ar lowers
- Thread starter lxd55
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redneck2
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dprice3844444
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http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showt...rson-Mfg-AM-15-Stripped-Lower-Receivers-48.99
for this price,it's not worth the expense and effort.
for this price,it's not worth the expense and effort.
The sell because some want to be able to say they did it. It's not because it's easy, they have great machining skills, or that it's cheaper.
I wouldn't pay more for a rifle with an 80%, I would just about discount the gun the entire amount of a new lower due to concerns with it not being anodized, the quality of the machining, etc. No warranty or potential return for not working right, either. A mag well a tad to0 big or small, issues with parts fitting etc make them less than desireable.
So, if you can buy a finished lower for less, even including the FFL transfer fee, and get one done to milspec, why buy an 80% and do all the work? Notoriety - when you show it off, it doesn't have any markings and you can claim the BATF doesn't know about it.
In that regard, the BATF can't tell you where the straw purchased guns that went to Mexico in Fast and Furious are, either. Moot point whether it has a number or not. If someone is really worried they will come to take your guns, it's more important how you store them.
Oh, btw, someone now sells a 0% lower. Yep, just a big square chunk of alloy. You get to do it all.
I wouldn't pay more for a rifle with an 80%, I would just about discount the gun the entire amount of a new lower due to concerns with it not being anodized, the quality of the machining, etc. No warranty or potential return for not working right, either. A mag well a tad to0 big or small, issues with parts fitting etc make them less than desireable.
So, if you can buy a finished lower for less, even including the FFL transfer fee, and get one done to milspec, why buy an 80% and do all the work? Notoriety - when you show it off, it doesn't have any markings and you can claim the BATF doesn't know about it.
In that regard, the BATF can't tell you where the straw purchased guns that went to Mexico in Fast and Furious are, either. Moot point whether it has a number or not. If someone is really worried they will come to take your guns, it's more important how you store them.
Oh, btw, someone now sells a 0% lower. Yep, just a big square chunk of alloy. You get to do it all.
Frosty Dave
Member
There is no precise or legal definition of "80%." In practice, BATFE defines the legal limit of "80%" on a case by case basis as a lower with no machining done in the fire control pocket.
Most suppliers of "80%" pieces also supply some package of fixtures and/or cutters to do the remaining work at home and often the fixture is proprietary to their own scheme of tooling and ability they expect you to have, for instance, they may advertise that you can finish it out with a drill press.
If you're interested in rolling your own, you'll need to shop around and compare the material, fixture and tooling packages available. One supplier might offer the piece and a fixture at a good price, but leave it to you to purchase the drill bits and maybe an end mill. If you have most of those already, maybe that's a good price. If you don't, a package with those included might be more attractive to you.
Most suppliers of "80%" pieces also supply some package of fixtures and/or cutters to do the remaining work at home and often the fixture is proprietary to their own scheme of tooling and ability they expect you to have, for instance, they may advertise that you can finish it out with a drill press.
If you're interested in rolling your own, you'll need to shop around and compare the material, fixture and tooling packages available. One supplier might offer the piece and a fixture at a good price, but leave it to you to purchase the drill bits and maybe an end mill. If you have most of those already, maybe that's a good price. If you don't, a package with those included might be more attractive to you.
The main attraction to the "80% lower" is that it is not considered a firearm therefore your name doesn't get recorded (theoretically) in an FFL book. You are allowed to make up to 5 (I think 5) firearms a year for your own personal use without a license and you are not required to serialize it or report it unless you sell it (Federally speaking, state/local laws may vary). This is appealing to people fearing confiscation.
Keep in mind that if someone finishes an 80% lower, they are not allowed to sell it unless they have an 07 FFL. The ATF allows individuals to manufacture firearms for personal use only with no sales allowed only inheritance. So, for the person above talking about buying a finished 80% lower, you would lose the benefit of it being off the books because an 07 ffl would need to do a form 4473 to transfer the completed rifle anway..
AlexanderA
Member
I suspect that the majority of the incomplete lower receivers sold are never completed. People simply buy them to lay aside until The Day (whatever that means). Otherwise, this path is not cost-effective, either in terms of time or money. It's a market that feeds on paranoia, whether that paranoia is justified or not. Think of it as a continuing confiscation panic.
Jackal
Member
Its strictly for hobbyists. There is no practical advantage over buying a $50 finished lower.
Willie Sutton
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"Keep in mind that if someone finishes an 80% lower, they are not allowed to sell it unless they have an 07 FFL"
No.
They can be sold, but you cannot manufacture them with the *intent* to sell them. If you make a few for your own education and enjoyment, and then later decicde you want to move on to another area of interest, you can sell them like any other firearm.
Willie
.
No.
