Another reminder of why a long gun is better for defence...

[crofrog]

So, I don't think that most sporting or defensive long guns are as slow and unwieldy as you think.

A hunting rifle or shotgun is long, yes, but not necessarily unwieldy. If you train with one, using a retention position, they can be surprisingly difficult to grab away from someone. And, one isn't likely to do one's own house-clearing, is one? (At least, not if one has any sense!) As a defensive weapon, a shorter carbine or short-barreled pump or auto shotgun is a very manageable tool, and I don't think the risks of a BG grabbing it are any worse than for a handgun. (Again, this assumes proper training.)

I agree with this completly. If long arm's where so unwieldy in tight spaces why don't you see SWAT team's using nothing but pistol's. The answer to this should be simple. Pistol's suck compared to a rifle. Harder and slower to make hit's with and the hit's you do make are less effective.

As to weapon retention. I'd argue a long arm is substationally easier to retain aganist a determined person. When used properly with a good "tactical" (aka single or 3 point) sling. There have been story's of people just letting go of the gun and letting the sling do the work why thry draw and fire there pistol, or pull out there knife and start the stabbin.

Most of the issues people have brought up thus far with using long arm's are training issues. For example you don't "swing" the barrel of the gun around. You keep it tucked in lower low ready or SUL, turn the corner and bring the gun up to low ready or on to target so as to not telegraph your postion. Just as one example.

 

[fletcher]

What ever happened to actually helping people out, especially a peace officer?

Unfortunately, liability.

 

[Cosmoline]

The advantage of handguns is primarily concealability and ease of transport. They are also useful in tight spaces and from odd angles such as shooting from a bathtub, bed or closet.

However, anytime you are up and ready the long gun is superior in every single respect. It is orders of magnitude more easy to aim and hits with far more power. Its bullets are a lot more effective, and the chance of sending rounds to blue sky or lord knows where is much less.

Most shooters in the US have a love affair with the short gun. Part of this has to do with the influence of Hollywood movies, and part has to do with the relative ease of finding handgun ranges in urbanized areas as opposed to the much rarer rifle ranges.

But like any other love affair, it can impair your judgment. There are many "experts" out there who will advise novice shooters AGAINST using a long gun for home defense and instead advocate a short-barreled double action revolver or semi! Never mind the fact that it takes YEARS of practice to master the short barreled DA or semi, even for close range work. A novice can control a fifty yard swath with a long gun after only a few day's training.

Handgun boosters even go to the extremes of inventing alleged dangers that supposedly come from using a long gun for defense--from the legendary "overpenetration" of the rifle round to these ninja attackers who can come up and grab your rifle barrel while wearing the wall-climbing boots.

Handguns have their place, but whenever you have the opportunity to get a long gun before confronting potential trouble--you should do so.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah, they are more powerful, but there is a HUGE liability involved in using slugs in a shotgun or rifle rounds for home defense.

Cite ONE lawsuit where someone collected damages for an overpenetration of a rifle round. The fact is, at rifle velocities it is FAR EASIER to ensure that the bullets fragment. Indeed it's often hard to PREVENT fragmentation on impact. Shotgun slugs, for their part, run out of steam very quickly and will be skidding down the road after passing through a person. A handgun round has a far greater chance of failing to expand or fragment. Not to mention the fact that every missed shot with a handgun has by definition fragmented.
And a .357 slug will ALSO go right through your neighbor's house if you miss the bad guy.

 

[Preacherman]

Overpenetration with long gun rounds is certainly a factor to be taken into consideration: but it's just that - a factor, not the be-all and end-all of existence. If you're in a heavily built-up area, where an errant round is very likely to strike another home or (God forbid) another person, you have to select your ammunition to minimize this risk. Many companies make rifle ammo that is specifically designed to stay in the body and not overpenetrate. One excellent example is Hornady: their 55gr. TAP load in .223 Remington -

or their 110gr. load in .308 Winchester -

have plastic-tipped bullets, and are specifically designed to rupture and fragment within the body of the target, minimizing any risk of over-penetration. Other manufacturers offer their own equivalent to these rounds, with much the same effect. Specialty manufacturers such as Cor-Bon also offer rounds for 7.62x39mm. that minimize overpenetration - if one is prepared to spend the money, one can tailor one's ammo to the mission.

