Any suspicions about electronic 4473 forms?

[wally]

To be honest, it was more of a pain to do it electronically that just using a paper form.

Yup!
My dealer then "quickly" printed the form and I signed it.

Doing things "electronically" doesn't always make it easier or better in any way that benefits the customer.

I see this as a way to push the cost of printing the forms from the government, to the dealers adding to their cost of doing business.

Depending on who wrote the code and if its open source or not, having spyware built in is always a possibility. Code such as this becomes a target for malware, just think how valuable lists of name, address, and firearm purchased would be to street gangs.

 

[12131]

If you're so paranoid about it, then just buy your stuff privately.

 

[Gaffer]

Having worked in a gun shop a few years I know that ATF does stop by and look at the 4473's from time to time. It is my opinion that the government has more info on most of us than we care to imagine. Heck you can see photos of your home in most of America on Google maps.

That said I know that many on these forums voted for the guy now in charge and IMHO they get what they asked for. It is only going to get worse unless enough rise up and say whoa. I don't see that happening as most are woefully lacking in backbone. As has been said, "we have met the enemy and it is us!"

 

[wally]

If you're so paranoid about it, then just buy your stuff privately.

Which the current "reasonable" gun control proposals are trying to prevent!

 

[Tcruse]

I think that we are off track on this discussion. F4473 is useful to attempt to enforce laws on giving false informaiton for the NICS check, but we all know that ATF does not do much in this area, so, today this is a non-issue. Now, the "Bound Book" is a completly another issue. Each gun that is transfered is entered by model, type, and serial number, with the source and the destination. Most dealers keep this information in a database rather than a physical paper book. The "Inspection Report" provided for ATF inspections is really just a "copy" of the bound book. So, a pdf printed copy of the inspection report is a complete registration for all guns that the FFL ever had. This is the logical choice for createing a federal gun registration. The bound book usually has a "file no" so the the 4473 form can be presented should asked for by ATF inspection agent. The 4473 form and NICS check does not necessarily mean a gun was actually transfered.

 

[alsaqr]

Some Okies believe dealer sold guns are automatically "registered" with the feds. Guys are paying a premium for used "unregistered" guns at estate auctions. One guy paid over $750 for a Plain Jane Remington model 700 in .30-06 with a 40 year old cheap Bushnell scope. All the guns at that auction sold for much more than their real value.

 

[we are not amused]

Some Okies believe dealer sold guns are automatically "registered" with the feds. Guys are paying a premium for used "unregistered" guns at estate auctions. One guy paid over $750 for a Plain Jane Remington model 700 in .30-06 with a 40 year old cheap Bushnell scope. All the guns at that auction sold for much more than their real value.

I havn't bought a gun at an auction for years because of that. I have, in the past, bought some nice guns at a good price, but not for some time.

As far as the electronic form goes, I have no problem with it, I firmly believe that the Government is attempting to create as complete a database as possible of gun owners. It is largely useless, as it will be incomplete and out of date, almost as fast as it is compiled, but that won't stop the antigun bureaucrats from trying.

By the way, this effort will continue no matter how gun friendly the administration is, or what laws are created. The Government bureaucracy is too complex and independent of outside control, too be accountable to Congress or the Administration.

Look at the NSA wiretapping American phones, something that was prohibited by the Patriot Act, but implemented by Obama in 2011, and nobody seems to be able to stop it, and now politicians of both parties are supporting it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Good grief...........the price of aluminum is skyrocketing

Black Butte ....You mean the way our phones don't "connect" with the NSA?

No sir. Only someone completely and totally ignorant of what the E4473 is would imagine that it "connects" in any shape manner or form with the ATF. The E4473 is form filling software only.

You can remove your modem, your phone line and wrap your laptop with Saran Wrap............it doesn't change anything about the E4473 software.

But conspiracies are fun and conspiracy theorists are even funner.

