AR pistols still being sold w/ braces?

Palladan44

Palladan44

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Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
1,903
I apologize, this will be a redundant question for most of you.

I submitted my ATF forms for all of my now SBRs (former AR and AK Pistols) and had them all approved.

Why do I still see some AR pistols for sale with braces on them, however there is no mention of them by the sellers requiring an ATF form and tax stamp? Also no mention of them being considered an SBR.
 
badkarmamib said:
Because there is currently a nationwide injunction to enforcement of the "rule". See @LiveLife 's post #81
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And also because most of 10 or so lawsuits against pistol brace rule were granted preliminary injunction for plaintiffs who were manufacturers/sellers of pistol braces and members of various pro 2A organizations are covered by the preliminary injunctions even prior to Britto v ATF nationwide injunction - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ace-rule-lawsuits.920838/page-4#post-12757089

ATF could appeal the preliminary injunctions to 5th Circuit but in Mock, 5th Circuit already told ATF they likely violated the APA and pistol brace rule was likely unlawful and plaintiffs would likely win the case (And why many cases were filed in 5th Circuit states ;)) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ace-rule-lawsuits.920838/page-3#post-12684296

And Congress told ATF did not have the authority to expand the definition of SBR to include pistol braces - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ace-rule-lawsuits.920838/page-2#post-12667792

While an agency may at times issue interpretations of unclear laws that Congress has passed, Congress clearly defined what constitutes a short-barreled rifle – that definition does not include a stabilizing brace attached to a pistol​
​
So I don't anticipate ATF appealing other preliminary injunctions to 5th Circuit (And why many cases were filed in 5th Circuit states ;)) and we will probably see more and more pistol braces coming back to market, very soon.

Of course, just my opinion and I am not a lawyer, just a random layperson posting on THR.
 
Palladan44 said:
Why do I still see some AR pistols for sale with braces on them, however there is no mention of them by the sellers requiring an ATF form and tax stamp? Also no mention of them being considered an SBR.
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Probably because millions of us knew it wouldn't stand legal muster.:evil:

Or that ol hindsight is 20/20 thing. :neener:


It sucks for the manufactures though. Not sure if they will re-enter the market?
 
tarosean said:
Probably because millions of us knew it wouldn't stand legal muster.:evil:

Or that ol hindsight is 20/20 thing. :neener:


It sucks for the manufactures though. Not sure if they will re-enter the market?
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I hope brace manufacturers and firearms manufacturers are able to sue the ATF and receive compensation for revenue loss as a result of ATF’s illegal actions.
 
Palmetto State Armory has resumed braced firearm sales. As of yesterday I believe
 
giggitygiggity said:
I hope brace manufacturers and firearms manufacturers are able to sue the ATF and receive compensation for revenue loss as a result of ATF’s illegal actions.
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Probably not. They will argue that it was in good faith, and government entities usually have a lot of immunity from civil tort unless it involves wrongful death or a blatant violation of a person's rights.

I could be wrong, though.

Regardless, I'm glad to see this overreach was struck down, and it happened faster than I thought it would. I expected the brace rule to eventually be struck down by the courts , but not for at least 2-3 years. ~1 year is lightning speed where our judicial system is concerned.
 
dogtown tom said:
Waste? It was free.
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...except for the cost of the electronic fingerprinting service and my time (about six hours: setting up an account, digging up old records, making sure I understood the red tape, resolving a problem with their forms specific to my zip code, driving two towns over to get my fingerprints scanned, etc.)

And I'm still waiting as well.

Obviously, if I had already done the spin-up work for other reasons, the incremental effort would have been much lower. I may try to amortize that sunk cost by looking into a hearing protection device, which I had previously avoided due to the hassle. ;)
 
DrDeFab said:
...except for the cost of the electronic fingerprinting service and my time (about six hours: setting up an account, digging up old records, making sure I understood the red tape, resolving a problem with their forms specific to my zip code, driving two towns over to get my fingerprints scanned, etc.)

And I'm still waiting as well.

Obviously, if I had already done the spin-up work for other reasons, the incremental effort would have been much lower. I may try to amortize that sunk cost by looking into a hearing protection device, which I had previously avoided due to the hassle. ;)
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Might as well at least get a rimfire can!
 
DrDeFab said:
...except for the cost of the electronic fingerprinting service and my time (about six hours: setting up an account, digging up old records, making sure I understood the red tape, resolving a problem with their forms specific to my zip code, driving two towns over to get my fingerprints scanned, etc.)

And I'm still waiting as well.

