Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle Question

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Therapydude

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I'm hoping to go to Thunder Ranch Oregon sometime next year for their Urban Rifle class. For any of you who have been to that class (either Texas or recently in Oregon), can you all give me some insight as to what type of rifle (AR platform) I should purchase? I'm leaning towards a Wilson Combat UT-15 with quad rail and collapsible stock, Eotech 551 (or 552), ARMS 40 flip up year sight, and a Tango Down vertical foregrip. What type of things/add on accesories should I avoid? I just don't want to get to class and look like an idiot from my choice of gear. From Defensive Handgun I, I know that Clint prefers stock weapons without a lot of accessories. Anyone have any insight as to what would make a great defensive/Thunder Ranch rifle?
 
Didn't 444 have a thread on this? Maybe in the raffle §? Got to be something somewhere, IIRC.

Colt, RRA, Wilson all good. Colt with a Vortex, Aimpoint ML-2, single point sling, Sully stock, light up front. I wear a Tactical Tailor vest (tape the ends on THE Pat Rogers will yell at you for being unfashionable) and have a drop pouch for mags on my belt (the thigh rigs always ended up around my ankle). I wear my regular OWB holster, cannot bring self to wear thigh rig.

Make sure your gear works and you can access it. Wear it around the house. No, I'm not kidding.

Lots of good gear in many different configs. You must release the inner Mall Ninja and try different stuff.

Beware carbines classes attract the Walter Mittys like moths to a flame. You must have patience to, um, since Art's Grandmother is about, muck about with gear. Oh, the gearheads and playing dressup; it's a fashion show at carbine class. :D
 
Pardon me if I'm out of line, but why exactly would you take be wanting to take an Urban carbine class and not even own a carbine?

I'd suggest you spend some time finding a rifle and doing a lot of familiarity practice on your own before spending the money for training.

That is an extremely fast paced class and makes the assumption that you already have a working knowledge and familiarity with your gear. That is the last place you want to be when "figuring out how it works".

Also it's not really a place for optical sights. The instructors had me take my Aimpoint off the first day of class, and it never went back on. If you leave the optics on, somewhere in the class you'll be asked to remove the batteries and proceed with your "broken" sights :)

I took 2 ARs to my class in Texas just in case I had equipment manfuntion, and I did indeed use the spare. It's not a beginner class by any means.

My 2 cents, sorry if I offend, just trying to save you some headaches.
 
No offense taken, TexasSigMan. The class I've signed up for isn't until July 2006. I figure that should give me some time to find a rifle and practice with said weapon. When I took Defensive Handgun I, I was very comfortable with my weapon (Glock 19), but realized I had a lot to learn about running it smoothly (reloading, malfunction clearance, etc). Thunder Ranch helped me out considerably with that regard and, as a result, I practice what I learned every time I'm at the range (at least once a week). Though my experience with AR rifles is limited, I hope to have a working knowledge of the weapon by the start of my class; learn a great deal while I'm there, and then incorporate that knowledge into my weekly range time. As I stated in my previous post, I plan on using an ARMS 40 flip up rear sight in addition to the Eotech (for BUIS). Also, I'll probably get a LaRue quick release mount for the Eotech in the event (as has been described) that I need to remove the sight. Thanks for everyone's input thus far!
 
Last month I attended Thunder Ranch class #1 in Oregon which was Urban Rifle, Keep it simple. I had a completely stock Bushmaster without all the bells and whistles and my buddy had a Wilson plain and simple, no fancy sights, no fancy handles. Our rifles had less down time than anyones in the class. Go with a basic rifle and basic sights and basic sling, you'll be better off without fancy harnesses and stuff. Of the 10 students in class there were 9 AR's. just be familiar with you gun, you don't need to be able to feild strip it blindfolded. I also did'nt have any mag pouches or anything like that, I carried my extra mags in my pockets, I figure if I get in a situation where I am going to need my weapon I am probably not going to be given time to don my "tactical" ensamble.
 
one more thought, call Clint and Heidi at thunder Ranch and ask them, if you have been to a class before you know how helpful they are. Don't rely on me or any other "keyboard ninja" you get advise from over the internet. It's a really enjoyable class and a lot of fun, go and have a great time I think you will get a lot out of it.
Take care
T
 
Definately buy TWO guns. If a gun is important enough to buy for self protection, you NEED two.

Less is more. That said, red dot sights rule in low light. You will probably have to use your rifle in low light rather than daylight. Dark is when the bad guys come out to play.
 
