Push for Electronic 4473 Form

[MechAg94]

http://www.gunreports.com/news/hand...8-1.html?ET=gunreports:e185:135734a:&st=email

I saw this listed on an email I get. I hadn't seen it anywhere else. I thought I would throw it out here for comment.

For me, it seems an electronic submittal 4473 would seem to defeat the purpose of preventing the BATFE from keeping a firearms registration database. I can understand the issue of eliminating clerical errors, but I think there are better ways of addressing that. I also doubt this would eliminate the paperwork storage burden on the dealer.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation has begun urging ATF to adopt an electronic Form 4473 ("E-4473") that would be voluntary for both consumers and dealers and not connected to any government database (not a backdoor gun registry).

Accordingly, ATF is seeking public comment on the efficiency of its Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473 (Part 1, Over-the-Counter).

The NSSF says the comment period is an excellent opportunity for firearms dealers to tell ATF that an E-Form 4473 would:

Enhance the utility and clarity of the information to be collected.

Minimize the burden of consumers and dealers in completing the form through the use of automated, electronic and technological collection techniques, e.g., permitting electronic submission of responses to the questions asked.

Reduce mistakes — no more violations for a "Y" instead of a "Yes".

Shorten ATF inspections — less time spent reviewing 4473s.

Send your comments to:

Lynn Bryant, Department Clearance Officer, Policy and Planning Staff, Justice Management Division, Department of Justice, Patrick Henry Building, Suite 1600, 601 D Street NW, Washington, DC 20530.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Boy that one is tough. While the paperless version would be nice, the temptation of "someone" to keep a copy would seem too much to resist.(besides the dealer that is).

The proverbial rock and hard place.

How about we just do away with the damn things completely

 

[FieroCDSP]

Only the check itself is removed from the database. The feds can track any FFL sold gun to the person who signed on the line with only a bit of leg-work. Those forms won't expire any time soon. By the law, only the fact that a check was made on your name is required to be removed from the database every thirty days or so. Thats why sometimes it'll flag someone who's bought a couple of guns in one week for delay, but let them buy one a few months later with none.
But you are right, that would go against the "one" registry idea, but they've already got a registry scattered to hell and back across the country. All they have to do is find someone with the stones to clean the papers off the floor. If you catch my drift.

If they already have it anyway, why not pass a bill to save some trees and require the 4473 to be e-filed? ::rollseyes::

 

[FieroCDSP]

Shorten ATF inspections — less time spent reviewing 4473s

If I'm an unwilling participant in paying their salaries, they can unwillingy trudge their buttocks from the office to the store and spend hours looking at pieces of paper with a magnifying glass to make sure the right size of ball-point was used.

 

[lacoochee]

Wow, talk about being stuck on the horns of a dilemma...

On one hand it would make compiling the data that much easier for government agencies but it would in large part remove the stick that is used to bash FFL's at every turn, hell I might even consider being an FFL if the data collection portion was fool proofed. All you would need to do, is verify the identity of the buyer and enter your security code at the bottom of the form, you would essentially become a notary public for guns.

Another thought that occurs to me is that if you eliminate (hard to collect and destroy) paperwork, that no one will be finding records that didn't get destroyed on purpose 20 years from now. We could in another administration require the the destruction of the electronic data more easily. (of course their is the sticky problems of secret backup) but I guess we already have this problem...

Ok, I think this would be better for all parties involved until we can somehow eliminate the requirement altogether via the political process or constitutional reset.

Or not if this guy gets in power, hold on to the seat of your pants it's going to be bad....



Article is Linked on APS but the picture is worth a thousand words...and honestly scares me more than I should admit.

The Latin phrase "E Pluribus Unum," which translates to "Out of many, one," now says "Vero Possumus." Press reports translate the Latin words as "Truly, we are able" - a rough translation of the Obama campaign slogan, "Yes we can."

 

[jrfoxx]

If I'm an unwilling participant in paying their salaries, they can unwillingy trudge their buttocks from the office to the store and spend hours looking at pieces of paper with a magnifying glass to make sure the right size of ball-point was used.

Agreed. If it's too much of a burden on them, they are free to do away with the 4473 altogether. I dont think they'll get a lot of complaints.

I also agree this is a tough one. It has potential upsides, as mentioned already, but potential risk of abuse by the feds too (also mentioned). I guess the trick is, would it really matter if the feds stored the info, even if they were legally supposed to destroy it? Probly not, since they can have the same info by digging through the 4473's that have been turned in to them when dealers loose, turn in, dont renew thier license, or go to a dealer and dig through his 4473's heas has to keep for 20 years by law. All this would do is make access to the same info faster and easier, but not really change anything in that regard.

That said, I'm more than happy to make them do it te hard way, as I'm not a big fan of the BATFE, personally. Anyway we can pass a law that mandates all 4473's be stored in a tub of fire ants or something?

 

[uneasy_rider]

Would the electronic 4473 be treated any differently than the paper 4473? In other words, would it be sent to a government office or just kept on a hard drive in the gun store, like the paper 4473 is kept by the gun store?

