AR Required For Urban Rifle Training?

[Cosmoline]

I'm planning on getting more intensive rifle training, but one thing I've noticed is just about all the trainers locally and most nationally are focused on the AR platform. Thunder Ranch seems to be more broad minded but I'm not sure when I'd be able to get down there.

The question I have is, do I need to gear up with an AR type rifle or can I take these urban carbine/tactical rifle courses with any semi-auto? So much of the training I've seen on tape is AR-centric even down to the peculiar failure drills.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Most of those courses can be done with any rifle; but getting an instructor who has a good basis of experience in non-AR platforms may be more of a challenge.

If I recall, Ashley Emerson did a carbine course at one of the big schools with a .30-30 lever action and wrote it up for SWAT Magazine many years back.

 

[memphisjim]

You should be fine somewhere I read about a guy doing one with a garand

 

[NCPatrolAR]

Ask the instructor that you are thinking of training with if the weapon you are wanting to use will be a good fit for the course they are teaching. Most people think instructors are AR-specific when they arent.

 

[Fred Fuller]

My wife took Louis Awerbuck's carbine class summer of 2007, and I went along as general factotum and primary magazine loader. Don't recall the exact percentages, but there were mostly ARs, several AKs and one WW2 vintage M1 carbine in the class.

Discuss equipment suggestions with the instructor in advance, and find out if the instructor is too AR-centric to suit you. If so then hunt for another instructor. You need to train on what you want to learn to run, not on what a given instructor wants to teach.

lpl

 

[cleardiddion]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/thunder_ranch.htm

Found the article that Bratholowmew Roberts was talking about!

Interesting read although one quote made me laugh (referring to some sights he had for rifles):

Forget the tritium dots on your AR, they will most likely screw with your brain to the point that you cannot reliably make a hundred-yard head shot.

 

[taliv]

much of the techniques taught are specific to the ergos of the AR. you don't do mag changes the same on an AR as a AK, for example. So when the instructor is explaining 3 or 4 subtle things that could help you speed up, or reduce the chance of a fumble, or do it in the dark the same as the light...

and you get taught quite a lot in some classes and it takes several repetitions to let it sink in. there's no way i would take home even 10% if i were just listening and not doing it.

even on the AR though, things change if you're using a redi-mag or BAD lever or if you have ambi controls, etc.

if you go to one of the classes that self-identify as a "fighting class not a shooting class" it will probably matter less what hardware you're using.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Another +1 on checking with the specific instructor about the specific class. For some classes it may matter a lot, for others not so much -- and the platform can matter, too, possibly (depending on just how different the manual of arms for your planned blaster is compared to the AR standard, and what/if additional considerations it might impose).

 

[smince]

Suarez International teaches 'Fighting Rifle' classes and you can use anything from a bolt/lever action down to a 10/22 and be covered.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Most of those courses can be done with any rifle; but getting an instructor who has a good basis of experience in non-AR platforms may be more of a challenge.

If I recall, Ashley Emerson did a carbine course at one of the big schools with a .30-30 lever action and wrote it up for SWAT Magazine many years back.

I agree with this post. I've taken mini-14s and leveractions. Both were fine for the courses I've taken. I am comfortable in using both and they are what I have. People chuckeled when I had my lever action that has a 2.5x scope. They chukkled a lot less when I hit a 24"x24" metal plate 4 out of 5 times at 400 yards. When I travel for overnight stays/vacations to visit friends in which we will do some social plinking or hunting, I often bring my lever action. Why? I like it and enjoy it. In a pinch it would work just fine. My advice is to bring what you own and learn the pros and cons to operating it.

 

[Cosmoline]

This makes me wonder if I could get away with a bolt action instead of an autoloader. I really don't prefer autoloaders in general.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Again, check on the class and the instructor.

If the course of instruction involves stuff like controlled pairs and failure to stop drills, I can't see how a bolt gun will be acceptable. Check too that keeping your bolt gun fed and up won't detract from the overall training event -- I've been to classes where even guys shooting 1911s were holding up the show a bit for guys running higher cap designs.

Also, give some thought to caliber if you're running something besides an AR (or AK). A course of fire where you're going to shoot 1000 rounds in two days isn't anything too exciting in 5.56 or either of the Soviet x39s, but do that same thing with a 7.62x51 semi-auto or (ouch) a Mosin-Nagant and even manly men are going to be hating life by close of training.

 

[Cosmoline]

Failure to stop drill with a Mosin involves stabbing him with it. After that you hit him with it.

You're right about the round count, and in the end that may be the single biggest issue. The recommended minimums amount to several spam cans of 54R. The barrel would be molten hot and your shoulder would be in dire straights. Even 500 is a lot. For an intense day of shooting with the M39 200 is about tops unless you can let it cool for at least an hour or two after that. By that time there's just too much heat to get rid of and the rifle is really barking. The hot steel becomes something of a safety hazard when reloading.

