Another reminder of why a long gun is better for defence...

[crofrog]

Crofrog, I agree that a rifle should be used if possible. You do, however, have some contradictory arguments. If you're concerned with overpen, since we know handgun rounds often penetrate more deeply than rifle bullets, shallower penetration for home defense should be a good thing.

I thought that's what I said. I'm a pretty inarticulate though...

I'm concerned both with over penetration of the target (ie I hit what I aimed at and it goes in and out) and with over penetration of the structure in the event of a complete miss (ie I'd like if possible to keep it in my house) as well as the wounding effectiveness on the target when I hit it.

I believe we are in agreement that rifles, specifically those in 5.56mm when loaded with OTM bullet's meet this requirement better than pistol or shotgun ammo that is also efficient and effective in wounding the target (eg birdshot may only barley penetrate an interior wall, it is however ineffective at killing the person I'm shooting at making it a poor choice).

So with the increased chance of hitting your target (only hit's count), the increased effectiveness of said hits, the decreased risk of over penetration of the target and the backstop, higher capacity, ability to more tailored to your mission and increased engagement range. What's not to love

Chris

 

[crofrog]

up close and personal,
give me 12 ga. pump w/ 00,
24/7/365.

00 is not a bad choice, but personally I'd load with #1b

From: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

 

[Preacherman]

I agree with those advocating #1 buckshot as probably the most effective anti-personnel load (apart from slugs, of course, which are a more specialized item). Note that in terms of energy, in my first post, the #1 buckshot load has substantially more muzzle energy than #00 buckshot - a product of the increased mass of the load. Certainly not something I want to get hit with!

Of course, if you want a really high-energy buckshot load, try Winchester's 10-gauge 3½" Magnum #00 buckshot shell, with 18 pellets... muzzle energy (and, doubtless, recoil to match) of 2889 ft/lbs!

 

[Helmetcase]

My Mossie 590 tactical has seven 3" Federal #00. Not quite sure what the muzzle energy on that is, but if that doesn't put them down, I must be getting invaded by a a rhinocerous and I'm screwed anyway.

 

[Tokugawa]

well, to get back to the thead, I suppose a 4 bore would be supreme but there are a lot of other factors involved besides stopping power. As in- can you dial a telephone? Can you look "non intimidating" when you check out a strange vehicle on your property? Or answering the door? Can you hold a flashlight? Can you open a door, or hold back your dog or do a dozen other things with a long gun occupying both hands? In many cases, discretion is far better than intimidation.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Shotguns here are 'go-to' long guns, and may not be limited to literal home defense. That may not be the case for everybody, but if you want to use paper sources to determine what you depend on for choosing a home defense shotgun load, make sure the paper you depend on is PATTERNING paper and not what some expert somewhere advances as a pet theory. Pattern your shotgun with a variety of loads at the range you expect to use it, and choose what works best.

Yes, there are lots more good sized pellets in a 12 ga. load of #1 buckshot than in any other load. They told me about that when I took my original hunter safety course in high school almost 40 years ago. And I have revisited #1 buck over and over in the intervening years and you know what? I have yet to find a barrel or choke that will pattern #1 buck worth a darn at 25 yards.

If I could find a barrel/choke that worked I'd sure use #1. But when I can get patterns of 3" to 10" at 25 yards using several 00 buck loads out of various barrels and chokes, I'm not going to bother with #1, even if theory says it is better. Better for me is pellets on target, not scattered all over. Granted, at a range measured in only a few feet, it won't really matter how #1 patterns at 25 yards. But I have no guarantee that my need for a shotgun will be limited to across-the-room range, and I prefer to stretch my 'buckshot' range as much as possible before I have to switch to slugs. About 25-30 yards is as much as I want to push my luck with buckshot, further than that and I'll be loading slugs out of the Sidesaddle.

Of course YMMV,

lpl/nc

 

[Biker]

Lee...

You've achieved 3" at 25 yards? With what combo, if you don't mind me asking?
Biker

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I will have to agree 12 guage shotgun with a pistol grip and 18" barrel is an all around great home defence weapon. Short enough to go through doors and hallways. Can't beat that "mythical" knock down power it gives either.
It will "mythically" slam you on your can whereas a pistol won't. Place a stock on it and teach the wife to shoot it by tucking it against her hip if she won't shoulder fire it.