Whatever you do, make sure your rifle has a 5.56mm chamber. The only ARs that choked while I was there were both Les Baer custom jobbies with tight .223 chambers and adjustable triggers.

I'd highly reccomend that you forego the EOTech and the foregrip etc,etc and start with a basic gun. Learn to run it with iron sights in Urban Rifle and then see about modding the thing.

I'd suggest that you look at either a Bushmaster or Rock River carbine with a lightweight 16-inch barrel, sliding stock and removable carrying handle. That will serve just fine in the 'basic carbine' role and allow you to 'mod up' without requiring a new upper or stock assy. I'd probably swap the factory irons for an XS Sights white line/tritium front and same plane rear ap, run a standard military web sling and A2 flash suppressor and call it good.

I'm kind of partial to the new 20rd mags that DPMS & Bushy are offering, so I'd elect to run them exclusively and I'd get a 'happy sack' from Killer Gear or something similar for easy resupply without having to strap up in your high speed super secret underwater surf ninja tac gear.:D

..But that's just me.... :scrutiny:

Of course, with the money saved from not buying all the bells & whistles, I'd take a 2-day class from a mobile school before I made the trek, just to wring out the gear and me. :evil:
 
"Didn't 444 have a thread on this? Maybe in the raffle §? Got to be something somewhere, IIRC."

Sort of: I had a thread about taking Basic Carbine at Gunsite, several years ago. Several Gunsite instructors chimed in as well as several people who had actually taken the class.
I have never taken a class at Thunder Ranch, but as I understand the philosophy of Clint Smith, it is significantly different than that of the instructors at Gunsite. I happen to strongly agree with the Gunsite viewpoint on issues such as optical sights and the US military does also. Take that for what you paid for it.
Anyway, I asked Pat Rogers what I should take if I wanted to get the most from the class with money not being an object. I took exactly what he told me with one exception. My rifle was a Bushmaster. I used that same carbine in Gunsite Basic and Advanced Carbine as well as two times through the Frontsight Practical Rifle class. I felt, and still feel that I had the best rifle for the job.
 
"You must release the inner Mall Ninja..."
After years of fruitless searching, I have found the perfect sig line; with El Tejon's permission of course.

Here's an article from someone who went. He's pimping FMCO's load bearing vest but he gives a lot of info on the course. His choice for a rifle was a little different than yours but most of the info should still apply.

The article
 
Any suggestions for something other than an AR? I would think that a pre-ban Steyr AUG would be a good choice, but price and availabililty are two negatives. I would think that a Springfield Armory M1 would be too long/heavy/cumbersome, as well as most other .308 rifles (HK91, FN, etc). Anyone have any good suggestions? I'm not totally sold on buying an AR (though that's probably what I'll end up with). Thanks for any help you can provide
 
Have you ever handled an AUG? Tried to run one under time constraints?

Stick with the AR platform. It's most popular for a good reason.

Take two mostly-stock ARs. For a stock gun, I like a 16" A2-profile barrel with mid-length gas system, decent trigger, and an EOTech 552. I like the Wilderness Single Point sling. If you feel the need for a collapsable stock, get a Magpul M93 - otherwise stick with a fixed -A1 or -A2 stock.

Brownells is selling very nice 30-rd. AR magazines with Chrome Silicon mag springs and anti-tilt followers. Highly recommended.

Take good ammo. No third-world surplus junk - Federal XM193 or Winchester Q3131A (recent manufacture) should be your minimum standard. If it were me, I'd bite the bullet (pun intended) and buy a few cases of Black Hills blue-box 55grn.

- Chris
 
Clint is a believer in iron sights, Pat Rogers is an advocate of optics, etc, etc., etc. My advice is to get a rifle and add on anything you want that is 1) reliable, 2) useful, 3) will not interfere with the functionality of you or the gun.
 
Have seen guys struggle with bullpups. Gunhandling skills take a lot of time with the AUG.

Of course, if you take an AUG, you'll get a lot of attention and that's what carbine class is all about. :D

Have seen .30 rifles used, even a mechanical musket (FAL). :) The men using them could handle them very well. Their forearms were the size of my legs. :eek:

If you go with a .30, start your "gunercise" now. :D
 
If you have the time and the budget, attending a local 3-gun match or taking a weekend course from a closer instructor might help to shake out your gear before you go.
 
