Any Dealers with SOT Experience Here?

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Olympus

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I'm debating on paying the SOT and becoming an 01/03 SOT, mainly to sell suppressors. Can anyone with experience as an SOT dealer give me some insight into the process? I'm trying to determine if it's worth the time, cost, and trouble. Also trying to learn how the whole process works.
 
I was an 02/07 SOT before they started enforcing ITAR. Pretty much the same thing though . Not that big of a deal really. Just like having a standard FFL. If you are going to be working out of your home you'll need a business license and be zoned for it. Other than that keep your books up to date and your paperwork in order and the ATF doesnt bother you much. ts really not a time and expense thing. The license upgrade will pay for itself with a few transfers and the time is minimal to fill out a few forms.

Are you going to be keeping stock on hand or just acting as a transferring Class 3 dealer?
 
Olympus I'm debating on paying the SOT and becoming an 01/03 SOT, mainly to sell suppressors. Can anyone with experience as an SOT dealer give me some insight into the process? I'm trying to determine if it's worth the time, cost, and trouble. Also trying to learn how the whole process works.

Every time an NFA firearm is transferred, ATF approval is required.
On a new silencer, the manufacturer or distributor will transfer it tax free on an ATF Form 3 to the FFL/SOT.

When it arrives, you log it in your bound book (I recommend a dedicated NFA book)....just like any other firearm.

When a customer decides to buy, you'll complete an ATF Form 4 to transfer to the customer. I prefer to complete my portion of the Form 4 and give it to the customer to complete his part. The customer then mails the Form 4 to ATF with the $200 tax payment. (some dealers prefer to collect the $200 from the customer and mail it themselves)

When ATF approves the Form 4, they will mail a copy to the FFL/SOT with a cancelled tax stamp attached. I make a copy for myself and attach to the 4473 that the customer will fill out..........and all he does is fill it out. No NICS check is required for NFA firearms.

Most dealers will require either a hefty deposit or full payment before handing over the Form 4 to the customer.
 
I'm already an 01 FFL, just thinking of adding the SOT. I'm a sole proprietor, so I was reading that I would have to obtain an EIN from the IRS before I could obtain the SOT. I currently just include my business records with my personal taxes at the end of the year and I'm able to do my taxes myself. Will the addition of the EIN complicate my taxes to the point of needing to use an accountant?
 
I was an 02/07 SOT before they started enforcing ITAR.
A long time ago I asked about something I'd been told by a naughty manufacturer about ITAR enforcement and even though I took a sceptical tone in the post about what the SOT told me, I got spanked by Frank. I guess that was for not making it totally explicit that he was a naughty naughty SOT.

However in the meanwhile, I've been told the same thing by several more naughty manufacturers, some names that would surprise you, one who said it came straight from the ATF agent that approved his SOT.

So I still wonder what the true story is about ITAR enforcement in the real world . . .

Mike

PS. They are naughty.
 
The ITAR is required for 02/07's but its required by the state dept and the ATF is real spotty about whether they will tell you its required or not. They don't care for the most part or at least when I had my license they didnt seem to care all that much. Its one of those unfunded mandate intergovernmental pi__ing match things .
 
Olympus I'm already an 01 FFL, just thinking of adding the SOT. I'm a sole proprietor, so I was reading that I would have to obtain an EIN from the IRS before I could obtain the SOT. I currently just include my business records with my personal taxes at the end of the year and I'm able to do my taxes myself. Will the addition of the EIN complicate my taxes to the point of needing to use an accountant?
No.
TurboTax has no problem with it.:D
 
Arizona_Mike Quote:
Originally Posted by yugorpk View Post
I was an 02/07 SOT before they started enforcing ITAR.

A long time ago I asked about something I'd been told by a naughty manufacturer about ITAR enforcement and even though I took a sceptical tone in the post about what the SOT told me, I got spanked by Frank. I guess that was for not making it totally explicit that he was a naughty naughty SOT.

However in the meanwhile, I've been told the same thing by several more naughty manufacturers, some names that would surprise you, one who said it came straight from the ATF agent that approved his SOT.

So I still wonder what the true story is about ITAR enforcement in the real world . . .