12Pump A red flag went up for me in just reading the second line of their answer to the very first question, where they say, "The objectives of the electronic ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-the-Counter) system are to provide the Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) a “smart” version of the ATF Form 4473"

The E4473 doesn't allow the user to print and sign the form unless all applicable questions are answered.......with the paper 4473 missing info is an everyday occurance.......because people can't read.

We all know what "smart" means in technological terms.

Apparently not.

xwingband ..... Here in Florida they do the background check through the electronic 4473 at Walmart... so it certainly can "connect".

You are confusing the E4473 with something Florida does for background checks..........they are not the same. The 4473 (paper or electronic) is an ATF form, background checks are the domain of the FBI NICS or in your case the FDLE (a state point of contact).

The FBI does have an online NICS Echeck that DOES connect with the FBI database.

AK103K ...The ATF has been going around photocopying the paper forms at the dealers for years.....They can come in and look at them anytime they like if they feel the need.

No sir, they cannot. ATF is limited by Federal law to one compliance inspection per year. Any other visit must be pursuant to a crminal investigation.

shooting .....I work for the feds. We have these "smart" forms in use all over the place. All that means to them is a fillable electronic form that will not allow a "proceed" unless certain parameters are met. "Box 4c filled, or a yes answer on line 2." That kind of thing.

There you go........ruining a perfectly good conspiracy with facts.

BSA1 ......First of all the FBI is required to delete background checks from dealers from their database after 30 days.

Nope, transactions that resulted in a "proceed" are deleted at the end of that NICS business day.....midnight Central time. Transactions that were "delayed" have the information stored until upgraded to a "proceed" (then deleted at the end of the business day). "Denied" transaction information is stored permanantly.

Tcruse ..... the "Bound Book" is a completly another issue. Each gun that is transfered is entered by model, type, and serial number, with the source and the destination. Most dealers keep this information in a database rather than a physical paper book. The "Inspection Report" provided for ATF inspections is really just a "copy" of the bound book. So, a pdf printed copy of the inspection report is a complete registration for all guns that the FFL ever had.

Nope.
The bound book only contains the name of the transferee and the date the firearm was transferred. it is not required that the transferees address, birthdate, race, ethnicity, social security #, etc be entered into the bound book.

....The 4473 form and NICS check does not necessarily mean a gun was actually transfered.

You can't be serious.
That is EXACTLY what the 4473 shows. (see Question 36 on the 4473)
:banghead:

 

[X-Rap]

Nope, transactions that resulted in a "proceed" are deleted at the end of that NICS business day.....midnight Central time. Transactions that were "delayed" have the information stored until upgraded to a "proceed" (then deleted at the end of the business day). "Denied" transaction information is stored permanantly.

Do you really believe that information is lost and gone forever?

Nope.
The bound book only contains the name of the transferee and the date the firearm was transferred. it is not required that the transferees address, birthdate, race, ethnicity, social security #, etc be entered into the bound book.

There is no firearm information in the bound book?

I don't believe there is a single thing that we put into these things (computers) that is safe from people who want the information. I don't think e4473's are our biggest worry but they are just more things that are reported to make our lives easier and better but don't.

 

[AK103K]

No sir, they cannot. ATF is limited by Federal law to one compliance inspection per year. Any other visit must be pursuant to a crminal investigation.

Yes sir they can, and have. Ive personally seen them doing the copying in one shop where a couple of my buddies worked. It was a pretty big deal at the time. They came in like it was a raid, and were there for quite awhile, days actually.

That store wasnt being singled out either, I was also friendly with owners of a couple of the other local shops at the time, and they too said they were visited and had their 4473's copied. Other shops reported the same thing as well.

At the time, it was the ATF's first implementation of their "Operation Forward Trace". Do a Google search on that term, theres lots of reading.

 

[BSA1]

NCIS Call Center is Located in Plano, Texas!!!

Nope, transactions that resulted in a "proceed" are deleted at the end of that NICS business day.....midnight Central time. Transactions that were "delayed" have the information stored until upgraded to a "proceed" (then deleted at the end of the business day). "Denied" transaction information is stored permanantly

dogtown tom,

Thank you for correcting me on the time limit when NCIS checks are deleted from there computers. Since you are knowledgeable about the NCIS System would you mind answering a few questions for me;

When you say deleted at the end of the day exactly what computer(s) systems have this information removed from? IT geeks tell me it is complicated totally delete information stored in computers.

