anyone NOT flare/crimp on 9mm?

[dlzigjr]

Let me explain in a little more detail:

I am reloading my first 9mm (have loaded 40S&W, 38 special, 44Mag, and 45Long Colt) rounds, and my load is using mixed range brass, titegroup, and wolf primers.

I have several lee presses (single stage) and I'm using the deluxe LEE dies. The cases have been sized, deprimed, tumbled. I'm NOT flaring the case mouths and am not having trouble seating the bullet (precision delta 124gr FMJ), as long as I'm careful and take my time lining things up. After loading 50 rounds this way without difficulty, and the case mouth seems to be gripping the bullet nicely....they all drop in with a nice thunk in my XD9's barrel (removed from gun) so they seem to be headspacing correctly.

So my question is, do I really need to 'taper crimp' since i'm not belling or flaring the case mouth to accept the bullet?

 

[slim 67]

I don't flare or crimp when loading berry's as long as the case mouth is within spec.

 

[readyeddy]

Sounds like there's no need. How do they shoot?

 

[Potatohead]

Talk to Gamestalker. This is his forte Last I heard, he does not bell or taper crimp.

 

[Rule3]

You don't have to if all is going as you stated. How did you load the 40SW?

A very slight flair just makes it easier and faster to seat the bullet.

 

[Blue68f100]

The purpose of the TC is to remove the flare. Since you did not flare, no need to.

 

[noylj]

If you don't expand the case (not the flare section, but the expander that brings the case ID closer to bullet diameter), you can have the bullet seat crooked and bulge the case at the base of the bullet where the case wall is thinnest. Of course, if you use the Lee FCD, you will never know, but you will have LESS accurate ammunition.
Just like bottleneck cases, where the case mouth expansion (again, NOT the case mouth flare) is done by the expander spindle in the sizing die, with proper case expansion and using jacketed bullets, then no case mouth flare is needed.
This should all be covered in your reloading manuals that you have read several times.

 

[jmorris]

The GSI bullet feeders I use hold the bullet as the case comes up and that allows me to get away with little to no bell vs when I don't use them.

This is what the case looks like right before and after seating coated or just plain lead bullets.



I still run a FCD, needed or not.

 

[dlzigjr]

Thanks for the replies.

Readyedy, I haven't shot them yet, just loaded today.

Rule 3, the .40 was my first reloading effort and was a failure. I didn't understand the head spacing on the case mouth, and although the crimp I put on them looked beautiful, they did not cycle well at all. That was a lesson learned. I also was loading 180gr TC lead bullets and don't think I could seat these without a little flaring.

Blue, thanks and that was the conclusion I was coming up with...just needed it confirmed.

Noyli, not sure exactly what your saying. I have not reloaded any bottleneck cases yet, just pistol rounds. If you are equating expanding with the resizing step, then I do that religiously on every case (I realize you are not referring to flaring the case mouth). I guess I was sort of under the impression that during resizing, it was more compressing the case diameter down (taking out the expansion of the case that occurs during firing) to factory spec, than expanding. I'm probably overthinking it anyway, as long as cases are resized to fit bullet diameter with a good fit it should be good.

Again, thanks all for the replies!

 

[dlzigjr]

Jmorris, thanks for the picture....great visual (and great pic). Having the bullet held fixed would definitely be easier, as that was the tricky part for me...holding the bullet square while bringing the ram up but it worked. Definitely easier than two more single stage press steps would be for me ( flaring die and then a FCD to take the flare back out)

 

[dickttx]

Yes, the sizing die sizes the case down. However, the expander die expands a short portion of the case neck back up to a few thousands under the bullet diameter to provide the necessary tension to hold the bullet in place. Some expanders also include a step just above the expander portion to flair the case mouth for easier bullet insertion. Usually for lead bullets. FMJ bullets usually need no flair, or beveling the case mouth will provide enough.