ITAR is a requirement for manufacturers, enforced by the State Department.
ATF requires manufacturers to be licensed as 07FFL's.

The definition of "manufacturing" is different between the two.

Many 07FFL's have paid ITAR when they didn't need to.
 
Thats not what the ATF says...

https://www.atf.gov/file/56466/download

Page 3...

"Generally, persons holding a manufacturers license ( type 06, 07, or 10 ) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless specifically exempted by DDTC. "

From the DDTC...

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9cc5df41a180750a&node=22:1.0.1.13.59&rgn=div5

"§122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register. (See part 129 of this subchapter for requirements for registration of persons who engage in brokering activities.)

(b) Exemptions. The registration requirements of paragraph (a) of this section do not apply to:

(1) Officers and employees of the U.S. Government acting in an official capacity;

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the production of unclassified technical data only;

(3) Persons all of whose manufacturing and export activities are licensed under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended; or

(4) Persons who engage in the fabrication of articles solely for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

Note to paragraph (b): Persons who qualify for the exemptions in paragraphs (b)(2) or (b)(4) of this section remain subject to the requirements for licenses or other approvals for exports of defense articles and defense services and may not receive an export license or approval unless registered under §122.2.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter, unless an exception is granted by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

[78 FR 52686, Aug. 26, 2013]"
 
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yugorpk Thats not what the ATF says...

https://www.atf.gov/file/56466/download

Page 3...

"Generally, persons holding a manufacturers license ( type 06, 07, or 10 ) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless specifically exempted by DDTC. "
Hogwash.......ATF doesn't disagree with me AT ALL, because ATF doesn't get to decide what is "manufacturing" as defined by the State Department.;)

If you were still an FFL you would have access to the dealer forum where you could see the DDDTC letter that agrees with me (or you could spend a few minutes and actually research how the State Department defines manufacturing.;)

I would post the letter, but the 07FFL it is addressed to has requested that it not be redistributed. If you REALLY want to see it, ask an FFL friend to register on FFLsOnly.com and do a search for DDTC ITAR RESPONSE (EXEMPT 07 ACTIVITIES)

And you'll note the use of the term "Generally" in that FFL Newsletter article. Generally, the term Generally" means Generally...........as in not always.:rolleyes:
An example:
An 07FFL makes sporting shotguns.......not on the ITAR list and therefore does not require ITAR registration.;)


Another example: (and the one where many ATF employees get wrong)
A licensee desires to assemble AR rifles. He wants to take lowers manufactured by someone else (Aero Precision, Anderson, Palmetto, etc) and assemble a complete rifle by adding a barreled upper and shoulder stock. ATF defines this as "manufacturing".......which requires an 07FFL.

The State Department only considers this "assembly" of drop in parts manufactured by someone else........and doesn't require ITAR registration for that 07FFL. They would require ITAR registration for the company who actually manufactured those AR lower receivers.
 
I'm just posting the laws and what my inspector told me on his way through my books. In my case I had a few form 2 machine guns built on premises and had never sold one on a form 3. No LE letters because those are NOT required when form 2'ing a MG unless its going out the door on a form 3. None of that was an issue. What was an issue was the ITAR. The examiner claimed, emphatically, that I needed to register with ITAR to keep my license. I have never seen anything in the US code to contradict his claim. Lots of 02/07's who claim they are exempt because they don't export but the state dept wording is pretty clear on the subject. If you have other info you'd like to share please do . You are right though. The state dept list of applicable munitions does not include sporting shotguns. The State Dept Category 1 list is pretty extensive though. I know this doesnt have a lot to do with the OP's question. I was an 02/07 SOT and the rules are different for plain dealers and I don't think the ATF gives a damn about type 7 FFL's without the Class 02 bump.


