Antique & Restoration rant

[madcratebuilder]

I'm using a electroless nickle kit from Crasswell. It deposits .001 of nickle per hour and you typically need a finish .001 thick for good results. Electroplating adds several thousandth to the surface and can be a problem on close fitting parts.


Ratdog, nice looking IJ, too nice to refinish I think, love those grips.

 

[Old Fuff]

It depends:

If the old nickel plate has been removed you may actually end up with some play between parts you don't want. If the new plating is on top of the old there is a possibility that somewhere it may be too tight. Wear may make everything equal, but I've learned to not depend on that. :banghead:

 

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog68:

All of these various top-break pocket revolvers were inexpensive copies of a very popular Smith & Wesson design, and came about after the S&W patents ran out. Because they were a copy of Smith & Wesson's products, those made in .38 caliber were chambered to use the .38 S&W or .38 Colt New Police cartridges - not the .38 Short Colt, which would probably work but be undersized for the chambers. You need to get your F&W checked out to see what it is really chambered for.

Also it is unquestionably intended to be used with black powder.

To Add: Now I see the cartridges you have are .38 Colt New Police (New Police is in small print) and not .38 Short Colt. Be aware that Remington dropped the .38 Colt New Police during the 1950's because the demand was small, and they were identical to the .38 S&W. That's some very old stuff you have there.

The shells in the pic came with the gun... I'm certain of them being black powder charged old timers. I have nearly a full box of 'em.

Yes, I am aware of the fact that this is a "copy" of the S&W (by F&W). I did a little snoopin' 'round to find the history of this maker. Inktristink tale I stumbled across somewhere... think I've already posted the link for it elsewhere.

 

[Ratdog68]

I am refering to hand tuned guns, not stadnard production stuff as far as tollerences go . But your right too , some , not many of the older nicer guns were built real well too .
My custom Springfield Longslide doesn't get any tighter as far as tollerneces go .

Das Jaeger

Congrats on your new gun Tomahawk674 , awsome ! Let the games begin, should be one fun project for ya , and for us to watch you , bonus !

Nice gun Ratface68 , very cool, shoot it , shoot the hell out of it, what are you waitin for ? Do you doubt your good work ? Or just not to put wear on her ?

I wanna have someone who's got a little more know's its than me to eyeball it before it gets shot... just haven't done so yet. If it's safe to shoot, then I'm ok with shooting the rounds I have for it and reloading them with black powder once again.

 

[Ratdog68]

I'm using a electroless nickle kit from Crasswell. It deposits .001 of nickle per hour and you typically need a finish .001 thick for good results. Electroplating adds several thousandth to the surface and can be a problem on close fitting parts.


Ratdog, nice looking IJ, too nice to refinish I think, love those grips.

Mine's actually an F&W, not an IJ. I don't have any plans to refinish mine... just interested in the thread to do so on these old type of double actions puppies.

 

[theotherwaldo]

The only tricky part to putting that old I-J back together (besides NOT peening the pins) is using a short slave pin to hold the sear in place until the pin is driven in. I usually use a piece of drafting pencil lead for this. Just use the right diameter lead, and rub the end on sandpaper until it's the right length.

The rest of the assembly is plain vanilla.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Are the pins so weak that if I use anything but a cup tip punch the pins will bend? there are plenty of gunsmith brass punches on ebay but they seem to be flat heads, are those not good?

The Smith and Wesson ones on Brownshells are quite expensive.

 

[theotherwaldo]

The pins aren't weak but they are a little soft compared to modern steel. The punches also tend to wander off of the pin and scar up the gun if they aren't cupped. If you flatten the ends of the pins by smacking them hard with a flat-ended tool it just makes it harder to take apart and put together.

I have made my own cup-tip punches by putting a small burr in my cheap Chinese drill press and using it on the end of a bit of rod stock. No big deal.

 

[kwetu]

The following extract will enable you to tell whether it's an IJ 2nd model - Black Powder ONLY, or an IJ 3rd model which was made for Smokeless Powder. The word 'Safety' refers to the fact that the IJ revolvers had a safety transfer bar (Ruger copied them), and the 'Automatic' refers to the automated extraction system.

"In the standard Safety Automatic revolvers with the traditional exposed hammer, the First Model was made from 1894 through 1895 and is identified by it’s single post latch system. The Second Model was made from 1896 to 1908, and the Third Model was made from 1909 to 1941. Both Second and Third Models have the double post latch system. Quick visual clues that identify a Third Model include a longer rear sight on top of the latch and the owl head on the grips is looking directly at you , rather than towards the muzzle end of the barrel as was the case on the Second Model. The Third Model changes were intended to accommodate the higher pressure of smokeless powder loads."
kwetu

 

[Old Fuff]

Ratdog68:

The shells in the pic came with the gun... I'm certain of them being black powder charged old timers. I have nearly a full box of 'em.

I think you'll find they are loaded with smokeless. The box itself dates from the 1930's through the 1950' or early 60's. Look on the bottom of the box and it should say, including a warning about using them in older guns.

 

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog68:



I think you'll find they are loaded with smokeless. The box itself dates from the 1930's through the 1950' or early 60's. Look on the bottom of the box and it should say, including a warning about using them in older guns.