Are there are regulations that prevents the sharing of information with other Government agencies and, if so, what safeguards are in place to keep this from happening?

Since NCIS approved purchased are deleted at the end of the day what is the purpose of the confirmation number given to the dealer to record on the 4473? I mean if the transaction is being truly deleted from the computer at the end of the day then the confirmation number is worthless as there is no record of the purchasers name, d.o.b. and Social Security number and the name of the dealer doing the transaction right?

Since approved transactions are deleted how can anyone said the gun was legally purchased? The dealer can just make up a code unless the Government has a record of the transaction which you said they delete?

 

[jakk280rem]

My cousin owns a gun shop about 20 minutes from me. I haven't been in another shop since he moved it from the coast. I get the family discount and it is rough on the wallet. For the last two years or so he has been submitting form 4473 to the OSP for approval. I have purchased multiple firearms on an e4473 and have no compunctions about doing it again. He also takes a laptop to shows with him to speed up the process.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Does anyone else find it amusing that some have a problem with filling out an electronic 4473 because they think the government can somehow tap into a form filling on program, yet they get on THR and talk about all their guns.

 

[12Pump]

Does anyone else find it amusing that some have a problem with filling out an electronic 4473 because they think the government can somehow tap into a form filling on program, yet they get on THR and talk about all their guns.

Not really. A forum doesn't require us to give out our real name or what we own, doesn't report directly to an abusive gov agency, and doesn't have a record of wanting (repeatedly) to register and confiscate something we have a constitutional right to. I'm aware that anyone can read the forum and that IP addresses can be tracked, but there are safeguard we can use for those things too. There is no safeguard to filling out forms that the abusive agency can then go to shops, collect them to copy against the law, and then go back to Washington with the info.

When those forms are electronic, then they are 100 times easier to search through than if they were only on paper.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

A forum doesn't require us to give out our real name or what we own

And you don't think a gov agency could get on here and find out exactly who you were in very short order? Hell, there's probably members on here who could.
I just noticed you acknowledged that about the IP address. I'm just saying that its just as easy for them. If you're so paranoid that you won't fill out an electronic 4473, I'm just surprised that you'll go on the interweb and admit to owning any firearms. That's all.

 

[12Pump]

And you don't think a gov agency could get on here and find out exactly who you were in very short order? Hell, there's probably members on here who could.

Perhaps, but it would take some work. I know I couldn't do it. But what's easier for the gov to use: A forum username and whatever info I decide to put into my profile, along with an IP that may or may not be my own, or could be a public library computer, or the one at McDonalds. OR would it be easier for them to use a form that has your real name, address, etc. on it?

I just took a look at your profile information. Is any of it true and accurate? If I were doing an investigation of you, I wouldn't use that info at all, because I know most people don't want to reveal too much about themselves on forums like this. My guess is that you don't actually live in Arkansas. I certainly wouldn't rely on that idea.

Here's an open challenge to any member (or gov agent) here: Tell me exactly what my name is and what my address is and what guns I own. Do it by PM if you don't mind. Then I'll come back here and eat my virtual hat!

 

[dogtown tom]

BSA1 NCIS Call Center is Located in Plano, Texas!!!

Nope, just a guy who can read.

YOU could start here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/nics-overview

....Thank you for correcting me on the time limit when NCIS checks are deleted from there computers. Since you are knowledgeable about the NCIS System would you mind answering a few questions for me;

When you say deleted at the end of the day exactly what computer(s) systems have this information removed from? IT geeks tell me it is complicated totally delete information stored in computers.

Seriously? I'm a freaking gun dealer, not an IT guy. Federal law says the FBI cannot store the info beyond the end of their business day, if you think otherwise take it up with the FBI IT guys.