As long as it is treated the same and does not fall into the hands of the federal government, I would be ok with an electronic 4473, but it goes to the feds, then it is simply gun registration.

 

[kevindsingleton]

Perhaps the electronic version would contain personal identifying information, but nothing about the actual firearm, itself. That way, the BATFE only knows that a firearm was tranferred, but has no record of which firearm, thus, no registration.

 

[uneasy_rider]

The 4473 would have to include information on the firearm. 4473 is routinely a part of the process to trace firearms that are lost, stolen, or used in crimes. There is no way the ATF would go along with leaving out info on the firearm. It would render the form basically useless.

 

[XD_fan]

Any electronic 4473 would find its way into a database. While its quick and easy to purge data; I guarantee, as a database administrator, that it will be copied into backups, saved as archives, etc. Data is the new commodity and as such can be abused tremendously. What happens the first time somebody cracks the ATF database and posts a copy of the database contents to the internet?

I think we should go back to the old system. You know the one where you walked into the store, paid your money, got a bill of sale and walked out. I bought a .22 at Otasco when I was 14 while my Dad waited in the truck for me. Took all of ten minutes. Imagine trying that today.

ETA: Your all forgetting something. The local store would just be logging into the ATF server to do this. They wouldn't keep anything. It would be in government hands from the get go.

 

[uneasy_rider]

What happens the first time somebody cracks the ATF database and posts a copy of the database contents to the internet?

If the electronic 4473 is treated the same as the paper 4473, then it would be stored on a hard drive at the gun store, and never transmitted to the ATF.

 

[XD_fan]

If the electronic 4473 is treated the same as the paper 4473, then it would be stored on a hard drive at the gun store, and never transmitted to the ATF.

That's just it. The quickest and simplest way to do this is to build a database and send FFLs an application for their PC. They log in to the ATF server and its done. I can see all the reasoning behind it too. No additional cost to the FFL (other than the PC), no worries about hard drive crashes, power surges, etc. Its really a no brainer from the IT point of view. Most of the approval process could even be automated. You don't really think the people at NICS are looking in a big book to see if your good to go? This stuff is ALREADY in a database. If your going to streamline the process, then you remove the local problem.

 

[waterhouse]

By the law, only the fact that a check was made on your name is required to be removed from the database every thirty days or so. Thats why sometimes it'll flag someone who's bought a couple of guns in one week for delay, but let them buy one a few months later with none.

Really? I thought all "Proceed" checks were required to be removed every 24 hours. Do you have a source for your information?

According to the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nics24-hour.htm

Section 617 of the 2004 Consolidated Appropriations Bill, passed by congress in January, dictates that the NICS implement a 24-Hour destruction period by July 21, 2004. This requires the destruction of all identifying information in the NICS Audit Log relating to a lawful purchase within 24 hours of delivering the "proceed" message to the Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL).

If I'm an unwilling participant in paying their salaries, they can unwillingy trudge their buttocks from the office to the store and spend hours looking at pieces of paper with a magnifying glass to make sure the right size of ball-point was used.

From a dealer standpoint, the less time the ATF is in the store, the less time you have to pay attention to them, and the more time you can dedicate to running your business and customer service.

As a dealer, it would be nice not to have to store all of the paperwork, and check over it several times to make sure nothing is missed.

As a gun owner, I find the concept scary, and leading towards an online database of gun owners and the makes, models, and serial numbers of their guns.

 

[Robert Hairless]

How about we just do away with the damn things completely.

But then how would the criminals let law enforcement know what guns they have just acquired? And how would law enforcement trace those guns back to the criminals who bought them?

Criminals throughout the country might rise up in protest if they were denied the opportunity to file this form, and who could blame them? Think of the social consequences of such an action. Society as we know it would crumble.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I thought all "Proceed" checks were required to be removed every 24 hours

Yeah, sure, of course they are.

There was a guy over at ARFCOM, dealer in FL was selling SBR's in the illegal fashion and he had a questionable lower, ATF showed up with a list of EVER FIREARM he had purchased 4473, he wound up in the clear but still. a little creepy for my taste.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Reduce mistakes — no more violations for a "Y" instead of a "Yes".

I have to think they could solve that one without an electronic system. Like maybe by accepting that "Y" and "Yes" mean the same thing?

 

[Bubbles]

From what I understand about this proposal, the e-4473 would be a fill-in-the-blank PDF or DOC file that is stored locally on the FFL's computer. The customer fills in the blanks appropriately, the form gets printed and the customer signs it, then the FFL calls NICS and fills in the remainder of the form depending on the response from NICS. The actual data is never stored electronically on the FFL's computer. Of course, I could see the next step being the FFL has to retain electronic as well as hard copies...

I can see where the e-4473 would help reduce some errors, but create the potential for others such as typos.

Finally, there's that expression: to err is human, to really mess up requires a computer...