http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf


"(a) The following articles, services
and related technical data are designated
as defense articles and defense
services pursuant to §§38 and 47(7) of
the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C.
2778 and 2794(7)). Changes in designations
will be published in the FEDERAL
REGISTER. Information and clarifications
on whether specific items are defense
articles and services under this
subchapter may appear periodically
through the Internet Web site of the
Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.
(b) Significant military equipment: An
asterisk precedes certain defense articles
in the following list. The asterisk
means that the article is deemed to be
‘‘Significant Military Equipment’’ to
the extent specified in §120.7 of this
subchapter. The asterisk is placed as a
convenience to help identify such articles.
Note that technical data directly
related to the manufacture or production
of any defense articles enumerated
in any category that are designated as
Significant Military Equipment (SME)
shall itself be designed SME.
(c) Missile Technology Control Regime
Annex (MTCR). Certain defense articles
and services are identified in §121.16 as
being on the list of MTCR Annex items
on the United States Munitions List.
These are articles as specified in §120.29
of this subchapter and appear on the
list at §121.16.
CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT
WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS
*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber
inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency,
close assault
weapons systems) having a special military
application regardless of caliber.
*(d) Combat shotguns. This includes any
shotgun with a barrel length less than 18
inches.
*(e) Silencers, mufflers, sound and flash
suppressors for the articles in (a) through (d)
of this category and their specifically designed,
modified or adapted components and
parts.
(f) Riflescopes manufactured to military
specifications (See category XII(c) for controls
on night sighting devices.)
*(g) Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames)
or complete breech mechanisms for the articles
in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category.

(h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments
for the articles in paragraphs (a)
through (g) of this category.
(i) Technical data (as defined in §120.10 of
this subchapter) and defense services (as defined
in §120.9 of this subchapter) directly related
to the defense articles enumerated in
paragraphs (a) through (h) of this category.
Technical data directly related to the manufacture
or production of any defense articles
enumerated elsewhere in this category that
are designated as Significant Military Equipment
(SME) shall itself be designated SME.
(j) The following interpretations explain
and amplify the terms used in this category
and throughout this subchapter:
(1) A firearm is a weapon not over .50 caliber
(12.7 mm) which is designed to expel a
projectile by the action of an explosive or
which may be readily converted to do so.
(2) A rifle is a shoulder firearm which can
discharge a bullet through a rifled barrel 16
inches or longer.
(3) A carbine is a lightweight shoulder firearm
with a barrel under 16 inches in length.
(4) A pistol is a hand-operated firearm having
a chamber integral with or permanently
aligned with the bore.
(5) A revolver is a hand-operated firearm
with a revolving cylinder containing chambers
for individual cartridges.
(6) A submachine gun, ‘‘machine pistol’’ or
‘‘machine gun’’ is a firearm originally designed
to fire, or capable of being fired, fully
automatically by a single pull of the trigger.
NOTE: This coverage by the U.S. Munitions
List in paragraphs (a) through (i) of this category
excludes any non-combat shotgun with
a barrel length of 18 inches or longer, BB,
pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder)
firearms. This category does not cover
riflescopes and sighting devices that are not
manufactured to military specifications. It
also excludes accessories and attachments
(e.g., belts, slings, after market rubber grips,
cleaning kits) for firearms that do not enhance
the usefulness, effectiveness, or capabilities
of the firearm, components and
parts. The Department of Commerce regulates
the export of such items. See the Export
Administration Regulations (15 CFR
parts 730–799). In addition, license exemptions
for the items in this category are available
in various parts of this subchapter (e.g.
§§123.17, 123.18 and 125.4)."
 
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yugorpk I'm just posting the laws and what my inspector told me on his way through my books.
And ATF IOI's are always right?:rolleyes:



I have never seen anything in the US code to contradict his claim. Lots of 02/07's who claim they are exempt because they don't export but the state dept wording is pretty clear on the subject.
It's not the US Code but a determination letter from the DDTC.



If you have other info you'd like to share please do .
As I posted above, the 07 who requested clarification from DDTC does not want his letter redistributed and I plan to honor that request. He has posted his communication to DDTC as well as the DDTC response to the FFLsOnly.com forum. If any FFL wants to read it they can go there and do so (I gave the thread title above).




You are right though. The state dept list of applicable munitions does not include sporting shotguns.
Which is why ATF says...."Generally".:D
 
Without seeing the secret handshake letter that I am sure applies to everyone, here here is something from "that other place"

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=44&t=352526


"Guys, I sent a email to the DDTC and here is the response -


MY EMAIL:
From: RANDY.WILSON
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:24 AM
To: DDTC Response Team
Subject: Federal Firearms License Question

I am a home based gunsmith who has applied for a Type 7 FFL (Manufacturers License) to do gun repair. They require I have a manufacturers license as I will be changing barrels on rifles. Do I have to pay the ITAR $2250.00 fee to operate? Thanks for your help!



