As of the move to Oregon Thunder Ranch is all green ammo (no lead) I purchased some ahead of time and made sure it worked, It did and I had no malfunctions. There are a list of vendors on the TR web-site to buy it. It functioned fine in my Bushmaster and accuracy was the same as lead ammo and cost was about 20% more than the cheap stuff, all in all not a problem.
Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle Question
- Thread starter Therapydude
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El Tejon
Member
Paul, sure I know what an AK is. I just may have a few of them around Alcazar del Tejon and I sold a boatload of Hungarian, Finnish, Yugo and Chinese ones in the mid-80s to early 90s. 
Why, oh, why does Les does that? After having one freeze up at an Awerbuck class, first thing I do on my Les Baer TRSs is take out the blankety-blank trigger screw. Why in the name of Clint Smith is this silly thing on this weapon, and now on Les' ARs?
Why, oh, why does Les does that? After having one freeze up at an Awerbuck class, first thing I do on my Les Baer TRSs is take out the blankety-blank trigger screw. Why in the name of Clint Smith is this silly thing on this weapon, and now on Les' ARs?
That is interesting. When I went to Gunsite Advanced Carbine, we had to buy some frangible ammo for use in the indoor simulators. It was real expensive. This was about two years ago, so it sounds like the price is coming down. I still don't think I would want to buy two thousand rounds of it for a class though.
Pat Rogers warned me about Guicci triggers in my ARs. I took his advice. Since that time I have seen several go down and have heard about even more. I have come to the conclusion that those that have never had their super AR trigger go down are the ones that have never given it a serious workout. I will stick with the factory trigger. When you are making that head shot at five yards in 1.5 seconds, a match trigger doesn't give you any advantage at all. If I remember Pat's words, it was something like: " If you are stupid enough to bring a carbine with a match trigger, make sure you bring a spare carbine". I think Pat knows what he is talking about.
That being said, I do have a Jewell trigger on my 24", scoped, varmint AR. Different gun, different purpose.
Pat Rogers warned me about Guicci triggers in my ARs. I took his advice. Since that time I have seen several go down and have heard about even more. I have come to the conclusion that those that have never had their super AR trigger go down are the ones that have never given it a serious workout. I will stick with the factory trigger. When you are making that head shot at five yards in 1.5 seconds, a match trigger doesn't give you any advantage at all. If I remember Pat's words, it was something like: " If you are stupid enough to bring a carbine with a match trigger, make sure you bring a spare carbine". I think Pat knows what he is talking about.
That being said, I do have a Jewell trigger on my 24", scoped, varmint AR. Different gun, different purpose.
Here it is:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144067&highlight=Carbine
"A serviceable carbine. If you are foolish enough to have an aftermarket "Match" trigger, bring a spare carbine."
In the very class I was getting ready to go to, the guy next to me said, on the morning of the first day: "I don't care what they say about triggers, I couldn't stand my trigger and I had it worked on". On the afternoon of day two, his carbine was full auto.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144067&highlight=Carbine
"A serviceable carbine. If you are foolish enough to have an aftermarket "Match" trigger, bring a spare carbine."
In the very class I was getting ready to go to, the guy next to me said, on the morning of the first day: "I don't care what they say about triggers, I couldn't stand my trigger and I had it worked on". On the afternoon of day two, his carbine was full auto.
Therapydude
Member
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- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 62
Thanks for the input you all have provided. I've been pretty indecisive on the whole "what's the most reliable/dependable/combat accurate rifle to buy?" I've decided to go with a simple AR. Either a Colt LE 6920 or a Wilson Combat UT-15. I'm going to go ahead and use a collapsible stock (I have to be a little bit of a rebel), simple forend with no attachments, iron sights. I think simple and light will suit me best. After all, I can always add accessories later if I choose.
Doc
Member
response from Thunder Ranch
Therapydude:
i received an email from Heidi Smith at Thunder Ranch in response to your question about guns/sights etc.
happy to be of service Miss Heidi!
Therapydude:
i received an email from Heidi Smith at Thunder Ranch in response to your question about guns/sights etc.
happy to be of service Miss Heidi!
El Tejon
Member
Ther, you rebel! What are you rebelling against?
But, but, but the guys at the gun shoppe said a scope makes my rifle sooo much more accurate!
I think I should change my middle name to "yank away".
ElYankAwayTejon
But, but, but the guys at the gun shoppe said a scope makes my rifle sooo much more accurate!
I think I should change my middle name to "yank away".