 

[wildbilll]

In the past I have asked why there isn't a program for the PC that will fill in a PDF* that can be printed and signed by the applicant. This would seem to be the solution. The PDF can validate the answers as acceptable "YES or NO" instead of "Y or N", select counties from a list of counties sorted by state, etc. Printing out the PDF when it passes the validation would eliminate the need for computerized copies.
Using a totally electronic system would require a method for a digital signature from the applicant, which would require a government database of those who have signed up for the ability to digitally sign a electronic 4473.
Paper is the way to go, it just need to be a computer generated 4473, with no electronic copies anywhere.
The nice thing about a goverment approved PDF form is that any mistakes such as typos are due to their inadequate program, not the fault of the FFL.
*PDF = Adobe Portable Document Format

 

[waterhouse]

mistakes such as typos are due to their inadequate program, not the fault of the FFL.

How so? A typo such as transposed digits in a zip code is not the fault of the program, and it is much more likely to happen when keying in a number than when writing it. Most guys spell their names correctly with a pen and write their zip codes in the correct order.

I see no advantage to having a customer sit down at my computer, fill in a form, and then use my paper and ink to print out the form so that I can store it in a file cabinet like I already do. Plus, the form is currently 3 pages, so now I have to get a staple involved. 1,000 forms is 3000 sheets held together by 1,000 staples. One page goes missing and the ATF gets to write me up for losing page 2 from when John Smith bought a . . . well, we don't really know what he bought, because it was on page 2 and a staple fell out.

Under the current system, the ATF sends me forms for free, and I can have 4 guys filling out forms at one time, instead of waiting in line to use a computer. It is pretty easy for me to see if someone writes Yes or Y and correct it.

If I can get rid of the file cabinets, there is an advantage. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[wildbilll]

You are right - up to the point where BATFE decides to do a "RED's" on you.
I am glad to hear that your 4473's are error free and that you have such a good working relationship with the Feds.
When the BATFE rejects the notion of a computer based system, you will know that they aren't intersted in obtaining compliance with the requirment for accurate information. They are interested in having the sword of damocles hanging over your head so they can nail you when it is convienient for them to do so.

 

[Jolly Rogers]

Quote:
I thought all "Proceed" checks were required to be removed every 24 hours

Yeah, sure, of course they are.


I like these too!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!
and...the check is in the mail...
Joe

 

[ArmedBear]

I think it should be handwritten in chalk on a cinder block weighing not less than 10 lbs. To make it easier for FFLs, the blocks can be washed clean daily.

 

[FieroCDSP]

From what I understand about this proposal, the e-4473 would be a fill-in-the-blank PDF or DOC file that is stored locally on the FFL's computer.

What if you're a high volume store and have more than one person wanting a gun and only have one computer dedicated for the purpose? Make people wait? What if you have someone butt-slow on the terminal??

Seriously, the common errors on the forms can be solved easily without getting any more computer work involved. Remember the nightmare of putting information on the old yellow form 4473? you never knew where to write, be it below or above the line, and just when you think you got it, BAM!! smack into the next box's space. As a retailer, try explaining to someone why they have to do it all over again. The revised form was a nice change for once. The simple addition of boxes (or lines denoting boxes) made everything clearer. Unfortunately, it takes a literal act of Congress to change the form.

"Y" and "N" in the english language look nothing alike. Make those an acceptable mark on the form. Make standard abbreviations allowed as well. St, Apt, as well as state abbreviations.

 

[FieroCDSP]

I thought all "Proceed" checks were required to be removed every 24 hours

Regardless of what the law says, it's not 24 hours. My friend bought an XD-9 and Walther P22 in a couple days time (here in Ohio) and clears immediately both times. He goes to get a CZ-75 after selling back the XD-9 (liked the CZ better). The CZ purchase was two weeks after the XD purchase and he got delayed. Came back two days later just fine.

If they're actually clearing the files every 24, then why did he get delayed two weeks later? The only solution that makes sense is the number of handguns being purchased by a single name in a set time is being monitored.

 

[waterhouse]

Regardless of what the law says, it's not 24 hours. My friend bought an XD-9 and Walther P22 in a couple days time (here in Ohio) and clears immediately both times. He goes to get a CZ-75 after selling back the XD-9 (liked the CZ better). The CZ purchase was two weeks after the XD purchase and he got delayed. Came back two days later just fine.

Did your friend buy these guns at the same store? If so, the dealer is required to send paperwork stating that a person bought multiple handguns not only to the ATF but also the local CLEO. This paperwork would contain the buyer's name and address, as well as the make, model, serial number, caliber, and type of firearms that were bought.

Even if not, it isn't the only situation that makes sense. Depending on your friend's name, a crime could have been committed by someone with a similar name. When I was a LEO and we would run a check on a name and DOB, sometimes 10 "hits" would come back, because the name and DOB were "close" in the computer. Then you have to actually look at the descriptive features of the guy in front of you. If he is 5'7 and the felon in the computer with the similar name is 6'4, it isn't the same guy. The same sort of thing happens with the NICS check. The computer checks for possible hits. If it finds nothing, you get a proceed. If the computer isn't sure, you get a delay while a real, actual person double checks the data set.