Shotgun slugs and heavier buckshot do offer a greater risk of overpenetration, but one can avoid slugs in a congested area, and go to a buckshot load (i.e. #1 or #2 buckshot) which has a lower risk of this happening. If I were in a densely-populated urban area, I'd probably avoid a shotgun altogether, and stay with a .223 carbine loaded with TAP ammo, thereby maximizing the damage I can do to an attacker whilst simultaneously minimizing my risk of over-penetration.

In a rural, or less congested area, I'd use standard ammo without too many worries about overpenetration, as the risk of hitting an innocent bystander would be correspondingly less.

 

[depicts]

HD gun

lately I've been listening here to HD gun scenarios. It's convinced me that my handguns may not be the best first choice.

I was thinking I'd buy a Remington 870, until Preacherman showed the pics of the .223 cal 55 grain cartridge.

Seems to me, if I'm in my bedroom at night, no kids in the house nowadays, and I'm not going to leave that room, soeone who B&E's my house can take all the furniture and kitchenware they want. I'll be in the corner of my bedroom behind the Tempurpedic, with a gun aimed at the door. And now I think it will be a .223 Black rifle, like a Bushmaster or something. With the insertion of a magazine, I'll be ready to go, and have more shots than an 870 pump.

In Massachusetts, even with a CCW license, you can't carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle, so I'd probably stick with my .357 or Browning Hi Power.

As for someone breaking in while I'm at the sink making lunch, I see that way down on my list, but I think I could make it to one gun or another until I got to the AR. Darn, and I wanted to buy that 870 Express Combo 20 guage too!!!! Oh well, maybe the gun AFTER next

 

[NMshooter]

Considering how poorly buckshot penetrates compared to most handgun bullets I would not worry so much about anything other than a slug out of a shotgun.

.223, at least mil-spec ball, does not reliably penetrate all the way through a car. Though anyone inside the car might not like what happens to them...

7.62x39 and .308 ball are great for penetrating all sorts of stuff, soft points will help reduce penetration of hard surfaces while increasing effectiveness on people.

Any way you slice it, handguns are convenient, long guns are effective.

 

[Fred Fuller]

"Considering how poorly buckshot penetrates compared to most handgun bullets I would not worry so much about anything other than a slug out of a shotgun."
========

At longer ranges, perhaps. But out to 25 yards or so I doubt there would be any problems with buckshot. YM, of course, MV.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

lpl/nc

 

[226]

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Page 3, para 3:

...The probability of multiple hits with a handgun is not high. Experienced officers implicitly recognize that fact, and when potential violence is reasonably anticipated, their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible...

______

From Detailed Information Regrading Penetraition Of .223 Ammunition:

It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."

The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.

The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.

 

[USMCRotrHed]

Food for thought

All types of firearms have their place.

If you have a home intruder and need (for whatever reason) to clear the house. The intruder can see the barrel of a long gun coming if you have the gun at the ready. There are 2 ways to solve this problem, 1.) urban long gun training in techniques 2.) use a handgun.

That being said, I sat in on a training session with a former Secret Service officer who showed us the attribute of the Reminton 870. He taught us how to carry the shotgun so that it is "inconspicuos" and how to "draw" the weapon from that position and place 2 shots on target faster than a fellow officer could draw his duty weapon and get 2 shots on target. The scenario used was a traffic stop, but this could be used to check out that wierd sound in the backyard without betraying the fact that you are armed to your nervous neighbors.

Both types of weapons have their place, and must be accessable to be used properly. Most cops I know carry a long gun in their car, sometimes more than one.

 

[crofrog]

If you have a home intruder and need (for whatever reason) to clear the house. The intruder can see the barrel of a long gun coming if you have the gun at the ready. There are 2 ways to solve this problem, 1.) urban long gun training in techniques 2.) use a handgun.

You see just as many people lead around the corner with the handgun extended allowing for both an easy disarm and telegraphing there postion.

 

[JShirley]

If you believe you may soon be fighting for life (why else fight?), and have the option, a longarm should always be chosen.

.


John

 

[Correia]

I teach concealed weapons classes. I have taught a large number of brand new shooters. When I get to the portion on weapon type/selection, I always make sure that I write the following on the board:

ALL HANDGUNS SUCK

I then try to convey that the only reason we use handguns is because they are convenient. If there is any possible choice, get a bigger gun.

And what is up with all of this one or the other type of thinking? Have/train with/use both. Jeez people, the real world doesn't have to be a zero sum game. If I get into a gunfight, odds are it will be with a handgun, because I'm always wearing one. Whereas the times when I have a long gun available are fewer. But by golly, if I can grab a long gun, I'm going to do it.