Are there are regulations that prevents the sharing of information with other Government agencies and, if so, what safeguards are in place to keep this from happening?

It works the other way.....different state and federal databases are accessable by the FBI NICS. For example, every transaction with a Permanent Resident or non immigrant alien requires the FBI to contact INS to check on that persons immigration status. (if you visit the FBI NICS website you'll discover quite a bit of interesting stuff )

Since NCIS approved purchased are deleted at the end of the day what is the purpose of the confirmation number given to the dealer to record on the 4473?

The NTN (NICS Transaction Number) is given to the dealer BEFORE the FBI Customer Service Rep gives him the transaction status. When a customers name results in multiple record returns, the CSR will forward the call to an FBI Legal Documents Examiner who has the authority to determine if the records apply to this customer or if the information would deny the transaction.

The document review can take as little as ten seconds, as long as several weeks. If needed, the Examiner will "Delay" the transaction to conduct additional research.......meaning the FBI has three business days beginning the next business day, to deny that transaction.

The Brady Law does not prohibit the dealer from transferring the firearm after the three business days have elapsed......and also does not require it. The dealer can use the NTN to check status as often as he likes on the NICS Echeck.

I mean if the transaction is being truly deleted from the computer at the end of the day then the confirmation number is worthless as there is no record of the purchasers name, d.o.b. and Social Security number and the name of the dealer doing the transaction right?

As I explained in a previous post, only those transactions that ARE NOT "proceeds" may be kept beyond the end of the NICS business day.

Since approved transactions are deleted how can anyone said the gun was legally purchased?

The dealer will have the 4473 on file.

Remember, not all firearms sales require a NICS check. I'm sure you know that?

The dealer can just make up a code unless the Government has a record of the transaction which you said they delete?

You are correct, the dealer could just make up a code. He could also write in fake customer names, fake addresses, fake birthdates, and sign Mickey Mouse for his signature. Seriously dude, why have the customer fill out a 4473 if you are going to fake the NTN? If he wants to break the law he sure as heck isn't going to document the crime by having a 4473 as documentaion.

 

[xwingband]

You are confusing the E4473 with something Florida does for background checks..........they are not the same. The 4473 (paper or electronic) is an ATF form, background checks are the domain of the FBI NICS or in your case the FDLE (a state point of contact).

The FBI does have an online NICS Echeck that DOES connect with the FBI database.

Nope, you can tell me what you think it is, but you'd be wrong. I can read and that form printed out with the numbers 4473 on top.

Normally a dealer calls in and says my info into the phone for the background check through FDLE. Walmart employees have told me many times they do it because it's faster and has no chance of error on their part. The computer just sits and waits to spit back the confirmation for them to go ahead and sell it.

I'm not saying the electronic forms everywhere are connected, but it's pretty arrogant on your part to say it isn't or can't because my experience shows it does/can because here in Florida they're using the info off the form for the background checks.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

My guess is that you don't actually live in Arkansas.

I actually do (Pig Sooie), but I see what you're saying. Everything on my profile info is in fact true, but I do make it a point not to put too much on there. And I've made deals with several people on here and over at the castboolits website and their location did indeed match their profile.

But, you can't determine who someone is just from that information, granted.
And, I am not capable of tracking someone via their IP address, but I don't doubt that it can be done.

 

[12Pump]

But, you can't determine who someone is just from that information, granted.
And, I am not capable of tracking someone via their IP address, but I don't doubt that it can be done.

Oh, I'm sure they can too. I heard a story on the news once about how a guy got his apartment raided by the gov because someone was downloading child porn at his IP address. It turned out that someone was using a laptop and a directional Wi-fi antenna to use this guy's unsecured Wi-fi signal. So it's obvious the gov monitors certain things. I don't know if they monitor gun forums much or not, but I do know that THR is pretty tame when it comes to dialog compared to some others I've seen. I'm sure the gov would want to spend more resources monitoring those other sites.

 

[dogtown tom]

xwingband

Quote:
You are confusing the E4473 with something Florida does for background checks..........they are not the same. The 4473 (paper or electronic) is an ATF form, background checks are the domain of the FBI NICS or in your case the FDLE (a state point of contact).

