AR 5.56mm combined precision distance and close quarters sighting options

[jmorris]

I had to offset my reticle in order to shoot tight groups at 100 yards when using my Swampfox Arrowhead 1-8 scope. There wa just no way of shooting a tight group at 100 with the dot centered since it covered the center of the target.

I have done that a lot with red dots using the edge at 12:00 at the aim point, not the entire dot. Has allowed me to shoot smaller groups than the size of the dot (Under 2MOA group size, using a 2 MOA dot).

 

[jmorris]

4 or 6X is more than enough scope to make hits at 400 yards.

I would agree if the targets are large enough.

This is a look through a bushnell 1-4 set at 4x the targets are 300 yards away, the larger white rectangle to the left, is a 4’x8’ sheet of chroplast.

458 socom 300yd sub

www.youtube.com

Your going to go through some ammo shooting something like a container of tannerite though and most people wouldn’t call that “precision shooting“ at such short distances.

Its just easier to aim smaller with more magnification.

3700 fps at 300 yards

www.youtube.com

 

[mavracer]

My 14.7" has a Primary Arms 1-8 with the ACSS reticle that works well on that gun.
The BDC is almost spot on with 62gn to 500 yds according to Strelok.
200 yds is the most I've shot it though.

My 18" has a NF 2.5-10x42 that works for me.
With a 1.93" NF mount it weights about an ounce more than than the 1-8 and 1.6" Swampfox mount.
2.5 works 25 yds and out for me, both eyes open.

I was looking at an offset red dot but that's not needed for what I do, I have more than enough time to spin the objective, parallax and turret.
Or use the BDC on full size targets with the 1-8.
On 1 power at 25 yds I just put the Chevron on top of the target and make it wear a hat, the 200 yd holdover. 8 power is the 400 line.
Easy enough to remember for me.

That's the reason I moved away from BDC reticle. It seems most are close for 55 or 62 gr ammo but are pretty far off if one is using 75s or 77s which I shoot a lot of.
Since I got my first FFP LPVO with a MIL based reticle life is simpler as now my LPVO use the same thought processes as my long range ones and I've since switched most everything to FFP with MIL reticles.

 

[LiveLife]

FFP with MIL testicles.

I didn't know they made scopes with "testicles" ... Learn something new everyday.

 

[BreechFace]

I didn't know they made scopes with "testicles" ... Learn something new everyday.

Scope nuts…they provide windage reads at the shooter.

 

[jmr40]

Don't overthink this. Find a 1-4X or maybe a 1-6X scope you can live with. I find anything on 1X to be the best option for up close fast shooting. Better than irons and dot sights. It isn't hard to shoot 1 MOA with 1X magnification per 100 yards. You CAN shoot 1" groups at 400 yards with a scope set on 4X if it has fine crosshairs. You probably won't be able to shoot true precision 1/2 MOA or better, but how much precision do you need.

Everything is a tradeoff. Thicker crosshairs are easier to pick up especially in low light. Irons are the lightest followed by dot sights. If weight is the major concern, then one of those may be the best option. A scope is the heaviest and most expensive, and the more X's you have the more weight and cost.

Ask yourself where the vast majority of shots will be taken. For me a lighter weight 1-4X without a lot of useless features is the best compromise. I figure 4X is plenty for man sized target at any range I'll be shooting.

 

[mavracer]

I didn't know they made scopes with "testicles" ... Learn something new everyday.

Autocorrect has a serious sense of humor, I almost left it alone lol.

 

[powermad]

Curious about glass quality, reticle isn't optimal, but many aren't.

Pretty much the same glass quality of all chinamart scopes.
This one looks interesting for a budget China scope, about $450
Fiber optic dot and German glass.

Continental x6 1-6x24i Fiber Dot Tactical Riflescope-Vector Optics - Practical Solutions in Rifle Scope & Red Dot Sight

Fiber Dot Tactical LPVO Scope, > 90% Light Transmission, Extra-Low Dispersion. True 1x Power Two Eyes Open, True 6x Zoom, 30mm Monotube, Resettable and Lockable Turret.

www.vectoroptics.com

 

[powermad]

That's the reason I moved away from BDC reticle. It seems most are close for 55 or 62 gr ammo but are pretty far off if one is using 75s or 77s which I shoot a lot of.
Since I got my first FFP LPVO with a MIL based reticle life is simpler as now my LPVO use the same thought processes as my long range ones and I've since switched most everything to FFP with MIL reticles.

