DualBerettas
Member
what and how much did you do? how much did it hurt?
DB
DB
anyone ever been to a S.C.A.R.S. training camp?
- Thread starter DualBerettas
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goalie
Member
No, but SERE school sucked, hurt and made me want to cry. Actually, I may have cried, I don't remember and am actively repressing the memories.
Oh, BTW, what the heck is SCARS????
Oh, BTW, what the heck is SCARS????
Greg L
Member
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once....
stevelyn
Member
goalie
Member
Oh, I just went into the Marines to get my combat training.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I don't know SCARS, haven't tried SCARS, and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. But I haven't heard good things. Jerry Peterson claims that SCARS is this innovative, breakthrough scientific combat system he developed to teach the Navy SEALs how to fight.
The way I hear it, SCARS is pretty basic techniques from several schools of martial arts cobbled together and re-labeled as a brand new, innovative sytem. I, personally, would not be happy about that, because it points to a lack of integrity and suggests that other things about the "system" may not be as advertised. Also the B.S. about being a SEAL trainer seems to be just that. At most, Peterson may have put on a seminar for a SEAL team or, more likely, had a SEAL as a student at one time. This would be analogous to Clint Smith claiming to have been the "NYPD Firearms Trainer" because a lot of NYPD cops have been to Thunder Ranch--and that doesn't take into account the fact that Mr. Smith has probably had a lot more NYPD students than Mr. Peterson has had SEAL students.
On the other hand, most of the discussion I've seen grudgingly admits that the techniques are valid, just not the breakthroughs claimed.
I don't know what this seminar costs or how much trouble you're going to in order to attend, but I wouldn't want to pay "innovative breakthrough" prices to learn stuff I could learn at the local dojo on my own terms. I'd pass.
I'm going to move this to the MA forum so you'll get more and better responses.
The way I hear it, SCARS is pretty basic techniques from several schools of martial arts cobbled together and re-labeled as a brand new, innovative sytem. I, personally, would not be happy about that, because it points to a lack of integrity and suggests that other things about the "system" may not be as advertised. Also the B.S. about being a SEAL trainer seems to be just that. At most, Peterson may have put on a seminar for a SEAL team or, more likely, had a SEAL as a student at one time. This would be analogous to Clint Smith claiming to have been the "NYPD Firearms Trainer" because a lot of NYPD cops have been to Thunder Ranch--and that doesn't take into account the fact that Mr. Smith has probably had a lot more NYPD students than Mr. Peterson has had SEAL students.
On the other hand, most of the discussion I've seen grudgingly admits that the techniques are valid, just not the breakthroughs claimed.
I don't know what this seminar costs or how much trouble you're going to in order to attend, but I wouldn't want to pay "innovative breakthrough" prices to learn stuff I could learn at the local dojo on my own terms. I'd pass.
I'm going to move this to the MA forum so you'll get more and better responses.
Don't want to get into a HtoH system flame war...I hate them and avoid them like the plague. I've met Jerry Peterson, He is the real deal. If you go you'll learn a lot. PM me and I'll give details. Oh, it didn't hurt all that much
P.S. Also check out Tim Larkin at www.tftgroup.com
P.S. Also check out Tim Larkin at www.tftgroup.com
Gray_Fallen
Member
From what I have seen SCARS is low belt level Kung Fu repackaged as a super-duper Navy SEAL killer combat art. So there may be some sound things in there, but the packaging certainly make it seems like something it isnt - and from what I have seen, so does the delivery.
Peterson talks about SCARs being an aggressive, forward pressing, methodology - but then has also said it is based entirely on REACTIONARY initial movements, reactionary counters to a first blow from your opponent.
I'm sorry, but am I the only one who smells taurian excrete?
You cant be reacting and be agressive at the same time, action and reaction are not something you can do at the same time. And as I think we have established before, reaction is bad beyond the initial startle responce, if you get surprised.
If I have any fore-warning that the guy infront of me is going to slug me, I am gonna pop him first, not wait for him to pop me and base everything I do off that. He might just get lucky and hit me so bad I dont get a chance to do anything else - Goodnight Gracie!
Its good to have startle responces, counters and defenses to surprise attacks that let you quickly gain control of a fight, but basing an entire system around that sounds like bad ju-ju to me.
Especially with the hype, and especially with the price. Last I heard SCARS was the most expensive stuff around - and not because it was the best, simply because, as P.T. Barnum said, theirs a sucker born every minute and Peterson, skills or not, knows it.
My advice is to avoid SCARS - dont be another sucka.
While Peterson himself may be "the real deal", and may be a great fighter - something tells me its not because of the material in SCARS alone.
There might be something in there that you can break down and get good use of, BUT, wouldnt you rather learn more straight-forward, less BS, more well rounded material that you didnt have to whittle down to get real combative value out of, and that didnt use insulting hype-marketing to sell itself?
I Know I would.
Before you go bust trying to go to one of the SCARS seminars, find a good local place, JuJutsu, one of the Filipino Martial Arts, something like that - do that for awhile. If you want SCARS type stuff, go to a Kung Fu school or some such - get your reactionary counter based techniques from there, dont shill out major bucks for something every McDojo in stripmalls across America teaches.
Check out wwww.close-combat-video.com get some of Carl Cestari's videos, and ask when he's having another big seminar.
And for some at home training, check out www.gutterfighting.org
(Am not affiliated with either of these sites - but think the material is worth its printed weight in gold)
And no - because someone will ask - I havent met Peterson, trained with him or trained any of the SCARS material - but I was interested, so I looked around, I read, I asked, and I came to the conclusions that well, see above. So, FWIW, thats what I saw from SCARS.
Peterson talks about SCARs being an aggressive, forward pressing, methodology - but then has also said it is based entirely on REACTIONARY initial movements, reactionary counters to a first blow from your opponent.
I'm sorry, but am I the only one who smells taurian excrete?
You cant be reacting and be agressive at the same time, action and reaction are not something you can do at the same time. And as I think we have established before, reaction is bad beyond the initial startle responce, if you get surprised.