Obviously, if I had already done the spin-up work for other reasons, the incremental effort would have been much lower. I may try to amortize that sunk cost by looking into a hearing protection device, which I had previously avoided due to the hassle. ;)
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YOU chose to spend $$$ on electronic fingerprints. They arent required annd you can roll your own for free.
Six hours? Seriously?:scrutiny:
 
dogtown tom said:
YOU chose to spend $$$ on electronic fingerprints. They arent required annd you can roll your own for free.
Six hours? Seriously?:scrutiny:
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Yes, seriously, about six hours. About half of that on the phone (on hold or getting transferred several times) trying to get them to resolve a problem with their form. Their database didn't recognize that my zip code could apply to two counties, so it wouldn't let me enter my actual address. Add 90 minutes for the round-trip to where I could get my fingerprints done.

As for the electronic fingerprints, I'm a guitar player, and my fretting hand callouses make it hard to get a good impression. I've had them kicked back twice for being unreadable (a security clearance and my CHP) when government officials were the ones rolling them - that's an even bigger pain than shelling out for the electronic ones.

Not claiming any grand conspiracies here - just pointing out that even though many folks have a fairly easy time with the red tape, if you run into any kind of exception, it can be a pain.
 
DrDeFab said:
Not claiming any grand conspiracies here - just pointing out that even though many folks have a fairly easy time with the red tape, if you run into any kind of exception, it can be a pain.
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The entire NFA is setup as a deterrent. The hoops one has to jump through and the fees. In 1934 (when it was enacted) $200 felt like your wallet was $4500 lighter, our .gov has caused enough inflation that $200 isn’t much of a hit anymore.

I assume they just did the free part to get some names and numbers, to throw into a data base. They just shut the door on the sliding plastic stocks, destroy them or become a criminal but compliance is an unknown. They can quantify how many signed up for the SBR.

Sure would have been cool to buy a crappie stock and have a rifle put into the registry as a machinegun, I would have bought a truck load of them. That paper would be worth much more than $200.
 
jmorris said:
The entire NFA is setup as a deterrent. The hoops one has to jump through and the fees. In 1934 (when it was enacted) $200 felt like your wallet was $4500 lighter, our .gov has caused enough inflation that $200 isn’t much of a hit anymore.

I assume they just did the free part to get some names and numbers, to throw into a data base. They just shut the door on the sliding plastic stocks, destroy them or become a criminal but compliance is an unknown. They can quantify how many signed up for the SBR.

Sure would have been cool to buy a crappie stock and have a rifle put into the registry as a machinegun, I would have bought a truck load of them. That paper would be worth much more than $200.
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This just shows how rigid and archaic the guv is. It can work both ways though. Laws that go unchanged can inconvenience us and seem redundant.
I just hope the laws that make Merkca great (compared to the way most the rest the world is) remain etched in stone (like the redundant ones) and remain unchanged. It's a compromise. I personally believe that many NFA items should have special restrictions (just like they currently do). If they didn't, I promise they would be 100% banned by now.

Just remember N.F.A. to most the rest of the world means No Firearms Allowed.
 
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DrDeFab said:
Yes, seriously, about six hours. About half of that on the phone (on hold or getting transferred several times) trying to get them to resolve a problem with their form. Their database didn't recognize that my zip code could apply to two counties, so it wouldn't let me enter my actual address. Add 90 minutes for the round-trip to where I could get my fingerprints done.

As for the electronic fingerprints, I'm a guitar player, and my fretting hand callouses make it hard to get a good impression. I've had them kicked back twice for being unreadable (a security clearance and my CHP) when government officials were the ones rolling them - that's an even bigger pain than shelling out for the electronic ones.

Not claiming any grand conspiracies here - just pointing out that even though many folks have a fairly easy time with the red tape, if you run into any kind of exception, it can be a pain.
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I had the same zip code and county situation and could not resolve before the deadline, so I submitted with comments regarding county. I have had a few people in the phone discussing without resolution.

Got a contact for who you resolved this with?
 
Never did get anywhere on the phone, but I used this (as found on https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eforms )

Ask the Experts​

Please use the "Ask the Experts" function within the eForms application to ask questions about the application or a specific form. We hope that you will enjoy this experience and the eForms application will prove very useful to your company's daily operations.
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And eventually they notified me by email that the form was corrected. I was waiting until mid-May to submit, hoping maybe the whole thing would be resolved by then, but it's a good thing I allowed a couple of weeks, as the fixed form was made available at noon on May 31.

Oh, and this makes six months with no change in status.
 
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