Anti gun consequences of Paris attack

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That's correct -- which is why passivity, not active defense, became part of their culture.
That is different, but connected issue.

Jews generally in European societies relied on the protection of the Monarch. Legally, they were Monarch's guests and as such the same protection as to any other Monarch's guest applied to them. This status was permanent and went down for generations, the only way to avoid it was, apart from leaving, converting.

Being a guest has as its main downside the possibility of having the invitation rescinded. Which would put them, legally, into the same position as any other heretic, i.e. facing execution.

It was no more easy for a Jew in medieval Europe to use what you call "active defense" than it is for a homeless person to be assertive towards a hostile host family he gets to live with on invitation of one concrete family member.

To keep this gun related - this is similar issue to the one that gun owners face in countries where law doesn't allow for any practical instance where gun may be used in self defense. It is easy from our point of view - both you and me coming from shall issue concealed carry country - to deride someone in such a country for not using a gun to protect self during home invasion, but we never have to consider going to jail just for having the gun in the hand during the home invasion in the first place.
 
Hi all,

to get this back on track:


"Previously on desperate anti-gun functionaries"

The commision proposed some very harshe anti-gun laws,
a storm of protest reached parliament
parliament committee proposed 800 + amendments
in its last days the dutch presidenty of the counsil proposed some harshe 'reverse' anti gun laws,
i'll explain: the general law is very strict and member states can be leniant.

In two days parliament committee is to vote on their "final" set of amendments, so far it's looking good.

after that, they will start negociations with the brand new Slovak presidenty of the counsil.

Pro gun lobby has done its part, now let's keep our fingers crossed.

(by harshe I mean: all semi-auto long guns, that can contain more then 5 cartridge or that are equipped with removable magazines banned and probably even confiscated, mandatory medical and psychological evaluations)
 
You are right, that is the number for 200th Anti-aircraft Regiment.

The number for the Czechoslovak Foreign Army in UK was 15.7% before the 200th was transferred to UK.

You are right, that is the number for 200th Anti-aircraft Regiment.

The number for the Czechoslovak Foreign Army in UK was 15.7% before the 200th was transferred to UK.

Ive read somewhere that 1/3 of Czechoslovak forces were Werhmacht POWs and deserters (Czechs from Silesia, Hlučín, Sudetenland were usually conscripted as "regular Germans" into wehrmacht regardless their opinion). I dont expect them to be Jews.

btw: Situation around EU gun ban seems rather calm now, after Brexit, do you think its silence before storm?
 
btw: Situation around EU gun ban seems rather calm now, after Brexit, do you think its silence before storm?

The IMCO vote is today/tomorrow. I've spent quite some time in the night writing emails to MEPs involved. We will see now which way will it go.

I hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
 
EDIT: This is an open letter from a Czech gun rights association's president

http://firearms-united.com/2016/07/13/open-letter-mep-marlene-mizzi-demand-trust-respect/

Dear Mrs. Mizzi,

I read your circular email which repeatedly asks: What you need it for? My name is David Karasek, a spokesman of Czech firearms rights association, and I am answering your question from an Eastern Europe perspective.

To be honest, your reply angered me at first, but then I thought about it more deeply and I saw that it needs more detailed explanation.

Please don’t take this answer as offense or a personal attack. It isn’t meant as either. In my discussions with both colleagues and opponents from Western countries, I learned that disagreement and misunderstanding often comes not from personal qualities of either side, rather than from deep cultural gap between Western and Eastern Europe, between well-established democracies and post-communist republics.
Eastern European view

The point in question, to which I’d like to provide Eastern European view, is this:

As for the difference between 20 and 30 rounds and 2 or 3 seconds to change the magazine, could you please let me know for what exactly do you use magazines with a capacity of 30 rounds and where and what do you shoot with such an exceptionally high rounds of bullets?

If it is for sport shooting you should be exempt, if it is for collecting you also should be exempt.

I assume that it was answer to explanation that magazine capacity limitation has no meaningful security impact. I hear similar questions quite often

“Why is it so big issue? Who needs it, and what for, anyway?”

Such answer usually provokes negative response. I guess that everybody understands why. It basically says

“I don’t need to explain to you why it should be banned. It goes without question. But if you can convince me that you need it, then I might give you an exceptional permission.”

I assume that nobody likes that.

