AR pistol NFA question

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Lennyjoe

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I know AR pistols do not require an NFA stamp as long as I don't have the lower "butt stock capable" which would make it an SBR, but am wondering, if I put a suppressor on the 10" barrel, am I in trouble with the ATF?

I was entertaining the idea of building a pistol model in either .223 or 6.8 SPC and want to make sure I don't break any laws.
 
If you have a registered suppressor, then certainly you can add it to whatever gun you'd like.

Maybe I'm not understanding the question. There isn't a maximum length limit...

And the "butt stock capable" question is pretty funny in that it appears you really do have to actually have a buttstock on it to be likely to end up in trouble. You can use whatever tube you want.
 
Yes, I will have a registered suppressor shortly, once the stamp comes in.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crossing any lines by screwing the suppressor on.

I was giggling when I wrote "butt stock capable" as I knew the answer but thought I'd throw some humor in there...
 
As Sam says, there's no maximum or minimum legal limits for the length of the barrel on a pistol. So if your AR15 is a pistol, it can have a 7.5" barrel or a 20" barrel. Doesn't matter. Adding the legal suppressor doesn't have any legal effect on the pistol.

Aaron
 
Theoretically you could be accused of constructive possession if you had your pistol and a stock "in close proximity" that could "serve no other purpose". As long as you own an upper with 16" barrel you can own a stock. That said, a pistol buffer tube or a rifle buffer tube (can use a spacer on a carbine) with the threads drilled out give you an extra layer of legal protection.

If your pistol is less than 26" OAL you cannot have a vertical foregrip or it would be considered an AOW.

Mike
 
I doubt they would ever or could ever prosecute because I have the items capable of committing a crime.

Would they prosecute? Maybe not.

Could they prosecute? Absolutely.

Your examples are bad ones. A better example would be:

"There's a bag of cocaine under the passenger seat of my friend's car I'm riding in. Can I be charged with possession even though it's not actually on my person?" The answer, of course, is yes, and it happens all the time.

The concept of "constructive possession" means that you don't have actual possession of contraband, but have the ability to exercise dominion or control over contraband. When applied to NFA firearms, if two parts that can be easily combined to make an unregistered NFA firearm are in close proximity, and they have no other obvious legitimate purposes, then you can be charged with constructive possession.

It has happened before.

However, along the lines of the "would they prosecute" question, you have to realize that the people who are generally prosecuted under theories like this were already on the ATF's radar for something else, and this is just one extra charge they're tagging on to really ruin someone's day. There's not an epidemic of ATF agents hanging out at public ranges and busting people who have AR15 pistols and stocks nearby.

But that doesn't mean it can't happen. It just means it's unlikely.

I have the items capable of committing a crime

Just to give you one more example from a state where we have a serious methamphetamine epidemic:

You can be convicted of manufacturing methamphetamine if you have the intent to manufacture methamphetamine and possess two or more items of equipment for the manufacture of methamphetamine. A whole bunch of household items are used to make meth. Do you have coffee filters and gas-line water remover? Do you have lithium batteries and plastic tubing? The only thing stopping a prosecutor from charging you with making meth if you have any two ingredients in your house is his belief about whether you intended to make meth.

So obviously the vast majority of us don't use meth, have never used meth, and don't intend to make it. The cops aren't gonna bust down our doors and arrest us. But if you're a meth-head and they catch you with this stuff, you may be in trouble, even if you truly weren't gonna make any meth.

Same thing with NFA constructive possession. If you just happen to have the parts necessary to make an unregistered NFA firearm because you own an AR15 pistol, an AR15 rifle and multiple stocks for the rifle... you're probably not going to get busted. But if you're also trafficking cocaine across state lines, or you're also building illegal machine guns, or you're also doing anything else the feds might be watching you for... then you might end up with a constructive possession charge.

It could happen to a lot of people. It most likely won't. But it's still good to know the law and be safe.

Aaron
 
I think we are agreeing on the fact that it is HIGHLY unlikely but still possible.
I think we also agree that "constructive possession" is more of a tool to nab people on the radar already or "stack" charges to reduce the risk of a low plea or as an avenue to dig deeper.

Yep, we agree.

The problem with using examples for comparison, really, is with the NFA statutes. They don't require "intent" in order to prove you guilty. They only require possession. And if the close proximity of two objects that are readily converted into an unregistered NFA firearm is enough for "constructive possession," then we must all exercise due caution not to inadvertently violate the law.

No need to be paranoid, sure, but also don't think it couldn't happen to you. All the message board posts about how unlikely it is will be no real comfort to the person facing the charges.

Aaron
 
I've done a lot of gunsmithing with stamps in progress. At any one time I may have a barrel, receiver, or stock adapter in the safe deposit box at my bank and the other parts at home.

The ATF used to go off of simple ownership of the parts. In 2011 they formally adopted the language of the Thompson Center court ruling as a general rule after fighting it for years (saying it only applied to TC Contenders).

From ATF Ruling 2011-4:
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length ); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including
- (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and
- (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.

As Aaron pointed out intent is not part of it. Better safe than sorry.

Mike
 
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Stamp came thru. I dumped the pistol lower.

I was going to but this makes it a nice intermediate to get any issues resolved while waiting for the next stamp, so I'm keeping mine now that I've tried the SB-15:
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