I'll give it an eyeball again. If they are smokeless... I've got a bullet puller and can reload 'em with some black powder... hmmmm... would I be able to use my .38 spl. dies for loading these up? I'd be sure to take some overall measurements before pulling the bullets. Prob'ly 10-15grs of black powder would be about right for these little puppies?

 

[Old Fuff]

Kleenbore primers = non-corrosive compound and therefore smokeless powder loads.

.38 Special dies won't work - or at least they shouldn't. You can get .38 S&W dies, or a Lee hand tool would be an low cost option too.

As with a cap & ball revolver, you don't want to leave an air space between the powder charge and bullet's base. Modern solid head cases have less space for powder, but I'm not sure if what you have are solid head cases. Correct bullet weight is 146 grains, and the correct diameter is .360" The case is so short I don't think you can use too much black powder.

 

[Ratdog68]

Kleenbore primers = non-corrosive compound and therefore smokeless powder loads.

.38 Special dies won't work - or at least they shouldn't. You can get .38 S&W dies, or a Lee hand tool would be an low cost option too.

As with a cap & ball revolver, you don't want to leave an air space between the powder charge and bullet's base. Modern solid head cases have less space for powder, but I'm not sure if what you have are solid head cases. Correct bullet weight is 146 grains, and the correct diameter is .360" The case is so short I don't think you can use too much black powder.

Thanks for that Old Fuff... I'll look into some .38 S&W dies. I've got a number of Lee loading dies already for a number of my calibers. 10-4 on the "no air 'tween powder/bullet base.

 

[BHP FAN]

I load my .38 S&W'S with 16 gr 3f goex.

 

[Ratdog68]

I load my .38 S&W'S with 16 gr 3f goex.

Smoochies Grassy-Ass Ameeeego !

 

[Old Fuff]

I hate to tell you this because it might upset your mental stability...

But there was a time when Remington loaded what they called a "Gallery Load" in several popular cartridges. In .38 S&W it consisted of a mild charge of 3f black, a lubricated felt wad, and a .360" round ball...

Loading dies aren't necessary if you lightly pinch the case at the mouth. I have seen an ordinary pair of pliers modified to do this.

I sure hope all of this doesn't give you any bad ideas...

 

[Ratdog68]

LOL That's kewl to know... but, I'm in no hurry to shoot this one and would be more than willing to just buy the dies for the .38 S&W.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Hey guys, I got the Iver in the mail today. It looks really nice, virtually no pitting or rust, mechanically sound (missing the mainspring) and overall very nice condition.

I have a question, how do I take the ejector out of the cylinder?

 

[Old Fuff]

1. Put two or three fired cases in the chambers. You can use loaded rounds, but fired cases are safer.

2. Wrap a piece of leather or cardboard around the ejector rod (called a "stem"), and clamp it in a vise. Be careful to not bend or scar the rod.

3. While standing behind the cylinder, turn it counter-clockwise; and the rod will unscrew.

4. Remove the extractor spring and then back out the extractor.


DON'T USE FORCE! If it doesn't want to turn, soak the whole cylinder in an anti-rust solvent for a few days and then try again.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Thanks for the info Fluff;

I was able to take down the gun to it's last pin. I am amazed at how well it has stayed. Nothing was rust-locked, or heavily pitted. I was able to take the rust off al the parts, then I oiled it and put it somewhat back together before I decide how the plating is going to go down.

Question: In this model and plenty other iver johnson oldies the trigger guard looks darker than the rest of the frame. It doesn't quite look like it was blued, so what is it? I need to know what's done differently there as to not alter the appearance when renickeling.

---- edit---

Looking at more pics, it DOES seem like they blued their trigger guards, can anyone confirm?

 

[kwetu]

They were blued by the factory but seem to develop a brown patina. Looking at my IJ one can just see the remains of bluing.

 

[bigbadgun]

I just got my hands on and old Iver Johnson 16 gauge single shot shotgun that Im going to do a complete restore to. And the only reason I am going to restore it is because even in really good shape they are not worth a bunch so I am gonna turn it in to a nice piece.

 

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson's standard finish on top-break/pocket model revolvers was either full blue. or nickel plate with a blued trigger guard and barrel latch. Hammers and triggers were color casehardened. Stocks were usually molded black hard rubber.

The companies that made copies (H&R, Iver Johnson, Forehand & Wadsworth, etc) did the same. Nickeled trigger guards and lockwork are a strong indicator of a later refinish.

Before you refinish a trigger guard, consider they were blued with a "charcoal blue" process that you can't duplicate.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Thank you guys again for the information.

Well, the trigger guard and top latch are brown, all the bluing is gone. I don't think I'll nickel them but I may try cold bluing, even if it's not authentic.

So far there's two springs I need, the mainspring (flat kind) and the firing pin spring. Both are listed at e-gun parts but both are out of stock. And the guy from Bob's gun parts seems to have plenty of IJ parts but he is away from the shop till about Sep 12th.

Let me know if you guys know of any alternative parts source, googleing yields no results.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Oh and... I would appreciate any tips on removing the firing pin nut (the little housing the pin is in) and the cylinder arbor (if it's not too difficult, as I'm having doubts if I should plate with the arber attached to the barrel or not).