As for the whole "unweildy" line of thinking, get some good instruction, and go shoot some 3gun. There is nothing unweildy about a carbine unless you are planning on getting into a gun battle inside an elevator or phonebooth.

 

[vynx]

oK I agree Long Guns = better.

Although, I really believe any attack on my person will not be started until the perpetrator is at arms length (3ft) or closer if I am away from my home this is a good time for a handgun.

At home a longgun ... there is a correct way to approach corners so your barrels will not "stick out".

Now concerning penetration...what about carbines in pistol calibers such as a Marlin Camp carbine n .45 for in the house or short distances outside.

Would these be much better than a pistol or would a 7.62x39 or a .308 be needed?

I know the rifle calbers are more powerful but there is the overpenetration issue not to mention if a shot is totally missed.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Following this logic, I should switch back to my 3" 629 (44 mag) for carry and stoke it with hot 300 gr loads . . . .

But given this and my impression that the 1911 is more popular for carry than the N frame smith, makes you wonder why.

 

[Lou629]

It all depends....

On the given situation. I don't know who wrote it, but i recently saw something like this quote on this very issue:

HANDGUNS are for when you think there might be trouble and you'd like to be prepared....

LONG GUNS are for when you know trouble is headed your way and you'd like to fend it off...

IMHO, have something more than bad language available, whatever it is.

 

[HerrWolfe]

For the home, pistol grip shotgun loaded with buckshot topped off with slugs. Not legal in some states ( and it makes poor choice too) as a vehicle or personal carry weapon. For vehicle, pistol is most efficient to use. Cannot see the benifit of rifle at any time for self defense, although I am more comfortable with rifle (M1) than anything else. If threat is at rifle range, there should be plenty of room for withdrawl. If threat must be dealt with at rifle ranges, there is a very serious problem.

 

[ctdonath]

Are there any good sources that can help me explain to a non-shooter why a rifle or shotgun is such a superior defensive tool?

When hammering a nail, do you want a small hammer or a large hammer?

 

[Thain]

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley

The only weapon that doesn't "suck" is massed artillery or bigger! I think its a bad idea to let anyone think that any small arm can have a 'one shot stop,' even with a long gun unless you are a military or police sharpshooter with time to aim I don't think anyoen can expect "One shot. One kill."

That said, I'll take a shotgun or a rifle over a handgun given the chance and if I expect trouble. But a pistol just stay out of the way so much better, and does a good enough job most of the time, so as soon as I can scratch up the cash I'm getting my CPL.

In any self-defense scenario, any gun -no matter how big or small- is better than being armed only with words that would make Art's grandma blush.

 

[NMshooter]

Umm, Lee, I was referring to other objects.

Buckshot performs well on people.

Sorry for the confusion.

And thanks for the link, that looks like an interesting site.

 

[ctdonath]

Cannot see the benifit of rifle at any time for self defense,

...wow...

Allowing for smart choices...
Hits much harder than a pistol.
Holds more rounds than a shotgun.
Penetrates armor & barriers like butter.
Can be fitted with a suppressor.

Obviously not a great choice where concealment & comfort is of dominating value, but for home it's hard to argue anything's better - particularly carbines.

If threat is at rifle range, there should be plenty of room for withdrawl.

Rifle range starts at 0m. Not much withdrawl room there.

If threat must be dealt with at rifle ranges, there is a very serious problem.

And you'd better have a rifle then, right?

 

[jlbraun]

HANDGUN:

.25 Auto (6.35mm.), 50gr. ball: 64 ft/lbs.
.32 ACP (7.65mm.), 71gr. ball: 129 ft/lbs.
.380 ACP, 102gr. JHP: 200 ft/lbs.
.38 Special, 158gr. LSWCHP +P (the famous "FBI Load"): 278 ft/lbs.
9mm. Parabellum, 115gr. JHP, standard velocity: 341 ft/lbs.
.45 ACP, 230gr. JHP or ball, standard velocity: 391 ft/lbs.
9mm. Parabellum, 115gr. JHP +P: 399 ft/lbs.
.40 S&W, 165gr. JHP: 485 ft/lbs.
.45 ACP, 185gr. JHP +P: 534 ft/lbs.
.357 Magnum, 125gr. JHP: 583 ft/lbs.
.44 Magnum, 240gr. JHP, 741 ft/lbs.