The FBI does have an online NICS Echeck that DOES connect with the FBI database.

Nope, you can tell me what you think it is, but you'd be wrong. I can read and that form printed out with the numbers 4473 on top.

Ummmm..........you are dealing with two entities: ATF for the 4473, the FBI for the background check. Since you live in Florida, your dealer DOES NOT USE THE FBI NICS...........he contacts the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement, who are free to require whatever they want from the dealer......but it ain't the FBI NICS.
****and I've yet to see "4473" written at the top of the form.

I'm not saying the electronic forms everywhere are connected, but it's pretty arrogant on your part to say it isn't or can't because my experience shows it does/can because here in Florida they're using the info off the form for the background checks.

That's exactly where they are supposed to get the information for a background check........so what exactly is your point?

 

[xwingband]

When I've purchased at Walmart they printed out the forms and it said 4473 at the top. The manager had a template that was literally a blank sheet of paper with holes for the entries on the form to check they had all been filled out and the serials matched and such. I then had to sign it just like the normal 4473 I've used at other dealers.

What I understand you were say is that it is JUST form filling software. It's not. In Florida they are taking the information from it to go to the FDLE and do the background check. If it was JUST a form fill out they would print it first and call in the information like all the other normal gunshops I've been too. It's not what is happening.

So yes, I agree it's two entities. They keep the printed version for the ATF and the info got sent to FDLE (or it could be sent to NICS in another state, but I'm not sure as I've bought out of state for anything else) for the background check. FDLE destroys it like NICS does and you've just got a different looking printed 4473 on file at your local Walmart.

However I do not think it's tin foilery to not like the electronic version for the possibility of it being sent out in a form that can even more easily be saved. The software at Walmart can send out the form information as I've been saying. They're not doing separate actions to run the check, they are pulling the information directly out and sending it. If it were JUST form filling, they could use a PDF file with editable form fields and it'd do just as well.

 

[BSA1]

dogtown tom,

You wrote your replies to the previous posts in such a factual manner I mistaking took that to mean you had first hand knowledge of how the process actually works inside the system.

I did not realize that your experience has been read the regulations and are interpreting them the way you think they mean.

I don't mean this as a insult. Allow me to explain. I am a retired state bureaucrat with over 20 years experience. (The difference between State and Federal bureaucrat is I wasn't smart enough to figure out until it was too late how much better pay and retirement benefits Federal employees get).

Back to my point. Government regulations are not written for the public. They are written by bureaucrats, approved by Government lawyers, for other bureaucrats. Simply put Government regulations are complicated, tricky to read (this is where those commas, etc. that bored us to death in English class actually mean something). In addition to the written regulations bureaucrats have opinions from Government lawyers to tell them what the particular regulation really means and how it is to be applied. Equally or sometimes even more importantly what the regulations don't say is more important and can be used until a Court rules otherwise.

A point at hand is NICS is suppose to delete transactions that are approved at the end of the business day. If I was a bureaucrat working for the Feds the word "delete" in itself requires definition. What does the regs say about information sharing with other agencies? What computers is the information to be deleted from? What about paper records? What about information recovery of "deleted" files? As I said the confirmation approval number is worthless if everything about the transaction has been erased. Ah now we are back to what does "deleted" really mean in bureau lingo.

You are a honest man (You're a Texan right?) that is trying to run a Government regulated business within the limits of the rules. The problem is you (and I and most every other gun owner) don't know how the FBI/ATF really says what the rules and regulations mean until they have you in the crosshairs.

Don't take my word on any of this this. Just look at how the NSA and IRS are responding to the charges they violated their own rules and regulations and laws.

 

[Reloadron]

A point at hand is NCIS is suppose to delete transactions that are approved at the end of the business day.

I think you mean NICS.

NCIS would be Special Agent Gibbs and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

Ron

 

[jdh]

Unless you paid cash for it "they" know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it despite a NICS check/4473.