ElYankAwayTejon
beerslurpy
member
Why is everyone allergic to the AK? Its accurate, reliable and ergonomic.
I just dont see what the AR brings so the table that the AK doesnt, especially if this course is about urban combat at relatively limited ranges where being able to shoot _only_ 2-3 moa isnt liability.
I just dont see what the AR brings so the table that the AK doesnt, especially if this course is about urban combat at relatively limited ranges where being able to shoot _only_ 2-3 moa isnt liability.
SpookyPistolero
Member
I agree Beerslurpy. There is this automatic feeling that the AK is a substandard substitute for the AR. I don't like the AK vs. AR debates, but I do feel that the AK is constantly getting looked down upon. I, for one, would most certainly reach for an AK if heading to such a rigorous course as Thunder Ranch, and certainly if I my life were on the line. What's to knock about simplicity and utter reliability?
-Spooky
-Spooky
Paul Gomez
Member In Memoriam
C'mon, guys, if we stopped debating "AK vs AR", then we'd have to stop "Weaver vs Iso" and "9mm vs .45" and then where'd we be? 
beerslurpy
member
Weaver vs Iso: trick question, they are both ways to put too much crap on your rifle. My rifle only has the PKAS (in soviet russia, aimpoint works without battery) and a sling as accessories. I have yet to find a situation so dark (even in my home with no lights) that I would even need a flashlight. If you are using iron sights, invest in tritium paint, if you are using glass, make sure the glass features illumination. The only attachment I would consider for my battle rifle is a suppressor.
9mm vs 45: 9mm for auto smg, 45 for pistol. Actually I think 9mm is probably going to end up being obseleted by 5.7x28mm for the smg role. I would love an uzi pattern gun that held 50+ rounds of 5.7mm isntead of 30 rds 9mm. As for pistols, if it doesnt start with a 4, dont bring it to the war.
AK vs AR:
If you spend over 400 bucks on an AK, there is no way you will be left wanting for quality. I find it odd that people willing to spend over 700 dollars to get a decent AR (and then spend more money accessorizing it) will bitch that they cant get a good quality AK for 200 bucks. The 600+ dollar AKs are a pleasure to shoot, just like the 600+ dollar ARs. Once you iron out the dollar discrepency, there is really not a world of difference between them in terms of actual shooting enjoyability.
9mm vs 45: 9mm for auto smg, 45 for pistol. Actually I think 9mm is probably going to end up being obseleted by 5.7x28mm for the smg role. I would love an uzi pattern gun that held 50+ rounds of 5.7mm isntead of 30 rds 9mm. As for pistols, if it doesnt start with a 4, dont bring it to the war.
AK vs AR:
If you spend over 400 bucks on an AK, there is no way you will be left wanting for quality. I find it odd that people willing to spend over 700 dollars to get a decent AR (and then spend more money accessorizing it) will bitch that they cant get a good quality AK for 200 bucks. The 600+ dollar AKs are a pleasure to shoot, just like the 600+ dollar ARs. Once you iron out the dollar discrepency, there is really not a world of difference between them in terms of actual shooting enjoyability.
When you take one of these classes, you pay a pretty fair amount of money for them to pass on their knowlege to you. I would assume that if you are willing to pay that money, you trust the people teaching the class to stear you in the right direction.
When I attended Basic and Advanced Carbine some of my instructors were Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck, Jeff Gonzales, and Bill Murphy among others. If you do a search, I think you will agree that they are people who have been there and done that. They are vets of military combat in various parts of the world. Some of them are highly experienced law enforcement officers with lots of street time under their belts. At least one of them is a former member of one of the most elite military units in the world and another works closely as a civilian with another of the world's most elite military units. All have seen the elephant.
None recommended an AK to me.
To me, that speaks volumes.
In the classes I took, law enforcement and military was well represented. The pros greatly outnumberd the hobbiests like me.
Between both classes, every single person in the class was using an AR15/M16 with the exception of two people who were using AUGs.
To me, that speaks volumes.
I won't even taint this with my opinion since I have no comparable experience to the people I paid to teach me.
When I attended Basic and Advanced Carbine some of my instructors were Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck, Jeff Gonzales, and Bill Murphy among others. If you do a search, I think you will agree that they are people who have been there and done that. They are vets of military combat in various parts of the world. Some of them are highly experienced law enforcement officers with lots of street time under their belts. At least one of them is a former member of one of the most elite military units in the world and another works closely as a civilian with another of the world's most elite military units. All have seen the elephant.
None recommended an AK to me.
To me, that speaks volumes.