But to understand HOW MUCH we Eastern Europeans dislike it, you would have to actually spend some years in totalitarian state which treats people in this way – deciding for the people what’s good for them, what they need, what they should and shouldn’t be allowed to have or do.

We got four decades of it, and we remember it very well. We are not ‘well-established democracy’. We are democracy that’s so young that most of us still remember its beginning – and before. It started when we said “enough” and refused to obey laws which said that state has power to decide how we should live our lives.

Personal liberty, won by this disobedience, is today one of our core values.
“Citizen’s needs are his or her to decide; the state has no say in it”

is not just principle on which our state operates, it is also one of roots of its legitimacy. That’s what we revolted for.

Of course, it’s not unlimited. We don’t allow driving without license, we don’t sell heroine like sugar, we don’t allow storing artillery shells in residential districts, and so on. But whenever those limitations and bans are discussed and decided, the question “what you need it for?” is not in the equation.

Our firearms law reflects it too. Contrary to popular opinion, it is quite strict, or I would say well safeguarded. Many requirements contained in now discussed proposal are already part of our national firearms law for many years – medical screening or safe storage, for example. Semi-automatic firearms converted from military rifles are quite popular, and our law allows them – along with requirement that the conversion must be irreversible.

What is NOT part of our law, and would be met with furious resistance if proposed, is citizen’s requirement to prove his need for firearm.

I know that in some countries, the police decides what is “good cause” to have firearm, and whether particular citizen has it. That would be unthinkable here. Our Constitution says that everything that’s not forbidden by law is allowed, therefore our firearm law is based on assumption that every cause, other than criminal one, is good enough. Citizen can be deprived of his firearms rights, but only for serious security reasons enumerated in the law, and after due process.

The same goes with magazine capacity. Asking “Why should it be allowed?” and expecting citizens to justify their rights or needs is just not legitimate approach here. The proper question is “Why should it be banned?” and the burden of proper justification and providing evidence lies squarely on the state. If the state cannot give it and prove it, citizens’ liberty takes precedence. That’s how we want it here.

Another issue here is justice. I often hear:

“There were so many concessions from original proposal, so many water-downs. We are willing to compromise. Why aren’t you?”

This also deserves explanation. We all know how EU got into this situation. The Commission neglected its legal duties about deactivated firearms for seven years, it resulted in death of many people, and now the Commission desperately seeks someone to blame and punish. This is true purpose of proposed ban on legal firearms and magazines; the Commission needs someone’s head on the stick, to wave it around and pretend to be protector, instead of culprit.

I hope that you see why we are such no-compromise hardliners here.
Compromises simply aren’t acceptable where justice is at stake

A crime has been committed, and you are charged, but you didn’t do it; what length of prison time would you be willing to accept as ‘reasonable compromise’?
Someone wants to rob you and you don’t want to be robbed; how much of violence and theft are you willing to suffer as ‘reasonable compromise’?
Someone wants to bully your daughter in the school, and she doesn’t want to be bullied; how much bullying is ‘reasonable compromise’?

There are no reasonable compromises in such a situations. Absolute refusal is the only proper answer. Telling legitimate firearms owners:

“We don’t want to ban all semiautomatics, or even all conversions, all we ask you is to give up 20+ magazines – why aren’t you willing to even this small concession?”

is like telling black Americans: “We don’t want you to wear chains or slave in cotton fields, all we ask you is to sit in the back of the bus – why aren’t you willing to accept this small concession?” These ‘compromises’ aren’t unacceptable because they would be too burdensome; they are unacceptable because they are totally unfair. The Commission deserves punishment, not us.
Czech Republic treats people with trust and respect

You might wonder how Czech Republic can handle so many armed citizens with an attitude and yet keep the peace. The answer is: through trust and respect. Our state sees us as partners, not as risk or enemy. We participate in firearms legislation, and our input is respected and incorporated. The state respects our right to possess, carry and use firearms for any legal purposes; we respect reasonable security measures, like background checks, medical screening and safe storage.

The result is a law that works, simply because people follow it. The secret is: when rules are agreed upon, self-respecting people follow them, because they perceive it not as obeying commands, but as keeping their word. As long as the other side does the same, their self-respect motivates them to observe their promise, even when the same self-respect would motivate them to rebel against much less if ordered.

