Antique Chilean 7.62x51

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Mr_Flintstone

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Somebody help me out. I’m trying to decide whether to buy an antique Chilean 1895 Mauser. It looks to be in good shape, but it’s listed as 7.62x51/.308. I have doubts as to whether an antique (no FFL/background check) rifle would shoot .308. Would this use 7.62 CETME? Would I have to handload all ammo, and if so, what data should I use?

I really want to like this rifle, but I’m kinda unsure about antiques.
 
Somebody help me out. I’m trying to decide whether to buy an antique Chilean 1895 Mauser. It looks to be in good shape, but it’s listed as 7.62x51/.308. I have doubts as to whether an antique (no FFL/background check) rifle would shoot .308. Would this use 7.62 CETME? Would I have to handload all ammo, and if so, what data should I use?

I really want to like this rifle, but I’m kinda unsure about antiques.


There were lots of Chilean 1895 mausers converted to 7.62x51. Many were done by reboring the barrel and then using a really large insert for the chamber that was reamed and then soldered in place:

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I don't know if all of them were done that way, but I wouldn't shoot it. As you can see from the picture, the solder seems to erode. If it was a large ring (1912, I think) that was actually rebarreled, I'd be all over it.

Matt
 
There were lots of Chilean 1895 mausers converted to 7.62x51. Many were done by reboring the barrel and then using a really large insert for the chamber that was reamed and then soldered in place:

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I don't know if all of them were done that way, but I wouldn't shoot it. As you can see from the picture, the solder seems to erode. If it was a large ring (1912, I think) that was actually rebarreled, I'd be all over it.

Matt

Thanks. What caliber were these originally manufactured in? 7x57?
 
Thanks. What caliber were these originally manufactured in? 7x57?
Yes--the original was 7x57 Mauser. Morsey covered you quite well on the relative safety on it.

The Chilean 1912's were rebarreled with 1903 barrels that were crudely lathed to the step profile of the Mauser barrels. I have one and it is accurate despite being crudely machined on the outside (looks like a beaver with dull teeth did it).

The 1895's are not recommended for firing due to that sleeve. Some will disagree obviously but if the sleeve becomes loose--the M95 is not the greatest at handling gas and heat treatment was in the early development. The .308/7.62 is quite a bit higher in pressure than the old specs for 7x57 Mauser.

It is possible to go back to the previous 7x57 by rebarreling. I have both a long rifle m95 just back from rebarreling/headspacing at the local gunsmith and a calvary carbine. Both are accurate and well made with 7x57. You want a modern precision Mauser military profile barrel for it, Lothar Walther has you covered. From what I have seen, the Chileans took care of their weapons and climate probably helped these as well.
 
I would heed what others have said, however if you can find a decent or nice Chilean in original 7mm they can shoot good like many other contract mausers. 2 inch groups or slightly more at 100 yds with factory ammo is what mine averages. Here is mine. I also won't get one unless it has a matching serial on bolt and receiver.

However your questions brings to mind a 1916 Spanish mauser I bought over 10 years ago and after reading on the net the possible dangers it has just sat there. It is a CAI import marked .308 on the barrel. I didn't pay much for it would like to shoot it but I am leery to. My understanding is don't shoot .308 in a 7.62x51 unlike the opposite don't shoot 5.56 in a .223 maybe someone can verify that.

I might just go to a milsurp dealer I know one day and see what he will put toward it to a trade on another Mosin or Enfield if it is indeed questionable to shoot.
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My understanding is don't shoot .308 in a 7.62x51 unlike the opposite don't shoot 5.56 in a .223. ]

In theory, the .308 and the 7.62x51 should be interchangeable. There is, however, a difference in the maximum chamber pressure of about 10,000 psi between the two, with the civilian .308 being the higher, and with brass that's less thick than the NATO round. I wouldn't run .308 through it, just me personally.
 
Thanks. What caliber were these originally manufactured in? 7x57?

Yeah. They were 7x57, one of my favorites. Also, it might not necessarily be an antique, depending on when it was manufactured. If it is market "Manufactura Ludwig Berlin" on the receiver, it's antique. If it's a DMW receiver, you'll have to figure out the manufacture date from the serial number or something like that.