RIFLE:

.30 Carbine, 110gr. JSP: ME 967 ft/lbs.
.223 Remington, 55gr. JSP (equivalent energy to 55gr. or 62gr. military ball): ME 1282 ft/lbs.
7.62x39mm., 123gr. FMJ (equivalent to military ball): 1527 ft/lbs.
.30-30, 150gr. JSP: ME 1902 ft/lbs.
.308, 150gr. FMJ (equivalent to military ball): 2648 ft/lbs.
.30-'06, 150gr. FMJ (equivalent to military ball): 2820 ft/lbs.


SHOTGUN:

12ga. 2¾" #00 buckshot, 8 pellets, reduced-recoil load: 1174 ft/lbs.
12ga. 2¾" slug, 1 oz., reduced-recoil load: 1397 ft/lbs.
20ga. 2¾" slug, 5/8 oz., standard velocity: 1513 ft/lbs.
20ga. 2¾" #3 buckshot, 20 pellets, standard velocity: 1554 ft/lbs.
12ga. 2¾" #00 buckshot, 9 pellets, standard velocity: 1918 ft/lbs.
12ga. 2¾" slug, 1 oz., standard velocity: 2361 ft/lbs.
12ga. 2¾" #1 buckshot, 16 pellets, standard velocity: 2428 ft/lbs.

.50 BMG, FMJ, standard velocity, 12000 ftlbf.

From a physics standpoint ft/lbs is incorrect. Muzzle energy is expressed as force * distance = energy, therefore it is ft*lbf or ftlbf, not ft/lbs.

 

[crofrog]

Now concerning penetration...what about carbines in pistol calibers such as a Marlin Camp carbine n .45 for in the house or short distances outside.

Would these be much better than a pistol or would a 7.62x39 or a .308 be needed?

I know the rifle calbers are more powerful but there is the overpenetration issue not to mention if a shot is totally missed.

1. The terminal preformance of a pistol round of a carbine is no better than it is out of a pistol, in fact with certain hollowpoint design's the extra velocity will cause them to open to fast and under pentrate

2. 5.56 Nato (aka .223rem) pentrate less wall's that buckshot or any pistol round (9mm or greater) in the event of a complete miss. Specially when using TAP.

3.Also, with TAP you retain bullet fragmentation down to 2100FPS and gain controlled expansion under that velocity. It's IMHO the ideal self defense around currently on the market.


Other pluses for the carbine. You can easily mount close combat optics (CCO) and a weapon light. Reguardless of your personal opinion's on CCO's and light's it makes you more likely to hit your target, and allows you to properly identify and temporily blind your opponent. Especially moving targets why you are moving.

Significantly higher magizine capacity.

The ablity to effectivly hit targets from contact to 300-600m depending on your optic choice.

 

[JShirley]

Following this logic, I should switch back to my 3" 629 (44 mag) for carry and stoke it with hot 300 gr loads . . . .

No. In fact, that sounds like close to the worst combination I can imagine.

The whole point of "duty" caliber handguns (.38 Special to 10mm-ish power range) is to find the best possible compromise of concealability, power, and control.

Since we have hopefully established that ALL HANDGUNS SUCK, you want a reasonably powerful handgun that you can rapidly get back "onto" target and put another round or three into his zombie carcass. Using your 3"/300 loads- which WILL be designed for hunting, should be a great recipe to zip right through your target. You could just as well use .45 ACP, get a LARGER hole, more ammo capacity, and faster recovery time. And probably stand less chance of hurting innocents.

Crofrog, I agree that a rifle should be used if possible. You do, however, have some contradictory arguments. If you're concerned with overpen, since we know handgun rounds often penetrate more deeply than rifle bullets, shallower penetration for home defense should be a good thing.

John

 

[AStone]

Dang.

Didn't even get all the way to the end of the thread before being compelled to respond.

With a long gun, the action makes a big difference. How many shots can you get off ...

...with an 870P?

5; in as many seconds.

bang <rack> bang <rack> bang <rack> bang <rack> bang.

<reload> ready for more.

(yes, i live in an outlying area.)

up close and personal,
give me 12 ga. pump w/ 00,
24/7/365.

torso, head, shoulder, leg, abdomen?

don't much matter.

that load of 00 is gonna hurt an interloper intent on violence.

if i'm more than 10' from said shotgun,
i'll be wearing the 9mm.
(so that i'm more likely to get to said 12 ga)

Nem