.

And everyone please note ** max charge pressure reached with 124 gr JHP using only 4.1 gr of WST due to shorter OAL of 1.090" although velocity listed shows 1040 fps.

At that loading, if using mixed range brass with work hardened brass that will "brass spring back" to produce less neck tension and increased bullet setback, resulting chamber pressures can go higher. So definitely check bullet setback after feeding/chambering dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine when working with higher WST charges and use thicker case wall brass that won't produce bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Glad to see nice compilation of data coming together.

So looks like when using 124 gr FMJ/RN at 1.135" to 1.150" OAL, 4.0 gr would be good start charge and 4.6 gr would be non-compressed max charge provided that you are not experiencing any bullet setback (perhaps with use of thicker case wall brass) but for 124 gr JHP, use greater caution due to shorter OAL/bullet seating depth produced and consider reducing start charge down to around 3.6 gr and using 4.0 gr as non-compressed max charge (I can do case powder fill calculations later).

While I have worked with slightly compressed powder charge loads in the past, since most THR members use mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass that often results in bullet setback, I won't speculate on higher than 4.6 gr compressed WST powder charges. If you want to venture beyond 4.6 gr, be sure to use thicker case wall brass that do not produce any bullet setback.

 

[Howland937]

Another thing of note on the Sierra data app-
They list other 124gr. loads at OAL of 1.030 with JHP, but list their .355 bullet #8120 as JHP when it is in fact a RN FMJ. which would not be able to use the listed OAL. Its listed as JHP in the 38 Super data as well, with similar OAL discrepancies. Not sure if the newest Sierra manual does this as well, but #5 lists it correctly as FMJ with correct OAL.

 

[LiveLife]

And when I am conducting load development and come across published load data that are different, I will lean towards safety and use more conservative load data for my powder work up as I can always go higher.

 

[Crazy Horse]

And everyone please note ** max charge pressure reached with 124 gr JHP using only 4.1 gr of WST due to shorter OAL of 1.090" although velocity listed shows 1040 fps.

At that loading, if using mixed range brass with work hardened brass that will "brass spring back" to produce less neck tension and increased bullet setback, resulting chamber pressures can go higher. So definitely check bullet setback after feeding/chambering dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine when working with higher WST charges and use thicker case wall brass that won't produce bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Glad to see nice compilation of data coming together.

So looks like when using 124 gr FMJ/RN at 1.135" to 1.150" OAL, 4.0 gr would be good start charge and 4.6 gr would be non-compressed max charge provided that you are not experiencing any bullet setback (perhaps with use of thicker case wall brass) but for 124 gr JHP, use greater caution due to shorter OAL/bullet seating depth produced and consider reducing start charge down to around 3.6 gr and using 4.0 gr as non-compressed max charge (I can do case powder fill calculations later).

While I have worked with slightly compressed powder charge loads in the past, since most THR members use mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass that often results in bullet setback, I won't speculate on higher than 4.6 gr compressed WST powder charges. If you want to venture beyond 4.6 gr, be sure to use thicker case wall brass that do not produce any bullet setback.

LiveLife,

Thanks. That about where I'm at now. However, since I don't like getting to close to max (based on your observation and details) I'm hoping 4.3 will work well in terms of accuracy and recoil.

CH

 

[LiveLife]

I'm hoping 4.3 will work well in terms of accuracy and recoil.

I believe many match shooters arrived at around 4.3 gr for good combination of accuracy and meeting power factor requirement.

 

[Texas10mm]

I believe many match shooters arrived at around 4.3 gr for good combination of accuracy and meeting power factor requirement.

Exactly!

If you're not needing to meet power factor then 4.0 is a perfect charge. I'm actually going to start going down from there and see how low I can go and still function.

This comes from how well the 3.3 gr load of Clean Shot works and how soft shooting it is. The recoil between that load and the 4.0 gr of WST is quite noticeable.

I'm going to go down in .2 gr increments. I'm hoping to find a sweet spot in the 3.4-3.6 range.

Anytime I can get a pistol load below 3.5 gr I'm very happy! That charge weight gives 2000 loads to the pound and I'm extremely thrifty when it comes to things like that, even though I likely have a lifetime supply of pistol powder on hand.

 

[Walkalong]

Not 9MM, and W-231, but....

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/low-charge-weight-velocity-cycling-test.523172/

 

[Dudedog]

Wow,
interesting numbers for WST

9mm 124 gr FMJ WST COL 1.150" Start 4.8 gr (1025 fps) - Max 5.4 gr (1100 fps)

Hodgdon lists this for WSF which is slower burning
125 FMJ Winchester WSF 0.355 1.16 4.7 1015 27,700 PSI 5.3 1115 32,700 PSI

 

[LiveLife]

Wow,

interesting numbers for WST

That's why I devoted this thread to careful work up with WST and specifics to OAL.

For those wanting to load 9mm with WST and 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets, 4.0 gr would be good start charge and 4.3 gr recommended for typical 124 gr OAL of 1.135" with my personal max charge of 4.6 gr if not experiencing any bullet setback.

I hope to have some comparison testing and chrono data soon for 9mm and WST.

Of course, your mileage may vary depending on reloading and shooting variables.

 

[Dudedog]

Being between Titegroup and HP38 burn speed wise I would expect charges somewhere between the 2,
things don't always work that way and I sure wouldn't bet my gun or fingers on it......
4.0-4.3 seems more reasonable than a MAX of 5.4.


This is interesting data as well

Same MAX for WST and WSF???

 

[DaveinMiami]

I'd like to revive this thread. I just started reloading 9mm and the only powder I was bale to find was WST. It shoots great out of my .38 special oads after some careful load development work. I have some Hornady 9mm 124 gr. FMJ-Rn to load and was wondering if any of the other guys on this thread or the site have come up with an optimum load? I was planning to start at 4.0 grains as recommended but if someone has found a belter starting point please let me know as in these days of scarce components I hate to waste them!