Matt
 
Also, it might not necessarily be an antique, depending on when it was manufactured. If it is market "Manufactura Ludwig Berlin" on the receiver, it's antique. If it's a DMW receiver, you'll have to figure out the manufacture date from the serial number or something like that.
The post-1898 rebarreling/reboring/rechambering would take it out of the antique category. This kind of extensive rebuilding ("remanufacture") makes it into a "modern" gun. It would be a "curio or relic" if the remodeling was done 50 or more years ago.
 
I acquired an old, milsurp 7,62x51 barreled receiver 15-16 years ago.

The left rail is stamped:

MAUSER CHILENO MODELO 1895
MANUFACTURA LOEWE BERLIN

The top of the front ring bears a fancy Chilean crest and the top of the rear ring bears the following hand-stamping (sans serif, btw, XenForo refuses to allow my changing it):

N A T O
1961

I removed the barrel for reshaping and use on a PPSh-41 project.

FWIW ... I do recall inspecting that piece when I first received it and deciding that if I had acquired the complete rifle that there was no way I would ever fire any 7,62x51NATO, much less .308Win, thru it unless I handloaded the ammo to assure low pressure.
 
I would heed what others have said, however if you can find a decent or nice Chilean in original 7mm they can shoot good like many other contract mausers. 2 inch groups or slightly more at 100 yds with factory ammo is what mine averages. Here is mine. I also won't get one unless it has a matching serial on bolt and receiver.

However your questions brings to mind a 1916 Spanish mauser I bought over 10 years ago and after reading on the net the possible dangers it has just sat there. It is a CAI import marked .308 on the barrel. I didn't pay much for it would like to shoot it but I am leery to. My understanding is don't shoot .308 in a 7.62x51 unlike the opposite don't shoot 5.56 in a .223 maybe someone can verify that.

I might just go to a milsurp dealer I know one day and see what he will put toward it to a trade on another Mosin or Enfield if it is indeed questionable to shoot.
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Regarding your Spanish .308/7.62, there are a bunch of THR threads that deal with the issue. One, is whether these were fired with only a cartridge called the 7.62 CETME which was used in the earliest versions of the Spanish CETME rifle (they could not handle full bore 7.62 NATO). I would not be surprised if that was so or not. From at least a Guardia manual dated 1968, they did fire these with 7.62 NATO (the Guardia is combination police and national guard in Spain).

Like the 1895, the 1893 dated from a time where steel technology was fairly new and while outside craftsmanship was high due to the cheap price of labor, mass steel production techniques was not fully mature. The Mausers used the simplest form, carbon steel, because of its advantages in machining, cost, greatest knowledge circa 1890's about the metallurgy for heat treatment, and to give the requisite toughness to the steel for longevity. Nickel steel was just beginning to be used in U.S. commercial firearms at the time but militaries throughout the world are notorious penny pinchers and conservative regarding new fangled inventions.

Mauser refined his work from the 1889 and 91 versions, the 93-96 versions, and then his masterpiece m98. We see consistently better gas handling for example in the 98 compared with the earlier 89-96 versions, the 98 is a stronger design, and is easier to disassemble the bolt for cleaning and so forth. Nevertheless, the design is case hardened steel--the receiver would be machined while still soft (to save wear on machine tools) and then case hardened (heat treated) through being exposed to a carbon source at high temperatures for a set time in a furnace. The carbon impregnated the surface giving these rifles the hard glossy finish and slick feeling when handling the bolt.