For a long time, there was a special state power in our firearms law. It was right of the government to impound all legal firearms during state of war or other national emergency. This year, it was repealed. Our state actually gave up its legal power to disarm its citizens during wartime. Can there be any greater proof of trust?

I hope that you aren’t much scared by how things are going here in Wild East. Actually, it is quite a peaceful East: according to Global Peace Index, we’re the sixth safest country in the world. I just wanted to show you that the democracy can work in more than one way, that liberty doesn’t have to be dangerous, and that strictest rules aren’t always the best ones, even when pertaining to weapons.

If you did read it to this point, I hope that you look a bit differently now on us and the whole issue.

Thank you.

David Karasek
Spokesman of Czech firearms rights association LEX
 
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Snejdarek,

Thank you for sharing this with us. Very inspiring letter. I also noticed that Mrs. Mizzi has already responded to this open letter, and completely missed the point of it.
 
A very sad attack, once again. Not much things that would do more damage in an extremely crowded environment than that 20 ton truck
 
Not much things that would do more damage in an extremely crowded environment than that 20 ton truck

On Hannity tonight Dr. Gorka asked whether Obama will now propose banning trucks.
 
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There are many consequences that civilized countries will be paying and they aren't all due to being anti gun. Freedom is not lost and countries not ruined on gun control alone.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
There are many consequences that civilized countries will be paying and they aren't all due to being anti gun. Freedom is not lost and countries not ruined on gun control alone.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
No, but with guns away from the general population, the way for taking away the rest of their liberty is much easier.
 
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According to newspaper articles, and internet comment, the truck was loaded with "firearms and grenades".Given the Gun Control Regimes that exist in Europe, one wonders how these articles were collected/obtained.Excuse me if that be a dumb question.
 
The latest news are that he had one actual revolver and multitude of fake guns and grenades.

My personal bet - without having anything to back it up - would be buying grenades on the black market and not knowing they are delaborated. Kind of like being a tourist and buying weed in the center of Prague from a dealer - it never is actual weed.

Otherwise the reports go on with that it seems he wasn't in any way directly connected to other islamists or serious crime. Which would explain why he failed to buy actual guns, of which there is plenty on the black market in France and Belgium.
 
Yeah this was a weird one, for sure. Real truck bomb (but a dud) and fake grenades, a mixture of operative firearms and dummies, but using an otherwise bone-stock common as mud rental delivery truck to do the bulk of the attack. Almost makes me buy the "mental incompetent" angle, though the "incompetent amateur" angle seems even likelier if he wasn't hooked up with professional groups (terrorist or government sting gone wrong). One conspiracy theory is he went off the deep end after realizing he'd been supplied with dummy goods ahead of his mission by whoever the hookup was (botched sting being the tinfoil-hat angle)

Kind of like being a tourist and buying weed in the center of Prague from a dealer - it never is actual weed
With Oregano prices these days, I'd be more wary of buying unlabeled spices from the corner store :neener:. Oh, and "I told you it was 'grass,' stupid; no refunds!" :D

TCB
 
According to newspaper articles, and internet comment, the truck was loaded with "firearms and grenades".Given the Gun Control Regimes that exist in Europe, one wonders how these articles were collected/obtained.Excuse me if that be a dumb question.
In many european countries, it is no problem to collect a lot of firearms legally. Gun control does not mean guns are forbidden, there usually are "just" some restrictions on types, ammunition, waiting periods, licenses etc.
The attacker himself however was a felon, so he would not be allowed to legally own firearms in france.
But don't worry, there is a huge black market even in the EU-States itself - Germany is estimated to have about 5 times as much illegal firearms than legal firearms - police forces in Rotterdam (one of the largest harbours in Europa) often find containers full of firearms being "imported". And if you don't have any underworld connections, in former Yugoslavian countries AK-47s from the war in the 90s can be bought for about 150-200€ and are relatively easy too find.
 
Amidst terror attacks of last weeks in France and Germany, Czech Republic reinstated border controls with Germany and Austria (the official version is that there will be more police presence in the borderland, but as I could see yesterday when driving to Austria, it was full swing border control for all entering Czech Republic). Meanwhile:

Czech President: People with concealed carry licenses must now realize that a situation may actually occur when they have to use the firearm.

https://m.novinky.cz/articleDetails?aId=410681&sId&mId
 
Also, as I was paying a €130 fine for failing to have a highway vignette yesterday (which had all signs of deliberate shakedown as it happened on a stretch behind the border with no gas stations where I could buy one - as I intended to once I reach any - but then again the cop was right that I should have bought it already in the Czech Republic/Austria off highway... my bad for expecting the same kind of professionalism from Austrian police as I would expect from Czech) I told them that I have a concealed carry license in the Czech Republic and being forced to leave the gun at home while crossing the border, I would like to know what is actually legal to have in Austria for self defense.