If I have any fore-warning that the guy infront of me is going to slug me, I am gonna pop him first, not wait for him to pop me and base everything I do off that. He might just get lucky and hit me so bad I dont get a chance to do anything else - Goodnight Gracie!
Its good to have startle responces, counters and defenses to surprise attacks that let you quickly gain control of a fight, but basing an entire system around that sounds like bad ju-ju to me.
Especially with the hype, and especially with the price. Last I heard SCARS was the most expensive stuff around - and not because it was the best, simply because, as P.T. Barnum said, theirs a sucker born every minute and Peterson, skills or not, knows it.
My advice is to avoid SCARS - dont be another sucka.
While Peterson himself may be "the real deal", and may be a great fighter - something tells me its not because of the material in SCARS alone.
There might be something in there that you can break down and get good use of, BUT, wouldnt you rather learn more straight-forward, less BS, more well rounded material that you didnt have to whittle down to get real combative value out of, and that didnt use insulting hype-marketing to sell itself?
I Know I would.
Before you go bust trying to go to one of the SCARS seminars, find a good local place, JuJutsu, one of the Filipino Martial Arts, something like that - do that for awhile. If you want SCARS type stuff, go to a Kung Fu school or some such - get your reactionary counter based techniques from there, dont shill out major bucks for something every McDojo in stripmalls across America teaches.
Check out wwww.close-combat-video.com get some of Carl Cestari's videos, and ask when he's having another big seminar.
And for some at home training, check out www.gutterfighting.org
(Am not affiliated with either of these sites - but think the material is worth its printed weight in gold)
And no - because someone will ask - I havent met Peterson, trained with him or trained any of the SCARS material - but I was interested, so I looked around, I read, I asked, and I came to the conclusions that well, see above. So, FWIW, thats what I saw from SCARS.
The problem that I have with SCARS is the over-hyped advertisements for it.
Combat Handguns magazine, May 1999, page 59:
"Get my free report on lethal fighting -- and I guarantee for the rest of your life you won't lose using my system. And I put it in writing!"
"With SCARS you're undefeatable!"
"This is your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to become undefeatable (with or without a weapon) with the SCARS Professional Fighting System."
"Look, you'll receive more knowledge in one hour from Jerry Peterson's videos on fighting than two decades of so-called 'Secret' Martial Arts."
That noise you hear in the background is the LawDog BS-O-Meter(tm) burying the needle.
"...in just a few short hours of watching you will easily handle any bad guy that comes your way!!!"
"I can't tell you the 'god-like' power you get from the truth of this system!"
Okay, people. Show of paws here: of the people here who have actually had to get down and break heads with another human being, how many of you believe that there is One True System which will guarantee that you will become invincible?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Never taken SCARS, or watched the videos; never going to, either.
LawDog
Combat Handguns magazine, May 1999, page 59:
"Get my free report on lethal fighting -- and I guarantee for the rest of your life you won't lose using my system. And I put it in writing!"
"With SCARS you're undefeatable!"
"This is your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to become undefeatable (with or without a weapon) with the SCARS Professional Fighting System."
"Look, you'll receive more knowledge in one hour from Jerry Peterson's videos on fighting than two decades of so-called 'Secret' Martial Arts."
That noise you hear in the background is the LawDog BS-O-Meter(tm) burying the needle.
"...in just a few short hours of watching you will easily handle any bad guy that comes your way!!!"
"I can't tell you the 'god-like' power you get from the truth of this system!"
Okay, people. Show of paws here: of the people here who have actually had to get down and break heads with another human being, how many of you believe that there is One True System which will guarantee that you will become invincible?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Never taken SCARS, or watched the videos; never going to, either.
LawDog
DualBerettas
Member
it's based on autokinetics, i.e. how the body reacts when struck...i have some tapes....i was skeptical but it is very believable...and the tapes show seals doing some of his sequences...
DB
DB
Gray_Fallen
Member
From everything I can tell autokinetics is something Peterson made up. Google it - lots of new-agey self help books, one autoparts company, but nothing I have found in regards to "autokinetics" being a serious field of performace sciences, or martial arts sciences study.
How does the body react? I dunno - hopefully when you are fighting another body the things you do to it A: Break It, B: Pierce It, C: Tear Large Pieces Off It or D: Shock it so violently and forcefully that the brain, spinal column, and tissues surrounding the airways, arteries and internal organs are bruised and began to swell, cutting off everything from functioning and wrecking the central nervous system. Thats all I've found to care about in how the body reacts.
Theres nothing wrong with performance sciences, studying movement concepts, muscle use and joint articulation, and those related fields - theres a lot of valuable information to be learned from performance sciences and studies of human anatomy and how the body works - all the better to maximize what you do with yours, to take his apart and destroy its functionality on a select or total level depending on what he makes you do.
But ya know... I'm just saying, be VERY skeptical of people slinging around big terms like "autokinetics" when they are the only ones using those terms, or those terms to mean what they are saying. Its umm... fishy to say the least. This doesnt go for just SCARS, it happens in a lot of BS self defense classes/tapes/books.
How do you know they were SEALs?
I mean sure they can say it, and dress the part, but c'mon - I meet two or three guys at every gunshow I go to who are wearing the budweiser and who say they were SEALs, and I still dont believe them.
Its very easy to dress a bunch of people up like SEALs and get them to say they are for a training tape.
I know SCARS has some supposeded SEAL connections - and my take has always been "But they dont train SCARS now, do they?" and that everyone is allowed to make mistakes.
A lot of people say "SEAL this" and "SEAL that" to sell tapes - it doesnt mean much.
Train what you want, practice what you want - its everyones call whether or not they want to do X material, and how good they think what they are doing needs to be.
But just lemmie say this - SCARS buries the needle on a lot more peoples BS-O-Meters than just mine and LawDogs, people who have BTDT, and people who havent, who just have a lot of training under their belt - and its pretty widely regarded as a scam, and a very expensive one at that, in terms of hype versus actual combative value of the material taught.
Just, ya know, FWIW.