Yep, I just stick with 55 and 62gn for the 1-8 and fling 77's with the 18"
If things ever settle down the 1-8 will get replaced with an NX8 1-8 with an MOA reticle.

 

[mavracer]

Yep, I just stick with 55 and 62gn for the 1-8 and fling 77's with the 18"
If things ever settle down the 1-8 will get replaced with an NX8 1-8 with an MOA reticle.

That'd be a little step up lol. Just FYI Midway has some open box NX8s for under 1400.
BDC are pretty easy to figure with Streloc, I still have a Leupold VX-HOG on my 350 legend and I took the screenshot like you did and printed it and taped it to one of my mags.

 

[Charlie98]

They make offset pins to use a small pin upper on a big pin lower.

I bought a set of those... mine did not work well. That was when I decided, for the cost, to just leave my H-bar the way it is (it's worth more that way, anyway...) and build a dedicated rifle for what I wanted. Aside from the horrible factory Colt trigger, the H-bar is a solid rifle in it's own right.

 

[lionking]

Don't overthink this. Find a 1-4X or maybe a 1-6X scope you can live with. I find anything on 1X to be the best option for up close fast shooting. Better than irons and dot sights. It isn't hard to shoot 1 MOA with 1X magnification per 100 yards. You CAN shoot 1" groups at 400 yards with a scope set on 4X if it has fine crosshairs. You probably won't be able to shoot true precision 1/2 MOA or better, but how much precision do you need.

Everything is a tradeoff. Thicker crosshairs are easier to pick up especially in low light. Irons are the lightest followed by dot sights. If weight is the major concern, then one of those may be the best option. A scope is the heaviest and most expensive, and the more X's you have the more weight and cost.

Ask yourself where the vast majority of shots will be taken. For me a lighter weight 1-4X without a lot of useless features is the best compromise. I figure 4X is plenty for man sized target at any range I'll be shooting.

I'll try to but I do like to put thought into things especially when money is involved. Per this thread I already gave up the idea of mounting a scope on a carry handle of a A2. I do have a 20" A4 also that I have been using with carry handle so far, I could take the handle off and mount a optic as long as it clears the front triangle sight. USMC used a VCOG for a while that would be a option except for the fact it costs $2000, so I 'll check out some LPVO and see if it fancies me. Honestly with iron sights as long as I'm stationary and the target is also it is all but certain I won't miss at 100 yds, at 200 yds still a highly probable but past that it's questionable.

 

[mavracer]

I do have a 20" A4 also that I have been using with carry handle so far, I could take the handle off and mount a optic as long as it clears the front triangle sight.

I can see the front sight clearly at 1X doesn't really bother me though as it basically just a cowitness. Once you get above about 2x it disappears.

 

[lionking]

I can see the front sight clearly at 1X doesn't really bother me though as it basically just a cowitness. Once you get above about 2x it disappears.View attachment 1176242View attachment 1176244

This might be the way I go more than likely only I'll add a bipod. I assume the cross hair /circle can be used as a sort of dot/holo type for close if need be.

 

[mavracer]

This might be the way I go more than likely only I'll add a bipod. I assume the cross hair /circle can be used as a sort of dot/holo type for close if need be.

Yes this is my 1-8x US Optic at 1X with illumination on
This is reticle at 8X

 

[TonyAngel]

I went through what you're going through a couple of years ago. I have very mixed feelings about LPVO's, although I did just buy a Vortex PST to put on top of my Ruger American Ranch in 7.62X39.

LPVOs by definition and design are a conglomeration of compromises. Most come with some sort of tacticool reticle that are designed with a specific use in mind and usually sacrifice a bit of precision in favor of speed. In all of my hunting around, I found a few that lend themselves to a general purpose role a bit better than others.

They all have a reticle based on a simple cross hair with good illumination.

1. Steiner P4xi 1-4x with P3TR reticle. Excellent little scope that is light with excellent glass. The downside is that they are stupid expensive. If you can find one used at $400-$500, you might want to consider it. Just make sure it comes with the throw lever.

2. Vortex Gen 2 PST 1-6X. This thing punches high at its price point. Better than average glass. Huge view at 1x. This is probably the best bang for the buck, but at 22oz, it's a bit heavy. There's a reason it's been around so long and cabelas has a sale on them for around $500.

3. Vortex Razor Gen 2 E 1-6X. This is a PST on steroids. It's everything the PST is and then some and an ounce or 2 lighter.

4. Trijicon Credo HX/Delta Stryker HD 1-6X. Kinda like the PST but smaller field of view with slightly better glass. A plus is that they are lighter.