They can be sold, but you cannot manufacture them with the *intent* to sell them. If you make a few for your own education and enjoyment, and then later decicde you want to move on to another area of interest, you can sell them like any other firearm.
Willie
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The_Next_Generation
Member
Jackal, I disagree. There is a multitude of reasons why someone would want to build a rifle off a lower that the ATF will never know about. Also, where are you finding finished lowers for $50?
Jackal
Member
PSA, everytime they have a sale.
And all these "reasons" suggest potential illegal use.
Correct
And all these "reasons" suggest potential illegal use.
Wrong
back in tha day, stripped lowers from reputable companies cost about $80 and an 80% lower could be had for maybe $15-20. Back then, it made sense, if you wanted to do something on the cheap and had a bit of machining skills, which more people had.
today, it's pretty ridiculous. i can't imagine paying more money for something that's not complete. paying extra to keep your name out of an FFL log is totally ridiculous.
today, it's pretty ridiculous. i can't imagine paying more money for something that's not complete. paying extra to keep your name out of an FFL log is totally ridiculous.
Jackal
Member
Nailed it, though the tinfoil hat/Faraday cage folks wont agree.
Warp people are free to do as they like. I'm not insulting them. People do ridiculous things all the time just because they want to. More power to them. It's their money.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's still ridiculous and the new-to-firearms folks that read this should hear it and have the opportunity to educate themselves. If they want to believe its easier to build your own than do a ftf transfer, or that having your name in a bound book somehow makes it logistically feasible for the gov to confiscate then fine. I'm not going to argue.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's still ridiculous and the new-to-firearms folks that read this should hear it and have the opportunity to educate themselves. If they want to believe its easier to build your own than do a ftf transfer, or that having your name in a bound book somehow makes it logistically feasible for the gov to confiscate then fine. I'm not going to argue.
I was under the impression that face to face transfers were illegal to many Americans, such as California. Or are the guys on Calguns wrong?
Frosty Dave
Member
It's been said that "No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy."
Likewise, no plan to save money by building your own AR-15 lower survives first contact with the search terms of "80% lower for sale."
Yet people make them anyway and if the number of public threads in the arfcom build-it-yourself forum, home machinist sites and youtube are any indication, not many are making an effort to hide their projects from Sauron's watchful eye.
Home builders may want the satisfaction of saying "I made this" or to trim the fences from an unanodized piece and replicate the look of an M16A1 or earlier lower for their retro rifle.
Most people don't want to make their own gun, desktop steam engine or bucket-T street rod, but those of us that do are rarely looking to save money or hide what we've done.
Likewise, no plan to save money by building your own AR-15 lower survives first contact with the search terms of "80% lower for sale."
Yet people make them anyway and if the number of public threads in the arfcom build-it-yourself forum, home machinist sites and youtube are any indication, not many are making an effort to hide their projects from Sauron's watchful eye.
Home builders may want the satisfaction of saying "I made this" or to trim the fences from an unanodized piece and replicate the look of an M16A1 or earlier lower for their retro rifle.
Most people don't want to make their own gun, desktop steam engine or bucket-T street rod, but those of us that do are rarely looking to save money or hide what we've done.
warp, keep changing the context until you're not wrong.
frosty, certainly the satisfaction of DIY and making your own stuff is great. but if someone really wanted to do that, why start with something 80% complete? why not start at 0%? starting from 80% just gives you the satisfaction of saying "I made 20% of this"
frosty, certainly the satisfaction of DIY and making your own stuff is great. but if someone really wanted to do that, why start with something 80% complete? why not start at 0%? starting from 80% just gives you the satisfaction of saying "I made 20% of this"
HoosierQ
Member
There it is!warp, keep changing the context until you're not wrong.
frosty, certainly the satisfaction of DIY and making your own stuff is great. but if someone really wanted to do that, why start with something 80% complete? why not start at 0%? starting from 80% just gives you the satisfaction of saying "I made 20% of this"
Frosty Dave
Member
Why not indeed? My first try was an 80% piece and once I gained the confidence that I could make a working gun by doing 20%, my next one was from a 0% raw forging. The real diehard builder might have started by digging his own bauxite, but I chose the forging.
Then I retrofit a machine tool with motors and drivers and wrote my own CNC program from scratch. When I was done, I felt like I could claim "I made 110% of this lower."
But the percentage claimed isn't the only reason. The retro guys don't necessarily want to do 100% of the cutting when their goal is to duplicate a 1970 rifle. Some of them also want to start with an unmarked piece and get a custom roll mark like "HYDRA MATIC DIVISION OF GENERAL MOTORS" done by one of the job shops.
Others would love to build from a raw forging but shy away from cutting the mag well, so an 80% is as big a bite as they want to chew.
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