Check out the links I suggested - see how that stuff strikes you. IMNSHO its lightyears ahead of anything SCARS related from what I have seen, but 'eh... everyone has got to make the choice of what they are willing to buy into for some psychological feel good, or what they wont buy into in favour of the cold comfort of knowing for certain your physical ability and skills are top notch.
NO One has 100% guaranteed survivability. Anyone and Everyone can get put down for the big dirtnap - it can happen to even the most skilled.
No system can guarantee your survival, can guarantee that you will win. Its simply not realistic.
If someone puts the mark on you, odds are you will die. Happened to that champion kickboxer in San Fran, he learned the hard way that all the skills, all the badassery, in the world still dont stop bullets. "Why didnt he do a gun disarm" because he didnt have a chance - someone puts the mark on you, you are a dead man. Its that simple. No system, no method of fighting, can protect you from that.
Dont be a loud mouth, dont go chasing people down in traffic who hit your car and not run off when they tell you "get out of here man, I am on the run from the law", be smart. And dont count on any system, or the big words of any individual, to protect you from all that is evil. Some men are liars and dont care about your personal safety, only want your money. Some men think they care and think they are doing right, but are simply not. Some men can help you find combative truth. Its your job to find out who that is, to seriously evaluate all you see and read, run it seriously through the BS-O-Meter and the filter of "is this a technique that I can use realistically on the street, in a variety of scenarios not just the one presented here", because we all should know that some techniques arent for the street, and no fight ever happens like a kata, flow drill or pre-planned scenario. Your skillset has to be adaptable, or you will be swamped when you get in a real fight and the badguys dont behave like "Grand Masta Sof Ulla Shi" said they would.
Be critical about everything - your life depends on it.
Before you spend a couple grand on a SCARS seminar - pick up one of Carl Cestari's basic combatives tapes, or one of Kelly J. McCann/Jim Grovers combatives tapes, and give those a look - see if you dont find more truth, more reality, in those peoples presentations and methodologies than in ol' Jerry's over-hyped super duper killer SEAL combat system.
How does the body react? I dunno - hopefully when you are fighting another body the things you do to it A: Break It, B: Pierce It, C: Tear Large Pieces Off It or D: Shock it so violently and forcefully that the brain, spinal column, and tissues surrounding the airways, arteries and internal organs are bruised and began to swell, cutting off everything from functioning and wrecking the central nervous system. Thats all I've found to care about in how the body reacts.
Theres nothing wrong with performance sciences, studying movement concepts, muscle use and joint articulation, and those related fields - theres a lot of valuable information to be learned from performance sciences and studies of human anatomy and how the body works - all the better to maximize what you do with yours, to take his apart and destroy its functionality on a select or total level depending on what he makes you do.
But ya know... I'm just saying, be VERY skeptical of people slinging around big terms like "autokinetics" when they are the only ones using those terms, or those terms to mean what they are saying. Its umm... fishy to say the least. This doesnt go for just SCARS, it happens in a lot of BS self defense classes/tapes/books.
How do you know they were SEALs?
I mean sure they can say it, and dress the part, but c'mon - I meet two or three guys at every gunshow I go to who are wearing the budweiser and who say they were SEALs, and I still dont believe them.
Its very easy to dress a bunch of people up like SEALs and get them to say they are for a training tape.
I know SCARS has some supposeded SEAL connections - and my take has always been "But they dont train SCARS now, do they?" and that everyone is allowed to make mistakes.
A lot of people say "SEAL this" and "SEAL that" to sell tapes - it doesnt mean much.
Train what you want, practice what you want - its everyones call whether or not they want to do X material, and how good they think what they are doing needs to be.
But just lemmie say this - SCARS buries the needle on a lot more peoples BS-O-Meters than just mine and LawDogs, people who have BTDT, and people who havent, who just have a lot of training under their belt - and its pretty widely regarded as a scam, and a very expensive one at that, in terms of hype versus actual combative value of the material taught.
Just, ya know, FWIW.
Check out the links I suggested - see how that stuff strikes you. IMNSHO its lightyears ahead of anything SCARS related from what I have seen, but 'eh... everyone has got to make the choice of what they are willing to buy into for some psychological feel good, or what they wont buy into in favour of the cold comfort of knowing for certain your physical ability and skills are top notch.
NO One has 100% guaranteed survivability. Anyone and Everyone can get put down for the big dirtnap - it can happen to even the most skilled.
No system can guarantee your survival, can guarantee that you will win. Its simply not realistic.
If someone puts the mark on you, odds are you will die. Happened to that champion kickboxer in San Fran, he learned the hard way that all the skills, all the badassery, in the world still dont stop bullets. "Why didnt he do a gun disarm" because he didnt have a chance - someone puts the mark on you, you are a dead man. Its that simple. No system, no method of fighting, can protect you from that.
Dont be a loud mouth, dont go chasing people down in traffic who hit your car and not run off when they tell you "get out of here man, I am on the run from the law", be smart. And dont count on any system, or the big words of any individual, to protect you from all that is evil. Some men are liars and dont care about your personal safety, only want your money. Some men think they care and think they are doing right, but are simply not. Some men can help you find combative truth. Its your job to find out who that is, to seriously evaluate all you see and read, run it seriously through the BS-O-Meter and the filter of "is this a technique that I can use realistically on the street, in a variety of scenarios not just the one presented here", because we all should know that some techniques arent for the street, and no fight ever happens like a kata, flow drill or pre-planned scenario. Your skillset has to be adaptable, or you will be swamped when you get in a real fight and the badguys dont behave like "Grand Masta Sof Ulla Shi" said they would.
Be critical about everything - your life depends on it.
Before you spend a couple grand on a SCARS seminar - pick up one of Carl Cestari's basic combatives tapes, or one of Kelly J. McCann/Jim Grovers combatives tapes, and give those a look - see if you dont find more truth, more reality, in those peoples presentations and methodologies than in ol' Jerry's over-hyped super duper killer SEAL combat system.
I'm training under a former SF operator. We do Wing Chun. Is it the ultimate art because a special operations guy does it? No, but it is damn good training. S.C.A.R.S. is buried under the "operator" mystique, and what lies beneath doesn't live up to claims.