But, it is possible to go to far, if the temperature range is not correct for case hardening or the duration of heat treatment was off, (or some impurities in the steel can also do it) you could either get burnt steel (coarse and weak due to its crystalline structure) https://www.scribd.com/document/164168730/Overheated-and-Burnt-Steel, insufficient case hardening--softer than spec steel, or brittle steel (very strong but the receiver is hardened all the way through and these can shatter like glass due to sudden impact). For a laymen's purposes, this article describes some of the processes involved, http://www.anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/FAQs/heattreating.htm

Not as well publicized as low numbered Springfields, but there are accounts of Mauser receivers going kaboom just from problems of heat treatment. For that reason, proof testing was used to weed out the bad ones but the proof testing was based off of the lower pressures of the original ammo (depending on the country and cartridge around 40-45 k psi) and then ". . . the Gunmakers will take the mean service pressure specified for a particular cartridge, and add an additional 25% on top of that. Within the ballistics calculations, they come up with exactly how much extra powder is required to produce 25% more pressure."
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/08/29/show-proof/

Thus, proof loads for these early Mausers ranged to around 50,000 to 56-57,000 psi. Later, as machine gun ammo became hotter and the technology better, the issued ammo pressures for later cartridges went up to the higher end of 45000-50000 psi with a corresponding increase in proof loads. But being the notorious cheap skates that most militaries are due to budget pressures, they kept the older rifles for purposes like "war reserve" etc.

Now, compare this to 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester specs and make your decision. One fly in the ointment is that the Military chambers often have a longer throat and larger chambers as in the 5.56 in order to lessen pressures, ease extraction, and allow firing ammo in less than factory new condition. Unless you do a chamber cast, you really will not know what kind of throat you have. Another issue on many of those 7.62 Spanish Mauser conversions is that they wiped out the arsenal information so you do not know when and who made it. Some Spanish Mausers made during the Civil War are notably inferior for example in quality and obviously early Spanish ones are more likely to demonstrate varying quality as well as the processes were not quite refined yet.

A Spanish Mauser probably won't fail catastrophically absent a large scale gas event or an overloaded cartridge but what you will see with repeated firings is gradual lug setback in the receiver (headspace gets longer, extraction becomes difficult, bolt becomes hard to manipulate, short brass life, etc.) Personally, if I did fire one, I would use only once fired cases of a known origin with the loads well below the max. Using cast boolits would also help do so. In the weaker U.S. 7x57 factory ammo, I have few qualms other than obviously paying attention to safety equipment and how the rifle is performing. These are not the rifles you want to use for high round counts.
 
I do not consider those chamber sleeved Chile peppers to be safe. If you gave me one (why?) and if I were an accomplished DIY gunsmith (I'm not) it would be an interesting project gun to return to 7mm or other mild cartridge like the .257 Roberts.
There was an old gunzine story about sleeved chambers. Somebody started with an obscure European 9mm and bushed the chamber for .35 Remington, making appropriate adjustments to the extractor. Unfortunately the end of the sleeve did not match the end of the bored out chamber and a considerable annular gap remained. After a few rounds the barrel ruptured, destroying one of those work of art ribbed barrels.

If you gave me a sound Spanish conversion where they used new barrels (why?) and if I were a careful handloader (I am) I would shoot it with .308 starting loads which give .300 Savage ballistics at 7mm or lower chamber pressure.

Contrary to Prior Internet Expertise, the .308 Winchester is not loaded appreciably "hotter" than 7.62 NATO. The confusion arose because the US Army is not a member of SAAMI and did not adopt the term "CUP" for readings from a crusher gauge. They just kept posting crusher gauge results in pounds per square inch based on the dead load or hydraulic calibration of crusher slugs until they went to piezoelectric transducers.
If you still think .308 is loaded to 20% higher pressure than 7.62, try to explain why .308 velocity is not substantially higher.
 
Thanks guys you are awesome for the info and expertise , regarding my Spanish Mauser according to Boom Boom's last paragraph seems that shooting it at least not much is not recommended , so why take the chance of getting hurt. One day just gonna put it toward in trade to another Mosin or Enfield when I see the mil-surp guy I know at the next gun show.

BTW I am on the look out for a excellent condition Chilean 1935 carbine. It is one of the last contract Mausers I'd like to get , well maybe a 1912 Steyr also. Well maybe a nice Peruvian also lol, I don't have any Peruvian yet. Dang contract Mausers are addicting.......Gotta have matching bolt to receiver serial though.
 
Thanks guys you are awesome for the info and expertise , regarding my Spanish Mauser according to Boom Boom's last paragraph seems that shooting it at least not much is not recommended , so why take the chance of getting hurt. One day just gonna put it toward in trade to another Mosin or Enfield when I see the mil-surp guy I know at the next gun show.

