Anyone know of any penetration tests for a standard .45 Colt load?

[goon]

I've been looking over the "bear" threads lately and the heavy .45 Colt loads are often recommended as a somewhat practical round for defense against big bears. Does anyone have any info on what a standard pressure 250 grain RNFP will penetrate?

 

[sargents1]

I've been looking over the "bear" threads lately and the heavy .45 Colt loads are often recommended as a somewhat practical round for defense against big bears. Does anyone have any info on what a standard pressure 250 grain RNFP will penetrate?

I have heard that a 45colt 250gr rnfp will penetrate very deeply because of the combination of a heavy bullet (with minimal expansion hard cast bullet) at lmoderate speed. My brother, a noted B.S. artist, claims a 45 colt will shoot thru a deer the long way, he also claims a 9mm 115gr fmj could pass thru two people standing one in front of the other. Personally I think both of those claims are, shall we say, 'suspect'. I would NOT consider a 45 Colt best medicine for bears.

A hotloaded 45 Colt is a bit different story. With +p loads you can equal a 44mag, some say you can do better than a 44. Either way I feel that the only handgun I would consider for bears is a 500 S&W Mag (or a 460 S&W).

From what I have heard the best thing for bears is (in order of effectiveness):
1. Common sense, Avoid the beast if possible.
2. large caliber rifle, .338 WIN mag or larger.
3. Bear spray.
4. Play dead/handguns/prayer (tie).

Basically, if you are going to go after anything larger than a mid sized Black bear, bring a rifle and a partner with another rifle. Otherwise make sure to save shot #6 for yourself so you can get it over with before an angry wounded bear makes screaming bloody confetti out of you.

 

[Dave T]

Back when I was experimenting with black powder cartridge guns I got to shoot a duplicate of the 1880s vintage factory load from a 7-1/2" SAA into a friend's baffle box. He was testing 45 ACP +P rounds and my BP 45 Colt penetrated the same number of 1" pine boards as the best load he tried, the old 185g +P Remington JHP. If memory serves both made it through 7 boards and stopped in the 8th. Neither one expanded much at all. The HP filled up with wood. The RNFP got a bit flatter.

My load was a 255g RNFP cast from 1-20 alloy, lubed with SPG and seated over 37g of FFG. I used FFFg to make up for the smaller capacity of modern brass vs the original ballon-head cases that held more powder. My duplicate chronographed from the 7-1/2" Colt at 912 fps average for 5 shots. The original load was listed as a 910 fps round from that barrel length. They called it the "Peacemaker" for a reason. (smile)

Dave

 

[Eaglecreekbrewer]

I have heard that a 45colt 250gr rnfp will penetrate very deeply because of the combination of a heavy bullet (with minimal expansion hard cast bullet) at lmoderate speed. My brother, a noted B.S. artist, claims a 45 colt will shoot thru a deer the long way, he also claims a 9mm 115gr fmj could pass thru two people standing one in front of the other. Personally I think both of those claims are, shall we say, 'suspect'. I would NOT consider a 45 Colt best medicine for bears.

A hotloaded 45 Colt is a bit different story. With +p loads you can equal a 44mag, some say you can do better than a 44. Either way I feel that the only handgun I would consider for bears is a 500 S&W Mag (or a 460 S&W).

From what I have heard the best thing for bears is (in order of effectiveness):
1. Common sense, Avoid the beast if possible.
2. large caliber rifle, .338 WIN mag or larger.
3. Bear spray.
4. Play dead/handguns/prayer (tie).

Basically, if you are going to go after anything larger than a mid sized Black bear, bring a rifle and a partner with another rifle. Otherwise make sure to save shot #6 for yourself so you can get it over with before an angry wounded bear makes screaming bloody confetti out of you.

ROFL, not to be a smart***, but this made me laugh.

A 338 mag? As a starting point?

You do realize that the ave. black bear rarely goes over 300#. Most are around 200

Play dead? rofl. Wives tale

I have shot 5 bears w/ a 44 mag and none of them went over 30 yds.

I have also shot a 400 pounder with a 454 casull that was quartering toward me, went in his front shoulder and was found under his hide in the rear hip, almost 20" of penetration through two major bone groups and lots of flesh, if you think prayer and playing dead is equivalent to that, you have a better connection to the higher power than I do. I rarely recover a bullet that I have shot from my casull into a bear, which tells me I have more than enough penetration, but I also shoot 300 grn bullets in it.

But back to the op.

I regularly shoot heavy 45 Colts +p out of my casull, and although I don't know of any official tests, I would place them right in there with a 44 mag. And anyone who says they reload 45 Colts to 44 mag levels, has no regard for safety, the brass just isn't heavy enough to sustain it, been there done that, it's just pushing the boundary. Which is why I opted for a casull, the best of both worlds in this caliber. I wouldn't feel under powered with +p. My 250 grain 45 Colt loads chrony right at 1200 fps.

