Anyone convert a SxS to a double rifle?

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WestKentucky

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I have for years looked at the double rifles used in africa with great pleasure and admiration. I want one badly, but can not possibly justify that large of an investment. I was considering something like a decent 410 bore or 28 ga side by side with conversion chambers to something like 30-30 or 357 mag. The problems i see in my quick searches are that I find no calibers I would consider, and of the ones that are listed I feel like there would be such a large shift in POI vs POA from barrel to barrel that it simply wouldn't work out due to inaccuracy.

The other thought was to run brass case .410 hulls with a 41 mag lead bullet, but with no rifling again we have major accuracy issues.

Has anyone attempted this, and if successful how did you do it and what was the overall cost?
 
theres a company or two that makes barrel inserts. and you can get lots of really fun cartridges for them. like 7.62x54r and even 9.63.

most will require a 12 guauge shotgun as the basis. thats because the insert becomes the actual barrel and your shotgun simply holds everything together. and then you need the extra room for something that potent and extractor/ejectors.
 
There's the Baikal .45/70 double rifle. They run less than one thousand. I think they also offered a set of tubes to put in their shotguns at one time.
 
The big downside to using a shotgun as a starting point is the weight which is why I want to use a smaller bore shotgun, 20 at the absolute most. A 20" 20ga with 44 mag tubes or 30-30 tubes would be sweet for hunting in thick woods provided it would hit well enough to even try it.
 
I collect Eurpoean double rifles and German Drillings, and have figured out that there's a fairly good way to convert any decent double shotgun to a double rifle, using some technology that's been generally used only by the Germans in their drillings. These are, of course, a three barrel shotgun/rifle combination. Most commonly they are double 16 gauge over either 7x57 Mauser or 9.2x72R. The thing is that licencing in Germany makes it hard to own multiple firearms, so very often a Drilling is complemented by a device known as an Einsteklauf. These are *very* good barrel inserts, that are adjustable for regulation, and when slid into a shotgun barrel convert it to any of dozens of rifle calibers. Unlike the common inserts we see here, they lock into the bore with a tool that opens up a locking foot on the device that wedges it into the chamber, are adjustable for regulation (so they shoot to the same point of aim as the rifle barrel in the Drilling), and most uniquely they also use the existing extractor to mechanically drive another extractor so when you open the Drilling, you extract the cartridge from the device. They come in both short and long versions, the short being about 10 inches long and the long versions being full barrel length.

Using a pair of these, you can convert any double barrel shotgun to a double rifle. You can run cartridges right up thru the .30-06 class or larger, and as small as .22 (generally in Germany .22 magnum is used). They are not cheap, but a good shotgun with sights added and two adapters will still cost far less than any double rifle.

Truthfully, when you start looking at these, I hope you are drawn to the utility of a Drilling, and get interested in them. My favorite is a Sauer in double 16 over 8x57JRS. That alone is great: The left barrel shoots to the same point of aim with Brenneke slugs as does the rifle barrel. I stick a .22 mag einsteklauf in the right barrel and I have .22, shotgun, and 8mm rifle all in one with a claw-mount scope that snaps off in a moment. Then there's a 9.2x74 adapter for the left barrel that gives me a cartridge suitable for any African game I would ever care to shoot. Contemplate these.

Google "einsteklauf" and see what you come up with. Most websites will be in German, but are self explainatory. There are several makers at different price points. Good quality short ones are available used in the $300 range with new top quality long versions worth up to $2000 each. These aren't your el-cheapo inserts.

16 gauge is the most common guage these are made for, but there are many for both 12 and 20 as well. The 16 is likely going to offer the best balance though, if you want to assemble a quality setup.

The biggest thing to solve when converting a shotgun to a double rifle is regulating the barrels to shoot to point of aim. The adjustments inherant in an einsteklauf make this a simple task.


Willie

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Years ago there was a guy who could put in machined to fit, stainless steel inserts to a double barreled shotgun with external hammers and he'd sight both barrels to intersect at whatever distance in yards the buyer wanted with the express sights he put on, he created 45 caliber straight case of various calibers and also in 50 caliber straight case. I think that the cartridges were always with black powder.
 
Very interesting post, Willie Sutton. I've always been interested in barrel inserts for various purposes.

Terry
 
BY FAR the best option for a cheep S&S DR is the Biakal!

They aren't "fine" doubles but they shoot pretty good and are a LOT better than some cobble job garage double, or cheapo insert bbl. double...

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Get one now, as Obummer has stopped importation of them and they are starting to get harder to find.

DM
 
Quick Double

Machinists Workshop magazine did a 2-part article a few years ago on converting an over-under shotgun to a double rifle:

A Quick Double - Part One Prestridge, Fred MW Vol. 22 No. 5 Oct-Nov 2009
A Quick Double -- Part Two Prestridge, Fred MW Vol. 22 No. 6 Dec 2009-Jan 2010
 
I love drillings, but all I have ran across have been one of two categories...$400 beaters that are beyond wall hanger quality to the point of being trash, or the $4000+ gun which is about 5 times my max budget. I see old SxS guns regularly for a few hundred bucks, and with another few hundred I could buy matched inserts in a low pressure cartridge I am interested in or already load for like 30-30 or 38spl. I would be OK with a 500 dollar contraption that could be turned back into a SxS shotgun or used in other calibers should I chose to do such craziness at some point. If I go with a "guage" rather than a .410 I might pursue 45-70... (or even 50-90 if anybody will make it) of course I could simply buy a SxS and shoot slugs, but what fun is that?
 
