This is how things go down in court. There are some things that will upset people on internet gun forums.
18 minutes of good information.
Another Texas Case discussed by the attorneys who handled it
- Thread starter Jeff White
- Start date
This is how things go down in court. There are some things that will upset people on internet gun forums.
18 minutes of good information.
Interesting how the aggressor reacted to seeing the defender's openly carried handgun. That's not how it's supposed to work, if you believe what you hear on the internet.
Seems like it's possible to argue that this would have gone down very differently had the defender's handgun been out of sight during the initial contact.
Seems like it's possible to argue that this would have gone down very differently had the defender's handgun been out of sight during the initial contact.
scaatylobo
Member
A great breakdown of a perfect shoot.
And yes ,if you are not aware ,you will be VERY sorry if your forced to use that mohaska you pack.
I am of the firm belief that it is MUCH better to be tried by 12,than carried by 6.
Regardless,if you need an attorney for use of force,you will be sorry you went that way,or walked that way,or shopped that store.
scaatylobo
Member
Considering how the dead man reacted to simple attempt to disengage = I doubt that would have made a difference.
I prefer to CCW at all times,and I make sure I wear and carry extra clothing to do so.
This "might" not have gone this way if there was no gun seen.
We will never know for sure,BUT the dead guy was acting & reacting to the gun he saw.
Buzznrose
Member
Agree. I would have moved the truck once I got the pics I needed when the guy became adamant I was in his spot.
Just easier to avoid stuff that way.
Why not just do it when the guy says he has a problem with where the truck is? I know it's going to take a few minutes, but imagine how much time he spent dealing with lawyers.
The “neighbor” a.k.a. Second Place Winner, may well have started the fight, with the same or similar actions, even if the protagonist had moved the truck, right away. The Second Place Winner is no longer available, to be interviewed, so, we simply cannot know, one way or the other, in this case.
Some people really do think that they own the street, in front of their home. In Texas, at least, with public streets, this is not the case.
It would be really interesting to able to interview the Second Place Winner’s neighbors, to see if he was one of those “prickly” types. I am thinking that he very probably was “prickly.” (“Prickly” is a very Texian word.)
Buzznrose
Member
What I meant was when done taking pics from the truck bed. But basically what you are saying. I totally agree, not worth the hassle for sure
He may very well have continued to instigate a confrontation. Maybe not, but we won't know. All we know is what happens when you're open carrying a firearm and refuse to move the truck until you leave.
I just think there's a good chance that the whole thing might not have turned deadly if he had just moved the truck. Second, kept the firearm concealed.
He was perfectly within his rights to leave his truck there until he was good and ready to leave. He was perfectly within his rights (I assume) to open carry.
I personally would rather ignore miserable people like that and continue beating them at life than be right and beat them in a situation that's going to escalate into me dealing with the police.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest things this guy had in his favor is he was a former cop, and that wasn't lost on the attorneys.
bdickens
Member
Words of wisdom right there.
N555
Member
And it was in texas?
Sounds like one less of those kinds of people to have to deal with. I feel like anything short of leaving immediately, just moving the truck, wouldn't have fixed anything.
Best take away was he didn't say anything to the police until he had his attorney. They make it sound like he already had a lawyer. Wow...
Sounds like one less of those kinds of people to have to deal with. I feel like anything short of leaving immediately, just moving the truck, wouldn't have fixed anything.
Best take away was he didn't say anything to the police until he had his attorney. They make it sound like he already had a lawyer. Wow...
Was he afforded the opportunity? Could they have departed any more quickly?
Sure. The attorney said that he continued taking pictures inside the house, then stood by the truck chatting with the real estate agent. There's no reason he couldn't have moved the truck over to the other side of the road, or into the driveway of the house he was working in.
aaaaa
Member
Seems the incident makes a good case against open carry. Had the neighbor never seen the gun would the neighbor have pulled a gun on him?