I agree with Mr. Keith on this one, they let a lot of blood out and a lot of air in.

 

[Upriver]

Box o' Truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28.htm

 

[Malamute]

Some penetration tests that includes standard 45 Colt loads.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp


There's some information here regarding higher performace 45 Colt loads, including some dicusion of the brass question that was brought up earlier.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

 

[dogngun]

I sometimes shoot my Italian SAA .45 Colt copy with a lead semi-wadcutter at a little over 900 fps. I would not hesitate to carry this combination as a self defense gun - it's a slow reload, but the first 5 opponents are in deep trouble.

mark

 

[sargents1]

ROFL, not to be a smart***, but this made me laugh.

A 338 mag? As a starting point?

You do realize that the ave. black bear rarely goes over 300#. Most are around 200

Play dead? rofl. Wives tale

I have shot 5 bears w/ a 44 mag and none of them went over 30 yds.

I have also shot a 400 pounder with a 454 casull that was quartering toward me, went in his front shoulder and was found under his hide in the rear hip, almost 20" of penetration through two major bone groups and lots of flesh, if you think prayer and playing dead is equivalent to that, you have a better connection to the higher power than I do. I rarely recover a bullet that I have shot from my casull into a bear, which tells me I have more than enough penetration, but I also shoot 300 grn bullets in it.

But back to the op.

I regularly shoot heavy 45 Colts +p out of my casull, and although I don't know of any official tests, I would place them right in there with a 44 mag. And anyone who says they reload 45 Colts to 44 mag levels, has no regard for safety, the brass just isn't heavy enough to sustain it, been there done that, it's just pushing the boundary. Which is why I opted for a casull, the best of both worlds in this caliber. I wouldn't feel under powered with +p. My 250 grain 45 Colt loads chrony right at 1200 fps.

I agree with Mr. Keith on this one, they let a lot of blood out and a lot of air in.

When it comes to handguns and Bears, I am NOT saying it can't be done. I am well aware that many folks do it every year.

Also, I know that most black bears are pretty small compared to brown bears. I would like to point out that I stated "...if you are going after anything bigger than black bears, bring a rifle..." so that would mean you could use a handgun for black bears.

when i wrote that I was picturing someone taking a garden variety 45 Colt or 44mag as protection against a grizzly bear, which is IMHO a mistake. Again, I dont really deal in absolutes, you Could use one of those calibers against a big bear successfully. I just wouldnt recommend it.

BTW, I am glad the my first post made you laugh, that was a large part of the intent.

 

[jad0110]

I've been looking over the "bear" threads lately and the heavy .45 Colt loads are often recommended as a somewhat practical round for defense against big bears. Does anyone have any info on what a standard pressure 250 grain RNFP will penetrate?

Just to be clear, shooting .44 Mag-like heavy 45 Colt loads out of most SAA clones (including the originals) isn't a good idea. The Ruger "Old" Vacquero (for which there really are "Ruger Only" loads), as well as the Blackhawks are fine. But the New Vacquero, Uberti Cattlemans, Beretta Stampedes, etc really should be limited to, approximately 250 grains and 1,000 fps or less.

As for rifles against brown and grizzlies, I live on the east coast, so I wouldn't know from my own experience. But my supervisor lived and hunted in Alaska for years. Though he moose hunted with a .300 Win Mag bolt gun, he said you'd be surprised how many locals in his area stuck with the tried and true 30-30 lever action for hunting and hiking. Only in the last 25 years or so have bears suddenly required magnum cartridges to stop, though as far as I know, bears haven't gotten any bigger and aren't yet duct taping trauma plates to themselves in an effort to stop .a 338 Lapua .

 

[Eaglecreekbrewer]

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm[/url]

I have read the information on the 45 Colt loadings and the brass before. And I thought he made good points. Like I said, been there, done that. I shoot a Ruger SRH in 454 Casull, so I know I have plenty of strength in my gun. But while working up loads, I seen some serious brass issues when working toward velocities above about 1300FPS and higher. I was using only new cases while doing these workups and many weren't usable after the first load. Hairline fractures just above the web, some serious stretching, serious sticking and that "bulge", etc. It just wasn't something I was comfortable with, nor would I ever recommend it considering what I was seeing. But, in this world many different outcomes can result from very small changes when doing this kind of stuff as we all know. So, although the author didn't seem to see the same issues I did, they may have been perfectly fine in the guns he was using. Like all things reloading, every weapon is different, and need approached as such. If I had written that article, it would have had a very different outcomes.

In the end this was my conclusion.
Would I push this if my only choice was a 45 Colt in a Blackhawk? Nope
Because I can easily obtain the desired results in a rather mild load from the 454 and have a huge safety barrier as opposed to "living on the ragged edge". Getting the right weapon for the job was just to easy to justify it.

 

[goon]

Thanks. After thinking this over some... I think if I ever need a gun for defense against anything bigger than the black bears we have in PA, I'll go with a rifle or a 12 gauge with slugs.