Not trying to scare you off firing it. Just avoid factory ammo and definitely any surplus stuff floating around. If you reload for it and keep your loads modest at around 7x57 pressure levels for old guns like Jim Watson said above, it would be okay absent things like headspace issues, badly fouled barrel, or a rusty bore, etc. He is an authority on such matters and his opinion can be trusted along with the late RCModel's on most things that go bang.

Cast boolits/coated bullets/plated bullets are another option that significantly lower the pressure levels on these but do allow some shooting, even hunting if that is your thing. The folks at the CastBoolit forum have done extensive load developments for old military surplus rifles in their military surplus subforum as until very recently because of Prvi, cast was about the only way to shoot some oddball rounds such as the Carcano, the m95 Steyr, the 1903 Schonauer Mannlicher, etc.

The major issue with these old Spanish Mausers is that everyone supporting making sporters of them cite an old White Laboratory test of a few receivers to allege great strength in these rifles by testing them to destruction. However, the usual scenario is that lug setback occurs over time depending on the load used and keeps getting worse until things like cartridge separations occur or the bolt becomes about impossible to open due to deformation. If you follow this route, make darn sure to have headspace gages and check using a dental mirror for lug setback. Any bad signs on brass or hard bolt opening, send it to a gunsmith for evaluation.

To answer Jim's question why Spain did that well, at the time these were done, Spain had high hopes of joining NATO (which eventually happened) but that required meeting NATO common goals such as common ammo. Thus, Spain dropped the old 7x57 and the later 8x57 in their 1943 models and converted old 93 Mausers, the 1943's etc. for training to the new standard 7.62 NATO. Many of these were used by the paramilitary Guardia as explained above while the regular military got the good stuff (the Cetme and the FR8 conversions). Not sure who got the FR7 conversions made out of the 93 receivers but keep one as a collector's piece if you find one. The FR8's are fine to shoot as are the 43 Mausers.

The whole CETME round is a different kettle of fish and was definitely used in the early CETME's and perhaps in the FR7's and FR8's for training purposes and people still are arguing over how much was produced, how it was used, etc.

That being said, I have a receiver that I am rebuilding into a Spanish 1916 7x57 rifle just because. The metal on these is soft and many of these receivers are badly pitted under the stock line which you can't tell without removing the stock. Pitting creates the risk, if deep enough, to create a weak spot in the receiver--on the tang, not much of an issue, sidewall, enough to be concerned if cut also for stripper clips, on the receiver ring--bad news. Thus, combine a pitted receiver, a bit overpressure load (maybe it is hot outside (increases pressures) or it is older deteriorated milsurp ammo), and a firearm that has lug setback, then a gas event could cause a kaboom. Too much headspace, cartridge separation and hot gas back at the shooter. And so forth.

I get a kick out of firing old firearms but low pressure is the key for safety as it lessens the energy if something bad happens, plus detailed inspections, periodic checking of brass condition, etc. that can give warning about something bad about to happen. I'm pretty knowledgeable about old firearms but I have a gunsmith family experienced in old firearms including muzzleloaders locally that can check out my new restorations and testfire them safely if I have a doubt.

Thus, if in doubt, have a gunsmith check it out professionally as that is far cheaper than any copayment for surgery and hospital stay.

There Lionking, sorry about the lengthy discussion but these are things that I have learned over the years and that you might find helpful (or some other person who comes across this thread on the internets).
 
I bought a M98 Chilean Mauser "in the white," chambered in .308 back in the mid-nineties. I've run about a thousand rounds through it. Mil surplus and reloads without any problems. Mine is a Styer....one of the slickest bolt actions I've ever had. It's to my understanding, the Chilean military had them re-barreled in 1961 as training rifles....and be NATO compliant. They were then mothballed. I don't know this for a fact, but I've heard it from multiple resources. The best $90.00 I ever spent.
 
Phenomenal actions. The 1912 Steyr steel has a really high nickel content.
Have built a bunch of really nice rifles on them.
 
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