Also, if the truck was parked about an inch over the line, it would be reasonable to apologize and move the truck. If at the first prompt, the photographer had done that, it hopefully would have been over.
Also, if the truck was parked about an inch over the line, it would be reasonable to apologize and move the truck. If at the first prompt, the photographer had done that, it hopefully would have been over.
How would one assess the behavior of someone who would draw on an armed man?
Did he have in mind suicide?
The attorneys indicated that the aggressor was drunk.
I also thought it was interesting that another neighbor initially claimed that he witnessed the incident and that it was murder. That's something we don't often consider--the possibility of a witness that outright lies to police to try to get the defender in trouble. Makes sense that a person killed in a self-defense incident could have friends who might be angry about the outcome--angry enough to try to influence the outcome of the case to cause damage to the defender.
I also thought it was interesting that another neighbor initially claimed that he witnessed the incident and that it was murder. That's something we don't often consider--the possibility of a witness that outright lies to police to try to get the defender in trouble. Makes sense that a person killed in a self-defense incident could have friends who might be angry about the outcome--angry enough to try to influence the outcome of the case to cause damage to the defender.
I would wager that every cop has seen it. “Eyewitnesses” cannot be counted on to relate the story the way you experienced it. Besides someone that will out and out lie, they will relate what they observed with all of their biases and they will fill in what they didn’t actually observe with what they thought happened. If there are 5 witnesses to an event you will get 7 or more stories as they think about it and change their statement.
There is no way to know whether moving the truck sooner might have defused the situation. As I see it, when the “neighbor” was photographing the truck, after already having successfully entered his driveway, the confrontation had already begun, in the mind of the “neighbor.”
As the lawyers indicated, they had seen other use-of-force cases, that had involved the photographing of vehicles. When someone is photographing my vehicle, or my other things, or me, when I and my truck and things are in a place where I, my truck, and my things have a right to be, I see that as A CLUE. I may be right, but, I need to be aware, and if I am going to stand my ground, I need to be sure that piece of ground is worth the trouble. It may well be a best practice to smile, wave with ALL of my fingers extended, and suddenly remember that I have something I need to do, elsewhere.
I do believe that the openly-carried firearm may well have played a role in escalating the situation. Again, no way to know, with certainty. I carried openly, while wearing a police uniform, for 33+ years, and got plenty enough of “what you gonna do, shoot me?”
I do believe that standing outside, chatting with the realtor, after the task was completed, was an UNWISE thing to do. The “neighbor” had already displayed territorial behavior, regarding the truck, itself, being parked near the “neighbor’s” driveway. The photographer did not live in the neighborhood. The realtor did not live in the neighborhood. The “neighbor” probably saw them as outsiders, who did not “respect” his territory. The completion of the legitimate task would have been the time to get out of Dodge. Having a conversation, while standing by the “neighbor’s” driveway, might have been seen by the “neighbor” as further encroachment, or simply as showing disrespect. Think about it: “He disrespected me” has been the weak excuse for, well, how many incidents?
In the intoxicated mind of the neighbor, there is, first, the truck encroaching on his driveway, second, the sight of an openly-carried weapon, third, the delay in moving the truck, and, fourth, “outsiders” standing around, talking, which could be seen as a further affront. None of these things are illegal, unless the truck was blocking a portion of the driveway. (When I was an LEO, in Texas, I did ticket vehicles, if they blocked ANY portion of a driveway. I would have to write, in the Notes section of the ticket, how much of the driveway was blocked, and one inch was enough. I would only have a vehicle hooked-up and towed if its position would prevent a vehicle from entering or leaving the driveway.)
Notably, photographing houses, in a neighborhood, is seen as suspicious, or even an affront, by a number of folks. I have seen as much, posted on Nextdoor dot com. It is interesting to read the different trains of thought, going through folks’ heads, when they have seen a photographer, in their area. I should keep this in mind, if I ever decide to use my crime scene photography skills to start a second career as a real estate photographer, or an insurance company investigator.