 

[Preacherman]

As far as recoil goes, if one is uncomfortable with a shotgun's kick, there are choices out there offering good stopping power with minimal recoil. A used M1 carbine can be had for $400-$500 in good working order. A Kel-Tec SU16 can be had for less than $400 most places, and uses M16 magazines and any .223 ammo you care to use (like the Hornady TAP I posted about earlier). This is a short, compact weapon with up to 30 rounds on tap if you need them, and virtually zero recoil. What's not to like?

 

[tube_ee]

1. The terminal preformance of a pistol round of a carbine is no better than it is out of a pistol, in fact with certain hollowpoint design's the extra velocity will cause them to open to fast and under pentrate

That depends on the pistol round in question. Magnum revolver rounds tend to gain significant velocity from carbine-length barrels, auto-loader and "specials" (38 and 44) less so, or even none at all.

A 158-grain .357-caliber bullet at 2000 fps (easily doable with a Marlin or Winchester levergun) would be a formidable man-stopper, wouldn't you agree?

I can also shoot my Marlin 1894 almost as fast as I can an SKS, at least in aimed fire. With either action, I can have the next round chambered before I've recovered from recoil and gotten back on target. Spray-n-pray is another issue, but since I'm not part of a squad, suppressive fire isn't an option for me.

Is a full-power rifle or small-bore assault gun a better choice? Probably, but don't discount the pistol-caliber carbine out of hand. They've cartainly got a place at the table. And anyone who shoots and loves the magnum revolver should have a levergun in the same caliber. They're just too much fun, and too useful, to pass up.

--Shannon

 

[226]

Since we are now discussing round / load choices...

which duty load for .223,
TF 01-23-2006 16:08 post

eta: You know I've never heard of or read any studies or tests firing various long guns inside of a home defense type situation and if there are possibilities of temporary incapacitation / hesitation due to the aural report of fire. Sure, we may feel that we'll tune it out, but has this been mentioned in after action reports? Do entry teams use electronic hearing protection so they can maintain situationial awareness and magnify potential sounds that you need to hear? Just curious.

 

[ctdonath]

That's why I bought a suppressor. Triggering the equivalent of a flashbang 2 feet from my face doesn't seem helpful.

 

[Mulliga]

I don't see how firing a rifle indoors is anywhere near as bad as a flashbang. How can our soldiers in Iraq clear houses if every shot incapacitates them?

 

[ctdonath]

They have earplugs, are fully awake, and are ready for loud noises & bright flashes.

Me awaking out of a sound sleep at 4AM needing to repel boarders will not fare so well. Anything I can do to reduce the noise & light, especially with zero short-notice preparation, will help keep me alive.

Go fire a few .223 rounds indoors, lights off, at oh-dark-thirty, sans earplugs, and tell me how it goes.

Comparing it to flashbangs is, BTW, a literary device. Yes, flashbangs will be worse - but debating the difference is arguing over diminishing returns.

 

[cracked butt]

I have to disagree with some people who think that you are at a disadvantage up close with a rifle. A rifle can be a very formidable weapon within arms reach. If I had to deal with a knife wieldding psycho up close, I'd rather have the big heavy cudgel/sharp pointy spear combination that a rifle offers than a handgun.

 

[AStone]

I have to disagree with some people who think that you are at a disadvantage up close with a rifle.

I say that those who think that they're at a
'disadvantage up close with a' shotgun are correct.

Regardless of what you shoot - 9mm, 10mm, .45, .38, .223, .308, .50 ...
if you are less than 10 m away from a 12 ga with 00 or #1,
you are at a 'disadvantage'.

Just deal with it.

Nem

 

[rudolf]

Preacherman, thanks for speaking some simple asnd true wisdom!
My other reason for the shotgun is that you can aim 'over the barrel'. I can hold the black on a UIT Pistol target at 25 meters/yards with a shotgun that has NO SIGHTS. That means in home defense ranges I will hit what I intend to under the most adverse conditions. This makes the shotgun more effective and more safe, as I have less chance of missing and/or hitting the wrong person.

 

[Cruffler78]

I havent read all of the comments but what about a legally registered aow such as the amd-65 ak or 12 gauge shotgun

 

[benEzra]

My other reason for the shotgun is that you can aim 'over the barrel'. I can hold the black on a UIT Pistol target at 25 meters/yards with a shotgun that has NO SIGHTS. That means in home defense ranges I will hit what I intend to under the most adverse conditions. This makes the shotgun more effective and more safe, as I have less chance of missing and/or hitting the wrong person.