If you want a really flat image at 1X and a relatively forgiving eyebox at max magnification with better than average glass, any of the above will do you. They are at least worth a look.

Personally, having been through more than half a dozen scopes in my hunt for a good general purpose optic for an AR, I landed on two. Both are ACOGs. A TA31 and a TA 11, both with crosshair reticles in red. I know that many, if not most say "my eye picks up green better" and I have to agree that my eye picks up green better too, when I'm looking through scopes in my bedroom or out at the range, but when you get out into real, natural surroundings, you'd be surprised at what green will blend in with. I've found myself turning up the brightness to see the dot better only to lose my target in the bloom of the dot.

Yes, they are low magnification, but the clarity of the glass let's you see more than you think you'd be able to. The glass is some of the clearest I've even seen, rivaling some of the better european scopes.

 

[HKGuns]

What do folks know/think about this Sig?

Sig Sauer Tango MSR 1-6x24mm Illuminated MSR-BDC6 SFP Black Riflescope w/Alpha-MSR Cantilevered Black Mount SOT61000

Sig Sauer Tango MSR 1-6x24mm Illuminated MSR-BDC6 SFP Black Riflescope w/Alpha-MSR Cantilevered Black Mount SOT61000 For Sale at EuroOptic.com. This Sig Sauer Rifle scope is a perfect addition to an AR-type platform. SHIPS FREE!

www.eurooptic.com

I ordered one as I've been curious about these SIG scopes for quite some time. I ended up putting it on my 458 SOCOM that previously had a Romeo 4XDR.

I only mounted it last night, so these are my initial impressions.

- The scope is not mounted at the factory, you need to mount it yourself
- The mount is decent, not great and about what you'd expect for an inclusive deal
- The turrets are capped and the illumination knob on the left takes some positive force to move to the next value. (A good thing I think)
- Illumination seems bright enough SIG includes the 2023 battery as most others do
- Reticle isn't my favorite, it has large bars coming in from the sides which I think will obscure some vision
- Glass is good, not great but certainly useable and considering the price point I'm satisfied (I'd still take an RT6 over this one so far but will keep an open mind)
- Scope seem light, I'd need to check the specs, but it seems extrodinarily light not a rock at all
- Eye releif is decent, even at 6X - Will know more once I get some time behind it

Overall, quite a nice scope at that price point. Very glad you posted it, triggering me to look at it and purchase.

 

[TonyAngel]

Ok, up close and precision? For that role I run a 14.5" Criterion Core barrel with a 2-10X scope on top with an adjustable parallax with a red dot mounted on top of that, but it ain't fast, not as fast as my 12.5 with a red dot on a 1.93 mount and it ain't as precision as my 20" build with a 5-25X on top.

If banging torso size steel is what you're calling precision shooting, then an LPVO COULD do the trick, but I've always found the lack of a parallax adjustment to be a detriment to shooting longer ranges, meaning beyond 300 or 400 yards.

If you want a Jack of all trades, you're gonna have to make compromises.

 

[Walkalong]

If you want a Jack of all trades, you're gonna have to make compromises.

Exactly

 

[taliv]

I started this thread to address these issues a couple years ago.

LPVO vs high mag scope and offset red dot

There's been a lot of discussion on several forums about LPVO and offset optics lately, so I wanted to take some pics. I've recently built a new SPR style AR with 18" barrel, using a NF 4-16x ATACR and offset RMR, with the intent to replace my aging 18" build that sports a NF 1-8x ATACR aka...

www.thehighroad.org

It has a lot of through scope pics using a lpvo 1-8x (nightforce atacr) and a 4-16x with offset red dot (nf and RMR)

Hopefully it helps.

However for precision shooting at 300-400 I’d say confident sub moa shots need at least 12x preferably 16x. If you’re looking to hold a man size target you can do that with a red dot. I used to be about 8 for 10 with a 4x acog on 10” steel at 450yd.

 

[benEzra]

My own choice would be a 16” barrel and either a LVPO, or a 2MOA (or smaller) red dot plus a flip-to-side magnifier, depending on whether you were prioritizing the 200-400 use case vs. 100-and-under. An 18” or 20” barrel might also work fine, but the extra length doesn’t make it more accurate, and the difference in drop won’t be that noticeable until past 400 yards.

 

[taliv]

While the drop may not make much difference those 18-20” rifle gas systems are soft smooth shooters which for precision shooting can be helpful staying on glass to see impacts or trace which is harder with the tiny bullets.