 

[GLOOB]

The sizing die sizes the case mouth via the outer diameter. The flare die sizes the inner diameter, which is the part that's important for consistent neck tension. This is one of the reasons why rifle sizing dies have a ball expander for putting on the final neck/mouth dimension, rather than simply relying on sizing to the right diameter to begin with. So you can get by without flaring so long as your brass is within a certain range of thickness that works with your sizing die. If you run into thicker cases, you may run into issues. And if your cases are too thin, you might have a harder time detecting them (I find it much easier to detect thin case mouths during the flaring step, rather than seating.)

Also, softer bullets like Berry's plated might get swaged down by a case that isn't flared. Again, depends on your sizing die and your brass.

 

[dlzigjr]

Thanks for the input! I can see how the softer bullets would need it for sure. I have a box of berrys plated for .38 special and definitely had to bell the case mouth to get things started and avoid shaving the bullet (plus roll crimp w/ lee fcd.

 

[gamestalker]

This is a topic I have addressed multiple times, so I'l tell you what I have experienced.
Way back when the .40 cal. came into production I had some Lee 10mm dies thinking they would suffice. Everything worked ok, except that I discovered the powder through die wouldn't bell the case mouths, as it was a bit deeper, being that it was intended for the longer 10mm casing. So I thought that if I did a little bit of chamfer to the inside of the case mouths on those .40's, I could just seat straight up without any bell or crimp necessary. the chamfer allowed me to easily align the bullet with the case mouth, and it has worked like a champ for me for a very log time. Since that day I have not belled or crimped a single 9mm or .40 case, and have also excluded belling of all other brass as well from my process. I have not had any issues with set back, as I truly think this method delivers maximum obtainable neck tension. Love it, I am getting extended case life now also as a result. I don't know if this will work with non jacketed projectiles though, might cause shaving, as I only work with jacketed.

GS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's almost impossible to seat a plated bullet without a chance of shaving without at least a slight bell on the case mouth.

You said you are using Lee Deluxe dies. If you're using the powder through die that's also an expansion die so you might be belling the mouth slightly without knowing.

 

[noylj]

As stated above, a real expander die does two things:
it expands the case ID (hopefully to 0.001-0.002" under bullet diameter) and flares/bells the case mouth. Many skip the expander and simply use a "powderfunnel" that ONLY flares the case mouth. Lead and plated bullets can be swaged down, damaged, and lose accuracy being squeezed into a too small case neck. Jacketed bullets can usually withstand this better.
All I'm saying is if you don't EXPAND the case neck to just under the bullet diameter, you will most likely damage the bullet or seat it crooked. If you decide to expand and not flare, that is fine, but you could still damage a bullet.
Since bottleneck cases have a neck that is quite a bit smaller than the body of the case, the expander is built into the sizing die as an expander ball/spud/whatever it is called.

 

[gamestalker]

I have pulled jacketed bullets that I have seated without belling and all have measure the same, none were damaged. I did damage some XTP's, .357, but that was something that was caused by the colet puller, kinetic puller didn't damage them at all. As I stated, I wouldn't think this would work for other type projectiles, shaving and deformation risk.

It has worked flawlessly for me for a very long time, to each his own.

GS

 

[au_prospector]

Hey thats a good idea, pull a couple and post a picture of the pulled bullets.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Been loading some 9mm Berry's plated 124 gr. flatpoints with new RCBS dies. I am not able to get the bullet started without damaging it/scraping the plating off unless I flare *just* the slightest amount....just enough to get the bullet to sit in a case without cocking sideways.

I then taper crimp *just* enough to push the flare back down. If you don't need to flare to seat without damaging the bullet, I wouldn't flare.

VooDoo

 

[jmorris]

Hey thats a good idea, pull a couple and post a picture of the pulled bullets.

This is a coated bullet seated and fired using the setup I posted in #8 above. It was about .0015" over as I didn't resize after I coated it. It was just a test.