As the lawyers indicated, they had seen other use-of-force cases, that had involved the photographing of vehicles. When someone is photographing my vehicle, or my other things, or me, when I and my truck and things are in a place where I, my truck, and my things have a right to be, I see that as A CLUE. I may be right, but, I need to be aware, and if I am going to stand my ground, I need to be sure that piece of ground is worth the trouble. It may well be a best practice to smile, wave with ALL of my fingers extended, and suddenly remember that I have something I need to do, elsewhere.
I do believe that the openly-carried firearm may well have played a role in escalating the situation. Again, no way to know, with certainty. I carried openly, while wearing a police uniform, for 33+ years, and got plenty enough of “what you gonna do, shoot me?”
I do believe that standing outside, chatting with the realtor, after the task was completed, was an UNWISE thing to do. The “neighbor” had already displayed territorial behavior, regarding the truck, itself, being parked near the “neighbor’s” driveway. The photographer did not live in the neighborhood. The realtor did not live in the neighborhood. The “neighbor” probably saw them as outsiders, who did not “respect” his territory. The completion of the legitimate task would have been the time to get out of Dodge. Having a conversation, while standing by the “neighbor’s” driveway, might have been seen by the “neighbor” as further encroachment, or simply as showing disrespect. Think about it: “He disrespected me” has been the weak excuse for, well, how many incidents?
In the intoxicated mind of the neighbor, there is, first, the truck encroaching on his driveway, second, the sight of an openly-carried weapon, third, the delay in moving the truck, and, fourth, “outsiders” standing around, talking, which could be seen as a further affront. None of these things are illegal, unless the truck was blocking a portion of the driveway. (When I was an LEO, in Texas, I did ticket vehicles, if they blocked ANY portion of a driveway. I would have to write, in the Notes section of the ticket, how much of the driveway was blocked, and one inch was enough. I would only have a vehicle hooked-up and towed if its position would prevent a vehicle from entering or leaving the driveway.)
Notably, photographing houses, in a neighborhood, is seen as suspicious, or even an affront, by a number of folks. I have seen as much, posted on Nextdoor dot com. It is interesting to read the different trains of thought, going through folks’ heads, when they have seen a photographer, in their area. I should keep this in mind, if I ever decide to use my crime scene photography skills to start a second career as a real estate photographer, or an insurance company investigator.
The Night Rider
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2022
- Messages
- 2,146
The most common thing that I heard when I had to deal with trespassers or crackheads at work was "Shoot me @#$%@#%! Shoot me!"
The most surprising lesson I ever learned was that "bad guys" are not intimidated by your gun In. The. Least. It's very likely that you are not the first person that ever pointed a gun at them
I actually agree with that. Every time somebody like that dies, the world is a better place.
But I'm going to do everything - everything- I can to make sure that the guy who has to shoot him is one of his neighbors, or the garbage man, or the meter reader, or the police. Not me. Not worth the hassle or legal expense.
N555
Member
Yeah I probably would have moved my truck after the initial encounter, but I bet the guy would have still come back.
I would bet 90% chance the drunk guy still would have come back had the truck been moved across the street.
I would bet 90% chance the drunk guy still would have come back had the truck been moved across the street.
bdickens
Member
Most people don't know that if you are in a public place where you can legally be, you generally have the right to photograph anything you can see from there.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Boy good thing he was open carrying, that extra 1/2 second to uncover the gun could have costed him his life. (End sarcasm)
Just cant make to much of speculation, we just don’t know what we don’t know.
I’m also one of those people that would have apologized right off the bat and moved the truck immediately upon realizing the guy had an issue with it. In my experience it’s the easiest and safest way to deal with idiots, morons, and drunks.
Just cant make to much of speculation, we just don’t know what we don’t know.
I’m also one of those people that would have apologized right off the bat and moved the truck immediately upon realizing the guy had an issue with it. In my experience it’s the easiest and safest way to deal with idiots, morons, and drunks.
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