DualBerettas
Member
what 'operator' claims...? where did you get that...just curious....
http://scars.com/organization/history.html
http://scars.com/access8.html##trainingstaff
http://scars.com/gunad.html
http://scars.com/SCARS_FAQ.html
Here he proves his legitimacy...
http://scars.com/access6.html
thoughts?
DB
http://scars.com/organization/history.html
http://scars.com/access8.html##trainingstaff
http://scars.com/gunad.html
http://scars.com/SCARS_FAQ.html
Here he proves his legitimacy...
http://scars.com/access6.html
thoughts?
DB
Gray_Fallen
Member
Done mincing words...
One immediate observation of content from the SCARS site -
*** is that?!?!
I'm sorry... but there are very very few people who can realistically kick that high in the speed and rush of a real fight. Most would get knocked on their butt.
Hopefully that’s not what they actually teach people to do in SCARS.
I realize this doesn’t represent anything near and over-view of the system - but man... that’s just messed up.
With most people, I will say 905, they try to kick like that, they will end up on the ground getting (properly) kicked in the head.
Geez... scary. And not because its a "fearsome" technique or anything.
Among things I note is a seriously disturbing (as in BS-O-Meter needle burying) amount of "I've killed more men than you can imagine" type talk. EVERYONE I ever met who talked like that was full of sh*t up to his eyeballs.
EVERYONE I ever met who was a "killer" didn’t talk about it, didn’t use it as a selling point, and didn’t brag on it. Every serious, dedicated and truly FOR REAL soldier, operator, fighter, or regular Joe, who had killed - did not use it as a point of personal chest thumping or verbal masturbation.
I am HIGHLY suspicious of all who use things like that as a mark of pride, to denote skill, or as a selling point.
As a selling point, and a mark of skill - its not. ANYONE can kill someone, its a natural ability we all have, might not be good at it, but anyone can stick something point in another person and kill them, 15 year old Nortenos, Crips, Bluds, etc. Housewives who catch their husband in bed with his secretary and go apesh*t with his hunting rifle. Anyone can be a killer. It doesn’t take skill, it’s not proof of anything. ANYONE can kill. It proves nothing.
As a mark of pride - anyone who is truly proud of killing (anything) needs to seek immediate psychological counseling. When you start enjoying it, in any fashion (and pride is a fashion), you have a serious problem.
The only people who brag about killing other people are A. Liars or B. Seriously disturbed, anti social personalities, psychopaths, etc.
No, my experience is not all that vast - but I have known several killers, and met a lot more liars.
Jerry Peterson may be the exception to this rule I have for myself - but the kind of crap he has to say seriously sets off my alarm bells. Believe it if you wish... I know a guy who always sets up at the gunshows who was in the CIA Phoenix program, you might want to talk to him... and if you believe him, I've got some nice Arizona beachfront for sale you might be interested in.
What is SCARS by well-educated guess? Green or Yellow belt level Kung Fu San Soo, which Peterson has said he studied. Jimmy Woo Kung Fu that pimply faced little punks and pretenders have been learning in strip-malls for a couple decades - hot damn, who'da known all those little twerps were such ultimate commando types.
Well that’s great actually... I am sure there is value in Kung Fu San Soo - but go to a Kung Fu San Soo school, don’t pay thirteen hundred bucks for this crap.
Did SCARS have a SEAL Connection? YOU BET!
SCARS was taught from '89 to the early '90s as part of BUD/S - SEAL Qualification and Training. Why? As a "morale builder - a motivator - that’s all", so sayeth a Navy public affairs officer in 1994 (Source - Full Contact magazine June 1994*). It was never taught on an authorized basis to actual SEALs, only to trainee's, and only as a morale builder.
I already know your next question so save your breath, Who did train the SEALs then, Mr. smarty-pants? Paul Vunak trained SEAL teams from '87 to '90 and has worked with them since.
There is no classified level of SCARS taught to the SEALs, don’t buy into that. Didn’t happen.
Yes SCARS was taught, but it was only taught to trainees - many of who COULDNT HACK IT, as BUD/S regularly proves of many young men who thing their balls are brass and their chests bulletproof but don’t have the mettle. And that’s fine too. But lets me real about what SCARS was to the SEALs.
Is their a classified method, or training material, yeah probably - in all likelihood its simply tapes and transcripts of training sessions with Paul Vunak getting down to the serious hard core nasty and brutal on tape, if there’s anything secret from that time period, that have been filed as "secret" simply because that’s what the military does with things like that. SOP to keep the enemy guessing. Its all material that’s out there in other places, from OPS, from GunSite, from Vunak even. If they have done anything that’s been labeled as "Secret" you don’t see them selling with that do you? NO. Why?
Because there are no frigging secrets - only so many ways to take apart a human being - some of us are better at it than others, that’s why some are instructors of real note, and some only get to PRETEND they are and SUCKER people with KUNG FU that little girls are doing.
If you cant dazzle them withy our brilliance, baffle them withy our bullsh*t - as the old saying goes.
SCARS is no longer at all connected to Naval Special Warfare - wonder why that might be, if it is this super duper take all comers (the Jenna Jameson of CQC?) system, wouldn’t it still be being used? Well yah, it would - if it was better than everything else ever invented, they would be using it - because that’s what spec-war training is about, we can safely assume, being better than the other guy so you can KICK HIS A$$ and KILL HIM better, harder and faster than he can kill you, or you could kill him five years ago.
If SCARS was so great, wouldn’t there be a whole host of former SEALs out there teaching it now? Well, yeah, there would be. BUT THEY ARENT - the former SEALS who are instructors, such as C.J. Caracci and Frank Cucci are teaching material that bears abso-freaking-lutely no relation to SCARS.
I could go on and on... but that’s the nut of it... SCARS was in, for a little while, as a moral booster, Peterson's ego and BS finally were seen for what they were, we can assume, and he was bounced out on his arise.
I think its all pretty obvious given that SCARS isn’t in today, and no one IN THE KNOW, gives two shakes about SCARS other than to be turned off by it.