In the classes I took, law enforcement and military was well represented. The pros greatly outnumberd the hobbiests like me.
Between both classes, every single person in the class was using an AR15/M16 with the exception of two people who were using AUGs.
To me, that speaks volumes.
I won't even taint this with my opinion since I have no comparable experience to the people I paid to teach me.
Doc
Member
beer & spooky:
in my previous UR classes at Thunder Ranch there was always
at least one AK in the classes. they ran and shot well.
except for the ones which had been altered...
you know, for: accuracy, reliability and CDI factor...
AK is a very suitable choice for any UR class.
BUT at Thunder Ranch Oregon you gotta shoot green ammo
so, just have a source lined up and you are good to go
in my previous UR classes at Thunder Ranch there was always
at least one AK in the classes. they ran and shot well.
except for the ones which had been altered...
you know, for: accuracy, reliability and CDI factor...
AK is a very suitable choice for any UR class.
BUT at Thunder Ranch Oregon you gotta shoot green ammo
so, just have a source lined up and you are good to go
beerslurpy
member
Green ammo? Like non-lead? I am pretty sure all the non-lead ammo is banned from import. Ive never heard of such a thing for the AK. Since shooting clean ammo at teh range is a us military thing, there probably isnt even a market for it.
I guess that explains the dominance of the M16 at the ranges.
I guess that explains the dominance of the M16 at the ranges.
RomanKnight
Member
My 2 cents + tax
Clint will never say that this rifle or that handgun is junk, or don't use it. His idea is: get something that YOU are comfortable using, and TRAIN with it. KISS. Spend your money on ammo, not on gadgets and gizmos. If you experience malfunctions, take it to the gunsmith, or get rid or it, and choose (more) wisely for your next purchase. I used a Sprigfield M1A Scout, no malfs (well, all the springs and extractor&ejector replaced with original GI parts), with a Vepr in 223/5.56 as backup. He made me get rid of the Trijicon ReflexII, and use iron. I had one AK (I believe a Romanian one) in the class, no malfs. The rest, ARs, and some had problems. Some operator (needed a generous amount of CLP to get it running again) some well, call it whatever you want (empty case got stuck between receiver and bolt, if I recall corectly, and needed time and effort to correct). Some had ACOGs, one had a USOptics Sn-4, all with no problems. The guys knew how to use'm. Someone used a Les Baer TR, and it run fine, I believe (though Clint said he wanted it to be lighter, under 7lbs).
Clint will never say that this rifle or that handgun is junk, or don't use it. His idea is: get something that YOU are comfortable using, and TRAIN with it. KISS. Spend your money on ammo, not on gadgets and gizmos. If you experience malfunctions, take it to the gunsmith, or get rid or it, and choose (more) wisely for your next purchase. I used a Sprigfield M1A Scout, no malfs (well, all the springs and extractor&ejector replaced with original GI parts), with a Vepr in 223/5.56 as backup. He made me get rid of the Trijicon ReflexII, and use iron. I had one AK (I believe a Romanian one) in the class, no malfs. The rest, ARs, and some had problems. Some operator (needed a generous amount of CLP to get it running again) some well, call it whatever you want (empty case got stuck between receiver and bolt, if I recall corectly, and needed time and effort to correct). Some had ACOGs, one had a USOptics Sn-4, all with no problems. The guys knew how to use'm. Someone used a Les Baer TR, and it run fine, I believe (though Clint said he wanted it to be lighter, under 7lbs).
Good Rifles All....
My first time through Urban Rifle I used a L1A1 style FN-FAL. By the end of the week I was tired of holding it up "in the pocket" for all the drills, but it woked real good. I needed more physical conditioning to be comfortable with the heavier rifle, but at my age that is a long-term effort! The hole excavated in the berm behind my target was *Appreciably* larger than the holes caused by the 5.56 rifles. The L1A1 was a bit harder to do tactical reload drills with than the AR style, because you can not hold two magazines in one hand. Mine was the only ‘real’ rifle in class, and there was only one AK type in the class.
The AK style really made the operator work hard in the reloading and malfunction drills especially in terms of manipulating the safety. I did not get the impression the rifle was ergonomic and I did not enjoy shooting the AK during the “make someone else’s gun work†drill.
Some of the tricked out ARs had some trouble, one was related to using steel cased ammo. Clint really made a point about someone spending $1500 on a trick carbine and $2000 on the class and then wanting to save $150.00 by buying the absolutely cheapest ammo.
My second Urban Rifle class I used an Bushmaster Dissapator with a fluted barrel. It worked fine, no real rifles in that class at all.