Same is true of a carbine, though I still prefer to use the front sight post as a visual reference. Required aiming precision at in-home distances is pretty much the same for the carbine as for the shotgun.

I havent read all of the comments but what about a legally registered aow such as the amd-65 ak

Would be handier, but I'd be concerned about the increased concussion and muzzle blast from the short barrel. Entry teams sometimes use 10" M4's and such, but they go in wearing eye and ear protection. They're also expected to dynamically clear the structure, whereas the homeowner generally isn't going to be. You also lose some in the ballistics department.

Shooting a 16" .223 or 7.62x39 indoors would be loud enough; I don't even want to think about shooting an SBR inside my hallway with no ear protection...for me, I'd take the reduced flash/blast of a 16" barrel as opposed to a shorty.

Now, if you're talking about a short-barreled pistol-caliber carbine, that would make a lot more sense to me. A 9mm doesn't lose much going from a 16" barrel to an 8" or 10", and muzzle blast will still be less than a handgun or rifle-caliber carbine.

 

[AStone]

Just deal with it.

Geez, sorry Cracked Butt. Didn't mean to come across so harshly. Wrote that at the end of a super long day. (All ... most...finished ...with ...this ...remodeling...project ...from ...hell .....must hold ...on ....just ... a ... little....longer...)

Should have put a smiley at the end.

For the record, I don't disagree with you about rifle v. handgun in an upclose situation. For me though, 1) I'm more likely to have a handgun handy than a rifle; 2) I'd still rather have my shotgun handy rather than rifle or handgun.

Nem

 

[cracked butt]

Nemato- hey no prblems here

 

[Dr.Rob]

Fact is even a .22 cal rifle beats many handguns out there.

There was a time when just about everybody had shot a .22 cal rifle.

Well times have changed. But the basic principals of marksmanship have not. It is easier to hit something with a rifle than with a pistol.

As far as what to stoke on your long arm of choice? You can make an accurate 100 yard shot with a shotgun slug. But for HD, #4 buckshot or bigger is your friend. I prefer 00 in a 2&3/4 inch shell.

 

[NineseveN]

I have a .45 in a holster at arms length attached to my bed frame. That's for when I am surprised and have no other choice but to grab and shoot.

My Mossberg 590A sits underneath the bed, but my 18" FAL sits next to the bed in the ready position and gets HD duty. 20 rounds of .308 ought to do...and with hornady TAP ammo, you've just leveled the OP playing field down to about where 00# Buck plays ball.

Handguns do indeed suck, but you need one when you cannot have access to a rifle.


And TAP ammo is not all that expensive if loading for HD. All you need is 1, maybe 2 mags full of it. If you need more than that, I suspect your situation has gone from home defense to civil war, terrorist act or something worse; and then it's time to break out the real ammuniton anyway, overpenetration be damned.

 

[olyAR73]

Make sure your using good expanding ammo in your .223 carbines. A buddy and I very recently tangled with a pair of bad dudes in the Sunni Triangle.
Distance started at about 100 meters and ended at about 150. Weapons used were M-4s with green tip. BG1 expired pretty quickly from head shots. BG2 took over 25 hits to the face, neck, chest, abs, lower back, both arms, and a leg. He was able to free himself from the vehicle and attempt to crawl away.

Docs said he will live to a ripe old age in Abu G prison, though he will never really talk again due to damage to the throat. I was involved in a similiar incident where a bud put over 15 good hits into a guys chest and stomach at bad breath range with the same weapons system. Same thing. He will live to a ripe old age, minus a spline and some other innards. The rounds stopped the attack but the bad guys in both cases were suprisingly alert and stable for soaking up so much punishment.

Experience has made me a firm believer in expanding ammo. It can be extremely hard to put a determined individual down.
Just my 0.02

 

[AStone]

Make sure your using good expanding ammo in your .223 carbines. A buddy and I very recently tangled with a pair of bad dudes in the Sunni Triangle.

Oly, welcome back from a place where the beings shot at shoot back. (Unlike those of us that shoot at clay, squirrel & deer.)

Congrats on surviving. Best wishes to you.

Please let us know if there's anything we - on THR - can do to make your re-entry into this less violent region (but increasingly violent everyday) more ... comfortable (inadequate words).

Anyway, your tale makes me glad I'm considering 7mm08 with 120 & 140 gr. bullets.

Be well.

Nem