Brace v Stock finalization & enforcement schedules

jahwarrior said:
Seeing all the posts here from people who plan on complying and submitting a Form 1 is sad, hilarious, and pathetic. I'm not submitting anything, to any agency, for free or not. All my firearms are staying as is.
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Amazing how brave the anonymous internet commando can be. You sir, are an example to every man.:rofl:

Hell, may as well put a regular stock on those pistols.
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Which once the Form 1 is approved, they can. It's literally a free SBR.
If you bothered reading the regulation you would know that.




Y'all are pathetic.
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No, pathetic is being ignorant about what a Form 1 means.
No one cares that you aren't going to take advantage of this free Form 1. Literally no one.

My hope is this regulation eventually gets overturned. When it does we'll undoubtedly see members complaining about missing out on that free Form 1.:rofl:
 
I have a braced AR lower and two <16" 300 BO barrels. I will probably either get the free SBR status or use the braced lower with >16" uppers. I bought a 16" 300 BO barrel last year just in case.

The Free form 1 sounds nice, but there are some downsides and complications

The rules on possession of such a gun worry me. I do not have a gun safe. If I am not at home, anyone at my home is effectively in possession of my guns. When we go out of town for a trip, a son or friend generally comes over or stays at the house to take care of the cats. This is ok for shotguns, rifles and pistols but could be considered "not ok" for a NFA gun. I have not heard of this concept causing problems for normal law abiding owners of NFA guns. However, with millions more people potentially joining the ranks of NFA owners, it could provide an ugly "selective enforcement" option to LEOs.

The required "hoop jump" for transferring an NFA gun to my heir is also something I do not like. I know the Form 5 is a free transfer, but I worry about the paperwork getting done properly and about any tricky logistics (possession of stuff until paperwork is done).

If I go with the free Form 1, I "think' I can get around some of the above concerns. I can swap a 16" upper on the NFA lower any time I am not using it as a SBR. I can also build a pistol lower with bare buffer tube to put the short upper on when not on the NFA lower. In this configuration, I believe there are no potential "possession" problems.

Another issue I see is in declaring a specific combination and the marking requirements. I tend to swap parts & pieces (including barrels) on my guns. I have two different <16" 300 BO barrels for the braced lower. If I do go the NFA route, I would also be looking for a <16" 350L barrel (I expect used versions to be cheap in short order). I know folks have built SBRs on TC Contenders. I wonder if this crowd has figured a good way to address a "multi" configuration SBR.
 
P Flados said:
Another issue I see is in declaring a specific combination and the marking requirements. I tend to swap parts & pieces (including barrels) on my guns. I have two different <16" 300 BO barrels for the braced lower. If I do go the NFA route, I would also be looking for a <16" 350L barrel (I expect used versions to be cheap in short order). I know folks have built SBRs on TC Contenders. I wonder if this crowd has figured a good way to address a "multi" configuration SBR.
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As long as you keep the original upper that was on the lower when you register it then you can swap uppers all you want without issues. And you won't need to notify the ATF for swapping uppers as long as you can easily return it to the original configuration at the time it was registered.

Also you can have as many short uppers that you want as long as you have a legal way to use them. A pistol lower or a registered SBR meets the requirements for legal possession of barrels less than 16". So if you do register one of your lowers as a SBR then you can have as many short uppers you want and/or can afford without worrying about breaking the law.

And you are correct that any NFA item does have to be secured so no one but you (or trust members if registered to a trust) have access to them. I will suggest you get some kind of locking cabinet/safe no matter what.

Dogtown and MachIV can explain more in detail about Form 5 transfers.
 
This GOA lawyer at the SHOT Show confronted the ATF on the show floor and a female agent/supervisor confirmed that they're coming after you after day 88 when your Form One isn't approved and is automatically rejected. Worth a watch. The ATF is totally out of control.

 
Capybara said:
This GOA lawyer at the SHOT Show confronted the ATF on the show floor and a female agent/supervisor confirmed that they're coming after you after day 88 when your Form One isn't approved and is automatically rejected. Worth a watch. The ATF is totally out of control.

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They're both idiots. They do not understand how it works, can't even remember how many pages in the rule he claims to have just read, has no idea how long Form 1 takes, misquotes the fines associated with violations.