Unless I'm badly mistaken Remington made a 600-700 dollar plain Jane double rifle. I know nothing about them but you might wan to look into them if you just want a double rifle for cheap.
 
Brainstorm/brainfart...to be determined...if a .410 bore shotgun is truly a .410, could I simply load 41 mag bullets into something like a 444 marlin case and fire away? Of course being very cautious about overpressure and trying to not blow myself up....which would indicate pressure signs which may still not be a safe indicator in a shotgun.
 
None of the above!

1. A .41 bullet in a smoothbore .410 shotgun will just tumble with no accuracy at all.

2. The .41 Magnum runs 35,000 PSI pressure.

3. The .410 shotgun runs 12,500 in 2 1/2", and 13,500 on 3".

Or 2-3 times as much pressure.

Don't go there!

rc
 
I wasn't planning to just pop 41s into the 410...and since it's smooth bore it still isn't a rifle. I was thinking about rifled choke tubes but then I thought again and i have never heard of such for a 410, or a 410 double that takes tubes.
 
Double shot gun to double 45/70
I never owned one but some years back I saw one my gunsmith was making out of a
small gauge hammer gun that had been WW2 bring home. It wasn't a sleeve job. He
had fitted Douglas barrels into breeches. When I saw it he was regulating barrels with
shims. I was thrashing him off the bags. This was a hi-quality gun, had beautiful wood,
carving and engravings. I got to see it finished, wouldn't have wanted the bill on that job.
 
I have a Remington 45-70 double rifle made by Baikal. They are no longer imported under the Remington brand, but I think they are still imported. It is a decen quality gun with an interesting way of regulating the barrels to shoot of the same place. The last time I checked they were available on gunbtoker for under a thousand dollars.
 
DR

The big problem with converting a double barreled shotgun into a double rifle via barrel inserts is not weight; it is regulation....getting the barrels to shoot to the same point of aim (or very close). Shotgun barrels are not regulated witbn anywhere near the same care as a double rifle.
Also....the idea that the paths of the bullets fired from each barrel will cross at a certain distance is, iirc, flawed. if it were true then the rifle would be essentially useless after the intersection. The barrels, properly regulated should keep the trajectories parallel.
Upper and lower barrel from a .30-06 Rizzini 90L Express:
Frankly, I forget whether this was fired at fifty or one hundred yards....go with 50.
FF9E1EBC-1462-4EF5-BFC1-F0BD8F8E1CE6.jpg
 
"Brainstorm/brainfart...to be determined...if a .410 bore shotgun is truly a .410, could I simply load 41 mag bullets into something like a 444 marlin case and fire away?"


Sure, and you would have re-invented brass cased shotgun slugs about 125 years after they were first sold.

Why not just buy .410 slugs at that point? You're not shooting a double rifle unless it's rifled......



I guess you could buy this odd conversion of what once was a nice Parker. I certainly appreciate the lack of attempting to design the new barrels to have the same outer diameter of the host shotun barrels, which have been cut WAY back. Interesting NFA question to the gunsmith who built it... short barreled shotgun and all at the moment the barrels were hacksawed off. Probably was a shotgun that was jammed into snow and mud and had the barrel(s) blown apart at the end, repurposed to a .45-70. Truithfully, it might not be too bad if you want to stay under $2K. In the future you could remove the conversion barrrels and have the worlds only sawed-off Parker...


http://www.gunsinternational.com/PARKER-CUSTOM-DOUBLE-RIFLE-45-70.cfm?gun_id=100495094




Willie

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PeteD , I believe Hemingway's actual quote was: "There are only three true sports; Bull fighting, automobile racing and hunting. All of the others are merely activities."

Now.....what do all three of those sports have in common? Hint: Hemingway hunted dangerous game almost exclusively. So the common thread is.....

Bingo! The sportsman is risking his life.
 
Almost forgot. Does Pedersoli still make their double rifle in 45-70? They are beautiful guns and used to be around $4,000.
 
A possible answer for a DIY'er is likely found in the idea of barrel stubbing. This, if you haven't read about it already, being where you cut the barrel(s) off just forward of the chambering area and then machine it out to accept a threaded or pinned barrel blank or donator barrel that is machined to fit in the chamber block. In the case of a shotgun this might well come with some slight inward angling that requires the rifle barrels to be slightly curved to where they meet at the muzzles. But that's OK. Bullets travel down a slight curve just fine. And if the barrel clamps are made to allow some slight tuning you can get the rounds to travel to a common point at some distance by shimming or otherwise tuning the barrel clamps.

A common subject for these barrel stubbing projects have been the single shot H&R Handi rifles. Doing this to a SxS or o/u double would be a lot more ambitious but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

My own interest is in a .410 size frame with a paired set of .357Mag barrels. What a great little plinker or hunter that would be! ! ! ! But it was pointed out to me that more than likely the chamber area of a .410 is too slender to allow for the chamber wall thickness needed to hold back the pressure from a .357Mag. And that the hinge likely isn't strong enough either. But perhaps a .38Spl double?
 
BCRider, that has been exactly where my thought have been. I want small and light but still plenty power, 357 is my goal, but I expect 38spl. If it just so happens that I find either a 357 or 38 barrel of poor appearance that can be chocked into a lathe I may be making a purchase or three. I have a 410 single I can use until I find a fitting doublegun.
 
Well there have been a few over and under "double" rifles made already. Savage model 24 comes to mind. If you can have a 30-30 over 12 GA rifled or 30-06 over 20 GA then up to 30-06 over and under should work OK I would think. Lock work would be OK as well. I have several of these now in different factory configurations.
 
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