Run it with an AK. You should be able to pick two of them up for less than a new AR, if you shop around. Ammo can be had for $90/1000rds and mags run around $10 each.

Spring the big bucks and have the rear sight notch widened and XS Sight Systems 24/7 white line/tritium front sights installed and you should be good-to-go.

Of course, you may be accused of being a neo-Luddite, but the AK will run long after the custom ARs are choking and the high-speed, tricked out M4gery 'operators' have passed out in the sun. :neener:

You won't need all the high-speed operator gear that some courses cater to and by the time of your class, several vendors should have decent kydex single mag pouches for AKs available. You can run the entire class from a single mag pouch and a happy sack without any problems. Heck, you can run the class operating out of your left rear jeans pocket for a reload, if you want to.
 
I think you can get a diamond encrusted vertical foregrip for AUGs, I'll see if I can locate the source..... it's made by Rolex.

Very "uber-tactical".
 
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Therapydude,

I attended TR urban rifle with my Wilson UT-15. I could not be more happy with my purchase or class experience. Go with a high quality rear iron sight and forget the optics for the class. Add your "toys" later. Keep the rifle simple and light (you'll thank me later). You will be able to shoot better groups with a 50X scope, laser beam, retinal scorching surefire, etc, but you will learn more about marksmanship by using the iron sights.

Clint remarked privately about my rifle noting that it had run the full week without a hitch and asked how I liked it. I was left with the impression that mine was the first (wilson rifle) to go through his class (this was a while ago). As you know he has a marketing agreement with Les, but he is the kind of guy that believes you should keep all your stuff clean and keep the guns that work.

For what its worth they claim the bushies go down in the highest numbers and colt rifles work the best. I theorize this may be due to all the home built bushies out there and not due to factory guns. I have no proof other than my experience with factory bushies has been positive.

My rec: Buy the wilson because you will have pride of ownership. Buy lots of good ammo and put at least 1,000 through the gun AND your mags to make sure everything is going to work perfectly together. Keep the gun simple and light. And enjoy all the scratches, dirt, paint, etc that will be on your UT-15 after the week is over.

PM me if you want/need more details. I would have changed a few things if I knew in advance what I know now.
 
Oh yeah, the guy next to me had a bushie that didn't make it through the first mag. He was talking trash about Wilson's stuff all week. His backup gun was an AUG. After watching this poor soul coon finger the AUG, I think I would pass on the opportunity to monkey with one. You should see the malfunction clearance drills with one! :what: :what:
 
During my Gunsite Basic Carbine class, everyone had an AR15, M16, or M4 with the exception of two guys who were running AUGs. Both AUG shooters had some problems with the rifles functioning, but they made it through the class. There were two AR problems in that class. One was a guy who had a Bushmaster who had never fired that AR15 or any other AR15 prior to the first day of class. The other gun was a Colt that had the bolt break in half. It was a gun that belonged to Gunsite and who knows how many thousands of rounds had been fired through it.
IMO, bickering between Colt and Bushmaster is an internet exercise. In reality, it doesn't matter. I do have to make one comment however. People with Colts are conviced that they are worth the extra money. I am not saying they are or they are not, but in the several carbine classes I have taken, I have seen several Colts have problems. The people involved seemed to pretend it didn't happen. They just locked that out of their mind. At Gunsite Advanced carbine, a guy that was staying at the same place I was had a Colt and had problems with it more than once during the class. At night, when we were cleaning our rifles, he made a couple comments about my Bushmaster. When I mentioned that I had never had the slightest problem in any class I ever took and he was having daily problems, it all just went over his head. Same thing with the instructors. A few people had some problems with their Colts and the next day the instructors were telling us that they never see problems with Colts. Yet the day before, I had to let an active duty special forces guy use my back-up Bushmaster because his GI issue M4 went down.
 
Colts are good guns. Bushies are good guns. Rock River are good guns.

The one caveat is "Shoot your gun before you take it to class."

The finish on Bushies tends to be somewhat thicker than on other brands and I've seen them experience more stoppages in the first 500 rounds than other makes. Once that initial break-in has occurred, they run fine.

The Les Baer guns that tanked were NIB when they showed up at TR for the class and, in both cases, the triggers were set very light and the adjustment scews backed out so that they failed to reset. If they'd be shot prior, this tendency would of been spotted and fixed.

Even with an AK, I'd say shoot half a case through the friggin' thing just to help counter Murphy.;)

El T, you even know what an AK is? :p :p :p
 
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