THE RESPONSE:

If ATF issues you a manufactures license, DDTC considers you a manufacturer of defense articles (US Munitions List Category I, Firearms) and requires you to register.

Go to www.pmddtc.state.gov and on the Home Page click on the link to Registration. There you will find the application form and complete instructions for a complete submittal package.
If this is a renewal of registration, please note that renewal is exactly the same as registering for the first time. You must submit a complete package.

Send your documents by courier service (FedEx, DHL, or UPS) to:

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
PM/DDTC, SA-1, 12TH Floor
Attn: Registration
2401 E Street NW
Washington DC 20037


Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, XL
NOTE: Information in this message generally discusses controls and information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on this matter. The Response Team fields basic process and status questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control's licensing and compliance offices. The Response Team's services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion, general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.


This email is UNCLASSIFIED. "
 
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The IOIs are never on the same page. I had one tell ne that I could buy an assembled lower from a distributor and I could build the upper myself and attach to the two and sell as a complete rifle with only my 01 FFL. I've never bothered to test that theory though.
 
The IOIs are never on the same page. I had one tell ne that I could buy an assembled lower from a distributor and I could build the upper myself and attach to the two and sell as a complete rifle with only my 01 FFL. I've never bothered to test that theory though.
Um, uhh yea, that would be wrong, that is manufacturing as per ATF........................strangely I don't for one second doubt your story...


However, were you to sell the lower and take it back in as gunsmithing..... to complete the build, tis a whole nother set of rules, and no an 07 wouldn't be required.
 
yugorpk Without seeing the secret handshake letter that I am sure applies to everyone, here here is something from "that other place"

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.h...&f=44&t=352526


"Guys, I sent a email to the DDTC and here is the response ......

......I am a home based gunsmith who has applied for a Type 7 FFL (Manufacturers License) to do gun repair. They require I have a manufacturers license as I will be changing barrels on rifles.....
Changing barrels MAY be considered a manufacturing activity by DDTC if any machining is involved.....this would be true for an 01FFL doing gunsmithing, since DDTC doesn't care what type FFL you hold, just what activities you are engaged in. As a matter of fact many of the items on the ITAR list are not firearms.;)

And if you note his situation is NOT the same as the example I described above. The example I gave above is only assembly, not machining.

DDTC has newer letters that have superseded this opinion letter.

The OP (Olympus) joined the FFLsOnly.com forum and can see the letter straight from DDTC that confirms what I've written above.

You (yugopk) can choose to believe me or not, I don't really care.
But anyone who is an FFL can view the thread titled DDTC ITAR RESPONSE (EXEMPT 07 ACTIVITIES) it's in the NFA Discussion subforum at https://www.fflsonly.com
 
Letters apply to one person and are easily revoked. I was thinking about starting my license back up. One way to find out. In any case i know what they'dll say. Creating a machinegun involves machining. Thats what an 02/07 does unless he just buys post samples in which case he's not doing 02/07 SOT work anyway. Creating a post samples involves machine work and actual manufacturing of a post sample receiver even if its just drilling a sear hole. Building silencers the same thing. 07 and 02/07 are not the same thing ..

I only want to restart my license for demo work with existing silencers. I have no intentions of selling any post samples so they may even allow it without ITAR. I doubt it though.

Email sent to the DDTC Response Team....


"Dear Sirs,

I would like to start my 02/07 SOT license with the BATF. I have no intention of creating machine-guns or any other title 1 or NFA regulated devices for sale. I will be doing demo work and R&D work with machine guns I build for use in house with existing silencers transferred to me on an ATF form 3 which I will be offering for sale. In addition I will be offering Title 1 transfers in accordance with Washington state law.
Again, I will not be manufacturing anything for sale. I will not be exporting anything nor will I be selling to the military . Do I need to pay ITAR yearly fees.

Sincerely,"

Who's a betting man?
 
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I will not be seeking a manufacturing license nor do I plan to, so it's not applicable to me. I'm only considering adding the 03 SOT to my 01FFL that I already have.
 