 

[Crazy Horse]

I did eventually come up with a good load. 4.3 worked well, but I will tell you that it gets up close to the top of the case. It's not a compressed load, but it made me wonder.

I will add that for some reason, it did not burn as clean as when used on 45acp.

It will work well as it is the only powder you have, just be cognoscente that it will fill the case.

After I finished doing all the testing and settled on a load, I can understand why Winchester moved away from WST on the 9mm. to get the velocity that other powders offer, WST starts to get near the compressed load arena which puts it at max. There's not enough space in the case to push the bullet as fast (safely) as other powders can. I think that's why they came up with WSF. When you look at load data, you'll see that they only have load data for 38special and 45acp. Based on the size and length of those cases those have much more capacity than 9mm.

I started at 4.0 and settled on 4.3, then eventually moved away from WST for reloading 9mm. For 45acp, it works AWSOME, but that case is significantly bigger.

Good luck and tread slowly and carefully.

CH

 

[DaveinMiami]

Thank you very much! That is exactly the info I wanted to know. I measured the bullets at .593 and I plan to have an OAL of 1.155 to start, so there should be no compression of the charge between 4.0 grains and 4.5 grains. Nonetheless, I am loading for target shooting so I think starting at 4.0 may be the best bet. I will try to get hold of other powders and reserve this WST for .38 special loads as it is very accurate with 3.0 grains under a 148 grain DEWCBB. I really appreciate your help.

 

[1KPerDay]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not currently published for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

IMO you’re on the right track and will likely find a nice load between 4 and 4.5 grains. I’ve loaded and shot 16 lbs of WST primarily in 9mm and I use between 4.1 and 4.6 under 124 rn depending on how deep I have to seat them and whether they will function reliably weak hand only, etc.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Thank you very much! That is exactly the info I wanted to know. I measured the bullets at .593 and I plan to have an OAL of 1.155 to start, so there should be no compression of the charge between 4.0 grains and 4.5 grains. Nonetheless, I am loading for target shooting so I think starting at 4.0 may be the best bet. I will try to get hold of other powders and reserve this WST for .38 special loads as it is very accurate with 3.0 grains under a 148 grain DEWCBB. I really appreciate your help.

On oal, I went down to 1.120 using ACME 125 LRN bullets. I later realized that while the oal worked fine for my Glock 17, my ruger security 9. It would not function 100% in my M&P. That, for me, is because of the ogive on the LRN bullets. 1.120 functions reliability using plated and FMJ RN bullets who's ogive is smaller.

In your case, I would recommend making sure you plunk test your reloads on the firearm(s) you will be using.

GL
CH

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This thread, and the previous thread that started it, have been interesting, to say the least. I still stand by my statement that, even as much as I like WST, there are better powders for 9mm. In my early days of reloading, I got into trouble loading 9mm, with Unique... a much more forgiving powder than WST; thank Heavens I was firing them in a HiPower. That episode emphasized the need to pay attention to cartridge OAL, and specifically with high pressure cartridges like the 9mm, but is, obviously, a necessity in all cartridges. There is a reason there is no current published data for 9mm and WST, much like there is no current data for BlueDot in the .41MAG. When you have a page full of check boxes to tic off to properly engineer a cartridge that won't overload a firearm... something is wrong. Just my .02 worth.

I just came back from the range after testing new loads for.40S&W and was shocked that Unique performed in the bottom. I had no FTF/FTE problem-they all went bang and cycled the action- but accuracy was awful and they just weren’t getting the speed of other powders. But I used published data and stayed well inside the lines. If all I had was Unique and I needed ammo for a.40, any of those loads would be fine; but why waste powder on less than optimal loads?

I think that’s the real question: what is anybody expecting WST to do in 9mm that nothing else can do?

 

[Crazy Horse]

I just came back from the range after testing new loads for.40S&W and was shocked that Unique performed in the bottom. I had no FTF/FTE problem-they all went bang and cycled the action- but accuracy was awful and they just weren’t getting the speed of other powders. But I used published data and stayed well inside the lines. If all I had was Unique and I needed ammo for a.40, any of those loads would be fine; but why waste powder on less than optimal loads?

I think that’s the real question: what is anybody expecting WST to do in 9mm that nothing else can do?

OP indicated that it is the only powder he was able to acquire in this time of reloading shortages.

CH

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

OP indicated that it is the only powder he was able to acquire in this time of reloading shortages.

CH

Sorry Crazy, I was responding to Charlie’s post from before the topic was dropped. The original original poster made clear WST was preferred for competitive shooting and I fully understand that. I think that’s probably good for competition but is WST in 9mm a good idea for shooters who aren’t trying to make minor?

 

[Rule3]

There is lots of "data" on the web regarding WST and 9mm that pre dates the OPs thread by years. (other well known forums)
The question was raised long ago and many people were/are using it. Just because a powder was no tested, doesn't always mean it shouldn't be used.

 

[DaveinMiami]

Thanks for the reminder Crazy Horse! I did do the plunk test and all was well! I will report back on my findings.

 

[Otto]

Off Topic...
"LiveLife" who started this thread and has over 25,000 posts, hasn't been heard of in more than 5 months.
I'm hoping all is well whatever the reason may be.

 

[milsurpguy]

I have plenty of wst, loaded 9mm with it, the loads I use look a lot more like the hornady data.
I have loaded Sierra 124gr with about 4gr of wst, I don't think it was +p, didn't feel like +p, but didn't chronograph them.

IMO I think wst and wsf get mixed up a lot.