There are certainly issues with this rule, but do not get your information from these knot heads.

jahwarrior said:
Seeing all the posts here from people who plan on complying and submitting a Form 1 is sad, hilarious, and pathetic. I'm not submitting anything, to any agency, for free or not. All my firearms are staying as is.

Hell, may as well put a regular stock on those pistols. Y'all are pathetic.
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Got us another tough guy!

That tongue you're wagging calling fellow gun owners bootlickers? Yeah, it's got shoe polish on it.
 
I have questions into BATFE folks about other than AR formats with factory braces and consumer added being accepted into the Tax free form one stipulation . When I get an answer I will share it. I know some of you , who I respect greatly , won't necessarily accept what they tell me one way or another. These are folks I trust and yes they are retired and one has "the inside tract", if they ask specific questions to the right people. . Meanwhile I am rounding up my ATF required size stamps I have somewhere and the positioning devices to mark where they go on the lowers to make the Name and Town Address and caliber markings look professional and compliant depth. I think it is best to remove any optical sights and anykind of fore grip or bipod for the High Def picture .
 
From reading through the 291 page Factoring Criteria, anything that adds surface area can be considered a stock under the new rule. The document also talks about using the buffer tube (bare or padded) as a cheek rest also changes the pistol into a SBR since it shows intend to shoot with two hands.

I know , it makes no sense, but that is what the ATF is stating in the Factoring Criteria document.
 
MachIVshooter said:
They're both idiots. They do not understand how it works, can't even remember how many pages in the rule he claims to have just read, has no idea how long Form 1 takes, misquotes the fines associated with violations.

There are certainly issues with this rule, but do not get your information from these knot heads.
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Four minutes in and I counted four absolutely incorrect comments.
GOA needs to find better "attorneys" than this moron. Mr GunsnGear continues to not impress.

Clicks, its all about clicks. And THR members continue to click.
 
MachIVshooter said:
Yeah, we've got enough real problems, don't need hyperbole and fear mongering.
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I agree. And guys like him stirred up enough trouble when the frame/receiver rule was proposed and then again when it was released.

I have seen so much bad information along with fear mongering over the frame/receiver rule and brace rule.

Not to mention the misunderstanding about the latest court ruling on bump stocks. One Appeals courts ruled against the ban while 3 other Appeal Courts ruled to keep the ban. And people took off like wild fire saying how the bump stock ban was overturned when in fact it has not been.

I'm glad that there are those of us that keep calm and look into things first.
 
12Bravo20 said:
Yes that is correct. And buried in the Factoring Criteria is a length for smooth pistol buffer tubes of 6 to 6.5 inches in length. The bad is they do not state how they measure the pistol length buffer tube.
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I may be a newbie to the world of NFA soon. Poking around I did note some items.

I saw on page 248 that for existing braced guns that are being "converted to pistols" by discarding the brace, the ATF is not expecting you to replace the buffer tube.

If you do not go with the Form 1, keeping a "ready to use" removed brace and a matching <16" AR-15 "pistol" with a bare buffer tube laying around sounds like a bad idea. If you do not toss the brace, a better choice would probably be putting the brace on a gun with a 16" barrel and keeping any <16" upper on a lower with bare buffer tube.

I also noted that if you go for the free Form 1, they are allowing you to adopt the original markings to the extent that you can. One item that seems goofy is that the form and markings require "caliber" and not "cartridge". Based on "normal practice" I assume a "300 Blackout" marking is good enough, but the paperwork would say 0.30" for caliber.
 
P Flados said:
I saw on page 248 that for existing braced guns that are being "converted to pistols" by discarding the brace, the ATF is not expecting you to replace the buffer tube.
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Here is the thing with that. A carbine buffer tube will really take any carbine should stock. And this can put you into constructive possession if you happen to have a brace or stock laying around AND no other legal use for them.

Plus the simple fact that a carbine buffer tube exceeds the stated 6- 6 1/2 inch length for a pistol buffer tube. A MIL-SPEC carbine buffer tube extends from the back of the receiver by 7 1/8 inch from the end plate to the end of the buffer tube. Again this is over the stated length for a pistol buffer tube. A standard pistol buffer tube measures 6 1/8 inches from the end plate. This length of 6 to 6 1/2 inches is stated clearly in the Factoring Criteria document. And this is why it is suggested to swap a Carbine buffer tube out for a true pistol buffer tube.