There may be some valuable things in SCARS - there are things of combative value in baseball for Chris’ sakes - and if applied with the right mindset and a strong forward drive you can probably make use of them (just like you could things from Baseball) - but it is not what it claims to be. It is far from it.
It is over-priced, over-hyped, unrealistic, basic McDojo type material repackaged as a kick butt commando fighting system. Snake Oil salesmen type techniques.
If anyone out there wants to but into it, fine, your choice - but SCARS is more rife with BS than my corrals, and I run a working cattle ranch. Just so you know.
*
One immediate observation of content from the SCARS site -
*** is that?!?!
I'm sorry... but there are very very few people who can realistically kick that high in the speed and rush of a real fight. Most would get knocked on their butt.
Hopefully that’s not what they actually teach people to do in SCARS.
I realize this doesn’t represent anything near and over-view of the system - but man... that’s just messed up.
With most people, I will say 905, they try to kick like that, they will end up on the ground getting (properly) kicked in the head.
Geez... scary. And not because its a "fearsome" technique or anything.
Among things I note is a seriously disturbing (as in BS-O-Meter needle burying) amount of "I've killed more men than you can imagine" type talk. EVERYONE I ever met who talked like that was full of sh*t up to his eyeballs.
EVERYONE I ever met who was a "killer" didn’t talk about it, didn’t use it as a selling point, and didn’t brag on it. Every serious, dedicated and truly FOR REAL soldier, operator, fighter, or regular Joe, who had killed - did not use it as a point of personal chest thumping or verbal masturbation.
I am HIGHLY suspicious of all who use things like that as a mark of pride, to denote skill, or as a selling point.
As a selling point, and a mark of skill - its not. ANYONE can kill someone, its a natural ability we all have, might not be good at it, but anyone can stick something point in another person and kill them, 15 year old Nortenos, Crips, Bluds, etc. Housewives who catch their husband in bed with his secretary and go apesh*t with his hunting rifle. Anyone can be a killer. It doesn’t take skill, it’s not proof of anything. ANYONE can kill. It proves nothing.
As a mark of pride - anyone who is truly proud of killing (anything) needs to seek immediate psychological counseling. When you start enjoying it, in any fashion (and pride is a fashion), you have a serious problem.
The only people who brag about killing other people are A. Liars or B. Seriously disturbed, anti social personalities, psychopaths, etc.
No, my experience is not all that vast - but I have known several killers, and met a lot more liars.
Jerry Peterson may be the exception to this rule I have for myself - but the kind of crap he has to say seriously sets off my alarm bells. Believe it if you wish... I know a guy who always sets up at the gunshows who was in the CIA Phoenix program, you might want to talk to him... and if you believe him, I've got some nice Arizona beachfront for sale you might be interested in.
What is SCARS by well-educated guess? Green or Yellow belt level Kung Fu San Soo, which Peterson has said he studied. Jimmy Woo Kung Fu that pimply faced little punks and pretenders have been learning in strip-malls for a couple decades - hot damn, who'da known all those little twerps were such ultimate commando types.
Well that’s great actually... I am sure there is value in Kung Fu San Soo - but go to a Kung Fu San Soo school, don’t pay thirteen hundred bucks for this crap.
Did SCARS have a SEAL Connection? YOU BET!
SCARS was taught from '89 to the early '90s as part of BUD/S - SEAL Qualification and Training. Why? As a "morale builder - a motivator - that’s all", so sayeth a Navy public affairs officer in 1994 (Source - Full Contact magazine June 1994*). It was never taught on an authorized basis to actual SEALs, only to trainee's, and only as a morale builder.
I already know your next question so save your breath, Who did train the SEALs then, Mr. smarty-pants? Paul Vunak trained SEAL teams from '87 to '90 and has worked with them since.
There is no classified level of SCARS taught to the SEALs, don’t buy into that. Didn’t happen.
Yes SCARS was taught, but it was only taught to trainees - many of who COULDNT HACK IT, as BUD/S regularly proves of many young men who thing their balls are brass and their chests bulletproof but don’t have the mettle. And that’s fine too. But lets me real about what SCARS was to the SEALs.
Is their a classified method, or training material, yeah probably - in all likelihood its simply tapes and transcripts of training sessions with Paul Vunak getting down to the serious hard core nasty and brutal on tape, if there’s anything secret from that time period, that have been filed as "secret" simply because that’s what the military does with things like that. SOP to keep the enemy guessing. Its all material that’s out there in other places, from OPS, from GunSite, from Vunak even. If they have done anything that’s been labeled as "Secret" you don’t see them selling with that do you? NO. Why?
Because there are no frigging secrets - only so many ways to take apart a human being - some of us are better at it than others, that’s why some are instructors of real note, and some only get to PRETEND they are and SUCKER people with KUNG FU that little girls are doing.
If you cant dazzle them withy our brilliance, baffle them withy our bullsh*t - as the old saying goes.
SCARS is no longer at all connected to Naval Special Warfare - wonder why that might be, if it is this super duper take all comers (the Jenna Jameson of CQC?
) system, wouldn’t it still be being used? Well yah, it would - if it was better than everything else ever invented, they would be using it - because that’s what spec-war training is about, we can safely assume, being better than the other guy so you can KICK HIS A$$ and KILL HIM better, harder and faster than he can kill you, or you could kill him five years ago. If SCARS was so great, wouldn’t there be a whole host of former SEALs out there teaching it now? Well, yeah, there would be. BUT THEY ARENT - the former SEALS who are instructors, such as C.J. Caracci and Frank Cucci are teaching material that bears abso-freaking-lutely no relation to SCARS.
I could go on and on... but that’s the nut of it... SCARS was in, for a little while, as a moral booster, Peterson's ego and BS finally were seen for what they were, we can assume, and he was bounced out on his arise.
I think its all pretty obvious given that SCARS isn’t in today, and no one IN THE KNOW, gives two shakes about SCARS other than to be turned off by it.