And the results from the State Dept. are. ( That was fast ! ) ... As I eat crow...



The registration requirement for the State Department’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) is laid out in Part 122 of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR):

§122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

Please note that the requirements for obtaining Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs) from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) are separate and distinct from the requirement under the ITAR to register with the DDTC. The DDTC’s definition of “manufacturing” is somewhat narrower than the ATF’s, and much of what falls under the rubric of gunsmith activities does not qualify, by our definition, as manufacturing. Gunsmith activities that are not considered manufacturing include: general assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require any cutting, drilling, or machining; firearm repairs involving drop-in replacement parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation; and repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operation of the firearm beyond its original capacity.

Any special tooling or upgrading on your part to improve the capability of an assembled or repaired firearm would constitute manufacturing. Please note that a firearm modification that changes the round capacity of a firearm is considered manufacturing under the ITAR. This does not apply, however, to removable magazines, clips, etc., that are not integrated parts of the firearm. Cosmetic additions that do not enhance the usefulness, effectiveness, or capabilities of the firearm are not considered manufacturing.

The production of any firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors) would constitute manufacture and would entail a legal requirement to register.

The production of ammunition, including the mechanized reloading of ammunition for sale, would require DDTC registration. Hand-loading of ammunition of .50 caliber or less would not require registration.

Production for research and development purposes, with no sales or gifting involved, does not require registration.

If your company is not manufacturing, exporting, or brokering defense articles or services, and restricts its business activities to the domestic sale or resale of firearms to U.S. persons, including firearm assembly and general gunsmith activities (as described above), then you would not be required to register with the DDTC under ITAR Part 122 or 129 (which covers brokering), and you would not be required to pay a fee.


In case of doubt whether or not you are required to register, you may submit a registration advisory opinion request that lays out exactly what you do or intend to do with regard to firearms and ammunition. This request should be sent in hard copy by courier delivery service (FedEx or UPS) to:

U.S. Department of State
Directorate of Defense Trade Controls
Compliance and Registration Division
2401 E Street NW, SA-1, Room H1200
Washington, DC 20037

I hope this is helpful in clarifying your own situation with regard to possible DDTC registration. If you have any follow-on questions, please feel free to contact the Response Team.
Kirk Bennett
DDTC Response Team

Note: Information in this message generally discusses controls and information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on this matter. The Response Team fields basic process and status questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control’s licensing and compliance offices. The Response Team’s services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion, general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.
 
yugorpk ..... I will be doing demo work and R&D work with machine guns I build for use in house...
It is my understanding that ATF no longer allows Form 2 post samples for R&D.

The truly scary part of that response?

The DDTC’s definition of “manufacturing” is somewhat narrower than the ATF’s, and much of what falls under the rubric of gunsmith activities does not qualify, by our definition, as manufacturing. Gunsmith activities that are not considered manufacturing include: general assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require any cutting, drilling, or machining; firearm repairs involving drop-in replacement parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation; and repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operation of the firearm beyond its original capacity.
How many 01FFL Gunsmiths do machining?:uhoh:




The production of any firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors) would constitute manufacture and would entail a legal requirement to register.
How many 01FFL Gunsmiths make their own small parts? :uhoh:
 
It is my understanding that ATF no longer allows Form 2 post samples for R&D.

The truly scary part of that response?


How many 01FFL Gunsmiths do machining?:uhoh:





How many 01FFL Gunsmiths make their own small parts? :uhoh:
Mine would not be for R&D use as much as they would be for demonstration use. "Sales samples" be the term the ATF uses. Post samples. Semantics I know. I havent found anything in the ATF regs restricting demo use as a "sales sample".

Or maybe not.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58221/download

"7.6.2 Manufacture of machineguns solely for purposes of testing. The manufacture of machineguns
solely for testing or research purposes is not recognized as a legitimate exception to the ban on
possession or transfer of firearms under 18 U.S.C. 922(o). As previously stated, manufacturers may
only manufacture machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 and stockpile the same if they are
manufactured and held for sale to Federal or State agencies, for distribution as “sales samples,” or for
exportation. "


In that case to show legitimacy I'd probably have to pay ITAR. It was so much easier 15 years ago...
 
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