I'm still torn on the issue, but as much as I love big wooden stocked rifles I probably should get to know the AR platform better. And it is a buyer's market at the moment.

 

[mac66]

Wrestling with a firearm that is not suited for the class not only lesson's one's ability to learn the required skill but slows down the class for everyone else. You spend all your time trying to adapt instead of learning. Don't be that guy.

 

[1911 guy]

I can only speak about the classes I've taken and these are my thoughts:

Many seem to concentrate on a given platform because that's what a lot of shooters bring to class. AR's would be an exellent example of that. As would Glocks for handgun classes. But most trainers prefer that you take the class with what you expect to use in the real world. No point in learning to speedload a S&W revolver if you carry a Sig autoloader. Same thing with rifles.

Rate of fire in classes is usually dependant on the student. There will often be a minimum amount of rounds fired to complete the course, but it is often lower than the "recommended" amount, simply because they'd like you to do the exercises more while they are right there to give you feedback.

Capacity is not an issue in itself, it is the ability (or lack of) of a shooter to bring equipment suitable to keeping pace with the majority of other shooters. For example, I use, carry, and have taken a lot of classes with a 1911. Most others in the classes have used a handgun with larger capacity. All this means is I need to have more mags on tap when a drill calls for X number of rounds to be fired. I usually go to classes with a dozen mags and carry four at a time, plus the one in the pistol. I've yet to have a capacity issue and usually find myself in the middle of the pack when it comes to final round count.

I don't have any experience being "different" in rifle classes because i use an AR, but if I did use a bolt gun, I'd just make sure I had plenty of stripper clips loaded up and pocket them for further use. Reload them when others are reloading magazines. I've played with the idea of taking the class again and using an SKS alongside my Dad, who has an old Russian SKS, but no AR.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

Some courses just happen to be more relevant to AR/AK use, and some are intentionally tailored to be specific to a certain platform. The AR platform is recognized as the standard for a combat carbine. It's what police are issued, it's what the military issues, and it's what's popular right now. The same could be said about AKs and their near-universal acceptance.

You have to tailor the rifle to the course. I have seen a course where someone brought a certain rifle just to be different and have fun, and the rifle was wholly inappropriate for the course. The instructor didn't care. In certain courses it's okay to do whatever you want. However, in other courses, it's important to have the right gun for the training. As someone pointed out above, the wrong weapon can hinder training for not only yourself, but for others and slow down the tempo of the training. You need to realistically evaluate the class and determine if your weapon platform is appropriate for that usage and employment. I intentionally take courses that are either AR-specific, or AR/AK/combat carbine (SCAR, ACR, etc)/modern battle rifle (AR10, SCAR-17, etc) specific.
The trick is to find an instructor and course that meets your needs and desires. The great thing about so much training being available is that you can tailor your training to your preferences. For instance, I intentionally choose training courses that do not allow people to use non-AR/AK/combat carbine/modern battle rifle weapons. The courses I take make those weapons problematic for the training. Additionally, I don't take tactical precision rifle/sniper courses that allow people to show up with deer rifles and benchrest rifles. But that's how I choose to select my training.
The same goes for the courses that I teach, and the weapons that I allow (and don't allow) in those courses. My courses are .le/.gov specific, and the only weapons allowed are those that are issued, carried, or relevant to their position. All students must declare their weapons ahead of time so they can be approved.

The best thing to do is to determine what weapon platform you want to shoot, and then search around for training that will allow those platforms. In your searching, you can locate instructors that have experience and expertise with that weapon. If you do that, then you can be sure to have the best experience. If, however, you take a weapon to training that you are not expertly and intimately familiar with, and the instructors there do not have much or any experience with that weapon system, you will not get as high quality of training as you would had you brought a more common weapon system like an AR. You need to be sure to locate a training program that can enhance skills that are specific to your weapon platform.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I was at one of Thunder Ranch's UR courses. As you said, they were interested in training you on what you brought, not on convincing you to buy something else.

Good reasons to limit your students to ARs is if your expertise is limited to that platform; and to limit them to .223 if that's the max your range can handle.

 

[sonick808]

phone first, you'll always know

 

[henschman]

I would train with whatever rifle you think you would actually use in such a role. If its not an AR, I would definitely contact the instructor and tell him what you're thinking about using. If it turns out it is a very AR-specific class, you might look elsewhere. But most of them aren't that specific, and teach you techniques that you can apply to most rifles.

The idea is to become as proficient as you can with what you will actually be using... not to buy rifle that you don't plan to use in the real world just so you can do well in a class.