There may be some valuable things in SCARS - there are things of combative value in baseball for Chris’ sakes - and if applied with the right mindset and a strong forward drive you can probably make use of them (just like you could things from Baseball) - but it is not what it claims to be. It is far from it.
It is over-priced, over-hyped, unrealistic, basic McDojo type material repackaged as a kick butt commando fighting system. Snake Oil salesmen type techniques.
If anyone out there wants to but into it, fine, your choice - but SCARS is more rife with BS than my corrals, and I run a working cattle ranch. Just so you know.
*
DualBerettas
Member
that picture was from on our their more advanced sequences...i think the 'i've killed a lot of people' was taken out of context...he was also demonstrating what people look like as you brutally kill them for pyschological reasons...
DB
DB
Gray_Fallen
Member
Ohh boy... :banghead:
Okay... none-the-less, my point is, and this really isnt a big deal, just thought the pic was goofy and decided to comment, that no one can do that realistically in a fight. I say no one, because well there may be a few, but most folks cant - most folks who only spend a few hours at a few SCARS seminars wont be able to pull that off in real life.
Kicking that high wrecks your balance, it makes you very easy to put on the ground, especially because without a LOT of training in just high kicking your targeting wont be that good. Even if you do make contact with one guy, it makes it real easy for his buddy to do a low-line kick to your other leg, and drop you like a sack of 'spuds, where-upon you can very easily be kicked and stomped to death. SCARS - yes you will have, if you survive.
The "advanced techniques" line is BS. There are no real advanced techniques in any of the good reality based systems - what they have is all out there for everyone to see and learn. Advancement doesnt come in the form of technique, it comes int he form of SKILL.
Why? Because knowing 60 moves, and not being skilled in any of them, will get you killed, where-as knowing 6 moves and being extremely skilled in them, will help you survive.
Thats the difference between reality and bullsh*t.
The bull???? artist is first and foremost in the business of making MONEY - its not about teaching you to be safe, its about lining his pockets - and one of the best ways to do that is the old "Advanced Techniques" line - make people think that there is stuff beyond the basics thats more super duper dangerous, and thus worth more money, so out come their wallets again and poof - they get an hour of crap, and the BS-artist gets your money. He wins, you lose. Even if you believe what he tells you, you still lose.
Secrets, Advanced Techniques, etc. etc. etc. are all the mark of someone trying to sell you something, something not worth jack-squat.
There are no secrets - the basics are all you need. Dont fall for that "advanced techniques" crap - its crap. Advance your skill, not your techniques. Theres only a handful of techniques a guy needs - concepts, my friend, concepts that apply universally, not a new whiz-bang technique for every situation. That screws up your memory, and your skill drops - the more techniques you learn the less skilled you are at each of them, simple fact.
i think the 'i've killed a lot of people' was taken out of context...
Oh? Oh? Tell me how I took it out of context?
And that one use of "I've killed more people than you can image" was just an example, not the only instance - that kind of thing is all over the website.
As I said before - anyone who does that sort of thing I am immediately suspicious of. Its grade-school level posturing and chest thumping. Real fighters, real soldiers, real killers dont do that kind of thing unless they have severe mental disorders, like Charlie Manson. Needless to say, guys like that dont hack it in the military, and the military wont tolerate them as instructors - psychopaths are not, as a general rule of thumb, good people to associate with. So, I doubt Peterson is a psychopath - just another BS artist who talks big and milks one small association with Naval SpecWar for all its worth, to sucker people into giving him money.
I never objected to that.
You can get carried away with it, sure - but I never objected to any of that sort of thing - only to the words being used and the way they were being used. It strikes me as BS - and it strikes a lot of other people that way to.
I've told you what I know about SCARS, what others know about SCARS, and that it is pretty much a bullsh*t system, lots of big talk, a couple made up words, some over the top claims, and very little substance. Yellow belt level Kung Fu San Soo that thousands of little kids and teenagers have learned for at least a couple decades now in hundreds of strip mall Kung Fu studios - its nothing special. SCARS itself is nothing special, it never has been a combat system, never was taught as a combat system - it was fluff, make the trainee's feel good about themselves. Psychological and emotional masturbation based on low level Kung Fu - thats all it ever was.
No Secrets - No advanced techniques - No super-duper combat effectiveness.
If you want to train SCARS, fine. If you want to believe in it, fine.
Its your money - you can be quickly parted with it however you like.
Its your life - you can waste many hours of it and gain very little to defend it, as you wish.
Do as thou wilt, its everyones call what they train.
SCARS is bunk, its a sham, a scam, BS, re-packaged crap, etc. etc. etc. but you can still do it - its your money, your time and your life.
Just remember what SCARS is while you look to it to be your saviour of a martial art - remember you will be deluding yourself if you do.
MY LIFE is worth more to me than looking to some scam like SCARS to defend. My time is more valuable to me than to waste it with BS artists. And my money is better spent on more truly valuable things.
But thats me.
Have fun at SCARS class.
Riiiight....
Okay... none-the-less, my point is, and this really isnt a big deal, just thought the pic was goofy and decided to comment, that no one can do that realistically in a fight. I say no one, because well there may be a few, but most folks cant - most folks who only spend a few hours at a few SCARS seminars wont be able to pull that off in real life.
Kicking that high wrecks your balance, it makes you very easy to put on the ground, especially because without a LOT of training in just high kicking your targeting wont be that good. Even if you do make contact with one guy, it makes it real easy for his buddy to do a low-line kick to your other leg, and drop you like a sack of 'spuds, where-upon you can very easily be kicked and stomped to death. SCARS - yes you will have, if you survive.
The "advanced techniques" line is BS. There are no real advanced techniques in any of the good reality based systems - what they have is all out there for everyone to see and learn. Advancement doesnt come in the form of technique, it comes int he form of SKILL.
Why? Because knowing 60 moves, and not being skilled in any of them, will get you killed, where-as knowing 6 moves and being extremely skilled in them, will help you survive.
Thats the difference between reality and bullsh*t.