P Flados said:
If you do not go with the Form 1, keeping a "ready to use" removed brace and a matching <16" AR-15 "pistol" with a bare buffer tube laying around sounds like a bad idea
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Yes it is a bad idea. And this is why the ATF states to render the brace incapable of being reinstalled onto the buffer tube. As stated you can also put a >16" barrel on or register it on a Form 1 as a SBR.

P Flados said:
One item that seems goofy is that the form and markings require "caliber" and not "cartridge". Based on "normal practice" I assume a "300 Blackout" marking is good enough, but the paperwork would say 0.30" for caliber.
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That is just how the things are worded. If the lower is stamped 5.56 then that is what you put on the Form 1. If it is stamped 300 Blackout, then that is what you put on the form. And if your lower is stamped "multi", you will then have to put what caliber/cartridge is stamped on the upper on the form. The ATF will probably ask for photos in this case since they no longer allow "multi" as an option.

P Flados said:
I also noted that if you go for the free Form 1, they are allowing you to adopt the original markings to the extent that you can
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Yes this goes against the normal procedures for Form 1 applications. But the ATF decided to allow this for braced pistols that they consider to be a SBR. Filing a Form 1 for any other rifle or pistol to make a SBR still requires the maker (person filing the Form 1) to engrave their information.
 
tarosean said:
dogtown tom said:
My hope is this regulation eventually gets overturned
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Its only been 4 years for bump-stocks and its not even over yet. I'd imagine this has just as many years being tied up in the courts.
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Soonerpesek said:
I am hoping that with the lawsuits...the finalization will be ruled UNconstitutional
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FPC attorney discuss 1/6/23 5th Circuit 13-3 En Banc ruling for Cargill v. Garland that blocked ATF ruling on bump stocks also apply to SBR/Pistol brace/80% ruling because only Congress can change the definition of what is firearm under GCA and ATF does not have the power to change the definition on their own - https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2023/01/07/fifth-circuit-blocks-atf-ban-on-bump-stocks-n65923

 
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Talking about the bump stock ban here. Remember that it has only been ONE single Court of Appeals that ruled against the ban. Three other Courts of Appeal have ruled in favor of the ban. So now it will need to go to the Supreme Court to be decided.

I see people all over stating how the bump stock ban was overturned. BUT it was not overturned completely. Again only ONE court has done so.

With the brace rule it will take the courts and/or Congress to act to stop this nonsense. And we all know both take time.
 
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12Bravo20 said:
I see people all over stating how the bump stock ban wa overturned. BUT it was not overturned completely. Again only ONE court has done so.

With the brace rule it will take the courts and/or Congress to act to stop this nonsense. And we all know both take time.
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Before the Supreme Court's Bruen ruling, there were many district/circuit court/En Banc panel rulings that were opposite of Supreme Court's ruling.

What is historic and game changer that many forget about the judicial branch post Bruen is that the Supreme Court eliminated the "two step" approach and now lower courts must only use "text and history" approach for Second Amendment cases. So moving forward, lower courts' rulings that do not meet "text and history" only approach mandate will be overruled by the Supreme Court.

Besides, "We the People" elected legislative and executive representatives decided that only Congress can define what a "firearm" is and isn't under the Gun Control Act. And executive branch agency alone has violated the GCA.

Just like many states that violated the Second Amendment and overruled by the Supreme Court in Heller (2A applies to carry at home independent of militia service), Caetano (2A applies to modern firearms) and now Bruen (2A applies to carry outside of home), I can see Supreme Court ruling for 2A application to disabled (Pistol brace), hearing protection (Suppressor), elderly/women (Magazine capacity/Binary trigger), etc.

"We the People" went through similar with the First Amendment application to slaves, women (Remember they were once banned from voting?), modern forms of communication with permanent enforcement by legislative/executive representatives passing state/federal laws and now discrimination/imposition of rights against these minority groups is illegal. Now there is discrimination/imposition of rights against minority gun owners.

And justice Thomas stated in Bruen that the Second Amendment is not a "second class right" which means discrimination against minority gun owners and traditional/modern types of firearms will also be made illegal.
 
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