Pepper spray: legal

Knife: "yes and no" - "what does that mean" - "large rambo knife would be illegal" - "OK, so what size can I carry legally" - "that is hard to say" (seems like another shakedown opportunity to me)

"Totschlager" illegal. Is here any Austrian who could explain to me whether a collapsible baton is Totschlager or whether it is a different thing? Internet search seems to suggest that Totschlager should have the end on a spring thus delivering more damage than a simple collapsible baton. Is that right?

And I asked them the final question, whether a dash cam is OK. One cop says yes, the other says no. I might start calling Austria the shakedown country
 
Also, as I was paying a €130 fine for failing to have a highway vignette yesterday (which had all signs of deliberate shakedown as it happened on a stretch behind the border with no gas stations where I could buy one - as I intended to once I reach any - but then again the cop was right that I should have bought it already in the Czech Republic/Austria off highway... my bad for expecting the same kind of professionalism from Austrian police as I would expect from Czech) I told them that I have a concealed carry license in the Czech Republic and being forced to leave the gun at home while crossing the border, I would like to know what is actually legal to have in Austria for self defense.

Pepper spray: legal

Knife: "yes and no" - "what does that mean" - "large rambo knife would be illegal" - "OK, so what size can I carry legally" - "that is hard to say" (seems like another shakedown opportunity to me)

"Totschlager" illegal. Is here any Austrian who could explain to me whether a collapsible baton is Totschlager or whether it is a different thing? Internet search seems to suggest that Totschlager should have the end on a spring thus delivering more damage than a simple collapsible baton. Is that right?

And I asked them the final question, whether a dash cam is OK. One cop says yes, the other says no. I might start calling Austria the shakedown country
Just googled Totschläger, German version of wikipedia says it's a cloth bag like a sock, with an iron ball inside. There's a name for that in American English but I can't remember it, I've seen such things advertised. (Maybe something with "monkey" in the name? Oh the joys of aging...) Where did you find it defined as a type of collapsible baton?
 
Iron ball in a cloth bag (or a sash weight with a leather strap) is called a "sling shot" in the Tennessee "going armed" statute and are called prohibited weapons if carried outside the home for defense or offense.

I got a state-issued handgun carry permit a few years after the law was changed from "at discretion of county sheriff" to "state issue to qualified applicants", for defense only of course. I could carry a cane as a weapon of defense if I got certification from a martial arts trainer that I had received instruction in self defense law and stick fighting.

The contrast between gun and self-defense laws of member states of the EU and member states of the USA are quite interesting. I would like to read more from EU residents' experiences.
 
Just googled Totschläger, German version of wikipedia says it's a cloth bag like a sock, with an iron ball inside. There's a name for that in American English but I can't remember it, I've seen such things advertised. (Maybe something with "monkey" in the name? Oh the joys of aging...) Where did you find it defined as a type of collapsible baton?
That is called "the monkey fist". Quite popular in the Czech Republic in past couple of years.

Google images shows this as totschlager as first search:
Teleskopschlagstock.jpg

And then there are a couple of pics of collapsible batons. Which makes me confused as to what is defined as a Totschlager under the law. All the while I start to believe it is another shakedown opportunity either way.
 
Iron ball in a cloth bag (or a sash weight with a leather strap) is called a "sling shot" in the Tennessee "going armed" statute and are called prohibited weapons if carried outside the home for defense or offense.

I got a state-issued handgun carry permit a few years after the law was changed from "at discretion of county sheriff" to "state issue to qualified applicants", for defense only of course. I could carry a cane as a weapon of defense if I got certification from a martial arts trainer that I had received instruction in self defense law and stick fighting.

The contrast between gun and self-defense laws of member states of the EU and member states of the USA are quite interesting. I would like to read more from EU residents' experiences.
In the Czech Republic, only firearms are regulated (shall issue concealed carry). Basically anything else is legal to carry (outside of political demonstrations where it is no-weapons allowed).
 
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