The bull???? artist is first and foremost in the business of making MONEY - its not about teaching you to be safe, its about lining his pockets - and one of the best ways to do that is the old "Advanced Techniques" line - make people think that there is stuff beyond the basics thats more super duper dangerous, and thus worth more money, so out come their wallets again and poof - they get an hour of crap, and the BS-artist gets your money. He wins, you lose. Even if you believe what he tells you, you still lose.
Secrets, Advanced Techniques, etc. etc. etc. are all the mark of someone trying to sell you something, something not worth jack-squat.
There are no secrets - the basics are all you need. Dont fall for that "advanced techniques" crap - its crap. Advance your skill, not your techniques. Theres only a handful of techniques a guy needs - concepts, my friend, concepts that apply universally, not a new whiz-bang technique for every situation. That screws up your memory, and your skill drops - the more techniques you learn the less skilled you are at each of them, simple fact.
i think the 'i've killed a lot of people' was taken out of context...
Oh? Oh? Tell me how I took it out of context?
And that one use of "I've killed more people than you can image" was just an example, not the only instance - that kind of thing is all over the website.
As I said before - anyone who does that sort of thing I am immediately suspicious of. Its grade-school level posturing and chest thumping. Real fighters, real soldiers, real killers dont do that kind of thing unless they have severe mental disorders, like Charlie Manson. Needless to say, guys like that dont hack it in the military, and the military wont tolerate them as instructors - psychopaths are not, as a general rule of thumb, good people to associate with. So, I doubt Peterson is a psychopath - just another BS artist who talks big and milks one small association with Naval SpecWar for all its worth, to sucker people into giving him money.
I dont have a problem with that - I never said I did. There are proper teaching methods that yes, show people what fighting looks like, what it looks like to pound on someone - I've done it, my instructors do it, my training partners do it - its the way of the game.
I never objected to that.
You can get carried away with it, sure - but I never objected to any of that sort of thing - only to the words being used and the way they were being used. It strikes me as BS - and it strikes a lot of other people that way to.
I've told you what I know about SCARS, what others know about SCARS, and that it is pretty much a bullsh*t system, lots of big talk, a couple made up words, some over the top claims, and very little substance. Yellow belt level Kung Fu San Soo that thousands of little kids and teenagers have learned for at least a couple decades now in hundreds of strip mall Kung Fu studios - its nothing special. SCARS itself is nothing special, it never has been a combat system, never was taught as a combat system - it was fluff, make the trainee's feel good about themselves. Psychological and emotional masturbation based on low level Kung Fu - thats all it ever was.
No Secrets - No advanced techniques - No super-duper combat effectiveness.
If you want to train SCARS, fine. If you want to believe in it, fine.
Its your money - you can be quickly parted with it however you like.
Its your life - you can waste many hours of it and gain very little to defend it, as you wish.
Do as thou wilt, its everyones call what they train.
SCARS is bunk, its a sham, a scam, BS, re-packaged crap, etc. etc. etc. but you can still do it - its your money, your time and your life.
Just remember what SCARS is while you look to it to be your saviour of a martial art - remember you will be deluding yourself if you do.
MY LIFE is worth more to me than looking to some scam like SCARS to defend. My time is more valuable to me than to waste it with BS artists. And my money is better spent on more truly valuable things.
But thats me.
Have fun at SCARS class.
sanchezero
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 555
OMG, does he really put that in print somewhere?!?!
2Berettas, Morgan's right about those high kicks. I've worked with alot of kungfu and karate blackbelts that were excellent kickers. I'll be conservative (and modest
) with my estimate that about 75% of the time they started tossin' those kicks I tossed them on their azzez. Alotta kicking techniques fail against a strong forward drive.In any case, as has been siad, SCARS is just repackaged kungfu that was repackaged itself. This is how people distinguish themselves to make money in the US. Always gotta be the newest, the best, the secret squirrel...
All Jerry added to this stuff (which isn't awful by any means, but is certainly not at all what it's hyped as) was his autokinetics. This is some goofy term he came up with that basically means that if I hit you a certain way, you will react a certain way. Then I can capitalize on your reaction by hitting you again, since I know in advance what you'll do. Imagine me kicking you in the junk. Immediately, both of your hands fly to your crotch, you bend over abit and assume a cartoonish pigeontoed stance. Your face looks like this:
Because I know this will happen (thru my understanding of autokinetics), I can be ready with my grapefruit spoon to pop out your eyes, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Of course, that's a load of crap. 've kicked people in the 'nads and they've toughed it out, briefly at least. I've punched people in the nose, and they didn't do what I thought either.
Crapola. Save your money. Buy a coupla Bruce Tenger books if you want...
Gray_Fallen
Just curios. Did you ever study under Jimmy H Woo in El Monte, Calif. ? Or perhaps Bill Lasiter, his top instructor?
I am not trying to be sarcastic at all. I very seldom hear folks talk about San Soo. Jimmy was very tough as well as a great instructor.
Just curios. Did you ever study under Jimmy H Woo in El Monte, Calif. ? Or perhaps Bill Lasiter, his top instructor?
I am not trying to be sarcastic at all. I very seldom hear folks talk about San Soo. Jimmy was very tough as well as a great instructor.
Gray_Fallen
Member
Demal - no I havent. I know very little about San Soo, actually. Just that SCARS material is taken from it, with Peterson's own spin and autokinematics or kinetics or whatever thrown in.
If my flip comments about the strip-mall studios are incorrect in regards to San Soo, my apologies - my basic idea with what I said is that whatever yellow belt level is in San Soo, its got to have a certain commonality with other Kung Fu arts that are very widespread in the dojo's that teach them. Just trying to make a point about SCARS, got nothing against San Soo.
(yeah, gotta insert the CYA statement in there before someone points out I am talking out my behind and makes me look like a total moron )
If my flip comments about the strip-mall studios are incorrect in regards to San Soo, my apologies - my basic idea with what I said is that whatever yellow belt level is in San Soo, its got to have a certain commonality with other Kung Fu arts that are very widespread in the dojo's that teach them. Just trying to make a point about SCARS, got nothing against San Soo.
(yeah, gotta insert the CYA statement in there before someone points out I am talking out my behind and makes me look like a total moron
)braindead0
Member
The first thing I think of when looking at that picture, is my oh my what a nice wide open target his groin is...
If course, with a properly submissive "opponent" you can do anything and make it look effective. I see that coming and I'm down, low and aiming for the soft spot ;-)
If course, with a properly submissive "opponent" you can do anything and make it look effective. I see that coming and I'm down, low and aiming for the soft spot ;-)
DualBerettas
Member
guys...i just asked about the experience...i never said scars was the end all to martial arts...i'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do but still don't feel 100% confident with it to defend myself in all situations...i'm simply looking at other unarmed options...just curious about scars...going to a camp gives me more of a look at the system...next time i might ask about Krag Mava (sp)? or whatever...
just looking around guys.
DB
just looking around guys.
DB
Gray_Fallen
Member
Cool
I come of flike I have an agenda at times... and yeah I guess I do, but its not to promote any one thing. There is no one correct way - but there are a lot of very obviously in-correct ways, and dangerous things out there.
One of the most dangerous, IMO, are those people who would, in effect, sell us a bill of goods instead of actually providing us with real workable concepts and material, skills, with which to protect ourselves.
I think its a damn shame and about as much of a sin as is possible in our little world of training and tactical/defense considerations - It makes me mad, it makes me disgusted and it makes me dissapointed. I get a little hot under the collar.
DualBeretta's - I wasnt trying to insult you and I hope I didnt - I just see a lot of people glom onto something and then not let go when faced with real answers, because they arent comfortable admitting they may be back at square one. And a lot of times that just turns into one big cat-fight of a thread and it aint any fun. I've been kicking around these boards for awhile now and had my share of those otherplaces - so I get a little pushy and dogmatic and blunt - but its not personal, not at all.
If you want to make better your abilities to defend yourself, really sharpen your hand to hand skills, I really thing you cant do much better than the material on www.gutterfighting.org (and from www.close-combat-video.com a lot of the same people involved both places, material is the same)
They work a lot from WWII style combatives, but theres other influences too - and it comes out as good stuff. I've always found it to be simple, direct and workable in the widest variety of situations - the concepts are pretty universal, even the individual blows have a wide variety of applications - and I've found a lot of personal "truth" in it. I may do a few things a little differently, but in the end we all do, personal comforts and limitations and some of us can make things work that others cant, etc. but as a basic foundation, and really for fighting what we need more than super advanced stuff is a strong, reliable, foundation, that stuff is gold IMO.
SCARS may have some individually workable things in it too - but as a whole package, my whole thing is, there is a lot of bluff, bluster and BS there, and just dont buy into it.
I've gotten something frome very book I ever read, video I watched or thing I trained, even the bad stuff - sometimes as simple as a good lesson in what not to do, and sometimes adding a new twist onto things I do already - but I never bought into it completely, I took the one or two things I could use, I chucked out the rest and I moved on. Working from a solid foundation of concepts and knowledge, basic ideas about beating on people - it all comes down to just finessing the basics so you are good at them and an apply them well in whatever situations you face.
I come of flike I have an agenda at times... and yeah I guess I do, but its not to promote any one thing. There is no one correct way - but there are a lot of very obviously in-correct ways, and dangerous things out there.
One of the most dangerous, IMO, are those people who would, in effect, sell us a bill of goods instead of actually providing us with real workable concepts and material, skills, with which to protect ourselves.
I think its a damn shame and about as much of a sin as is possible in our little world of training and tactical/defense considerations - It makes me mad, it makes me disgusted and it makes me dissapointed. I get a little hot under the collar.
DualBeretta's - I wasnt trying to insult you and I hope I didnt - I just see a lot of people glom onto something and then not let go when faced with real answers, because they arent comfortable admitting they may be back at square one. And a lot of times that just turns into one big cat-fight of a thread and it aint any fun. I've been kicking around these boards for awhile now and had my share of those otherplaces - so I get a little pushy and dogmatic and blunt - but its not personal, not at all.
If you want to make better your abilities to defend yourself, really sharpen your hand to hand skills, I really thing you cant do much better than the material on www.gutterfighting.org (and from www.close-combat-video.com a lot of the same people involved both places, material is the same)
They work a lot from WWII style combatives, but theres other influences too - and it comes out as good stuff. I've always found it to be simple, direct and workable in the widest variety of situations - the concepts are pretty universal, even the individual blows have a wide variety of applications - and I've found a lot of personal "truth" in it. I may do a few things a little differently, but in the end we all do, personal comforts and limitations and some of us can make things work that others cant, etc. but as a basic foundation, and really for fighting what we need more than super advanced stuff is a strong, reliable, foundation, that stuff is gold IMO.
SCARS may have some individually workable things in it too - but as a whole package, my whole thing is, there is a lot of bluff, bluster and BS there, and just dont buy into it.
I've gotten something frome very book I ever read, video I watched or thing I trained, even the bad stuff - sometimes as simple as a good lesson in what not to do, and sometimes adding a new twist onto things I do already - but I never bought into it completely, I took the one or two things I could use, I chucked out the rest and I moved on. Working from a solid foundation of concepts and knowledge, basic ideas about beating on people - it all comes down to just finessing the basics so you are good at them and an apply them well in whatever situations you face.
Gray_Fallen
Member
Oh yeah... Kelly McCann's hand to hand stuff is very much like from the sites I mentioned above, like what those guys are doing - it has many of the same roots. Its good stuff.
His knife work isnt bad either... a little limited, but for forward grip knife work its solid, and the concepts driving it are as well - lot of connection to Bob Kasper's Kni-Com there, which is solid.
Either one of those, you get a lot of solid material from... and thats what counts, eh?
His knife work isnt bad either... a little limited, but for forward grip knife work its solid, and the concepts driving it are as well - lot of connection to Bob Kasper's Kni-Com there, which is solid.
Either one of those, you get a lot of solid material from... and thats what counts, eh?
DualBerettas
Member
Kelly McCann have a website...
he's not like Hocheim or whatever...i hope...
DB
he's not like Hocheim or whatever...i hope...
DB
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