I recognize that economic realities intrude, but I can not imagine a person choosing to not make the commitment to get first rate training.
Get good training. Do without internet access for a year to pay for it, do without lattes, beer, cigars, cool nylon gear, etc. You will have made a good bargin.
Noel
My first time through Urban Rifle I used a L1A1 style FN-FAL. By the end of the week I was tired of holding it up "in the pocket" for all the drills, but it woked real good. I needed more physical conditioning to be comfortable with the heavier rifle, but at my age that is a long-term effort! The hole excavated in the berm behind my target was *Appreciably* larger than the holes caused by the 5.56 rifles. The L1A1 was a bit harder to do tactical reload drills with than the AR style, because you can not hold two magazines in one hand. Mine was the only ‘real’ rifle in class, and there was only one AK type in the class.
The AK style really made the operator work hard in the reloading and malfunction drills especially in terms of manipulating the safety. I did not get the impression the rifle was ergonomic and I did not enjoy shooting the AK during the “make someone else’s gun work†drill.
Some of the tricked out ARs had some trouble, one was related to using steel cased ammo. Clint really made a point about someone spending $1500 on a trick carbine and $2000 on the class and then wanting to save $150.00 by buying the absolutely cheapest ammo.
My second Urban Rifle class I used an Bushmaster Dissapator with a fluted barrel. It worked fine, no real rifles in that class at all.
I recognize that economic realities intrude, but I can not imagine a person choosing to not make the commitment to get first rate training.
Get good training. Do without internet access for a year to pay for it, do without lattes, beer, cigars, cool nylon gear, etc. You will have made a good bargin.
Noel
Thunder Ranch Oregon UR questions
I too will be taking a class up there next year. It will be UR, I can't wait.
I tried to get some friends to go with me but that has not worked out. So I will go it alone.
My question for those that have taken classes from Clint are the following.
1. Will a basic 20" Colt AR be-okay. What I mean is would a shorter barrel work better in the UR course.
2. I wanted to get a viking Tactical sling which is a 2 point sling.
3. Last but not least how should extra mags be carried.
Thanks,
Jan
I too will be taking a class up there next year. It will be UR, I can't wait.
I tried to get some friends to go with me but that has not worked out. So I will go it alone.
My question for those that have taken classes from Clint are the following.
1. Will a basic 20" Colt AR be-okay. What I mean is would a shorter barrel work better in the UR course.
2. I wanted to get a viking Tactical sling which is a 2 point sling.
3. Last but not least how should extra mags be carried.
Thanks,
Jan
El Tejon
Member
Jan, you'll have a great time, enjoy yourself.
A gun is a gun. Ensure it works and you'll be fine.
Sling is fine, if you can manipulate it. Have seen plenty run a 2 point along with yours truly.
Carry your mags the way your practice with them. I like them on my chest. Have seen them carried on belt or even in surplus gas mask bag (of course that was me).
Best wishes.
A gun is a gun. Ensure it works and you'll be fine.
Sling is fine, if you can manipulate it. Have seen plenty run a 2 point along with yours truly.
Carry your mags the way your practice with them. I like them on my chest. Have seen them carried on belt or even in surplus gas mask bag (of course that was me).
Best wishes.
Doc
Member
El T is correct; just make sure your gun runs...
but the 20" barrel is fine (hopefully it's not an HBAR...)
you might consider removing optional equipment;
to make it lighter (even a 7# gun gets heavy on day 4...)
i prefer a fixed stock...and a VERY light gun < 6#,
but that's just me
as far as slings; clint is not particularly enamored of 'tactical' slings;
that doesn't mean you can't use one, but be sure
(1) it will function as a regular carry sling if need be
(or bring a regular sling too)
(2) practice with it before you go; though it's easy to use make sure
that while you are moving around with the rifle slung you can access
the ground without covering people/stuff you might value
(it is the manipulation of the rifle while slung which causes problems for students,
not the carrying of the rifle in the tac sling)
ditto the mag rec. i use 2 carriers on my belt and one or two in the pocket
i prefer mag pulls on my mags; and i use 20 rounders, not thirty...
but if you shoot as much as El T, you might find the 30's more to your needs
doc
but the 20" barrel is fine (hopefully it's not an HBAR...)
you might consider removing optional equipment;
to make it lighter (even a 7# gun gets heavy on day 4...)
i prefer a fixed stock...and a VERY light gun < 6#,
but that's just me
as far as slings; clint is not particularly enamored of 'tactical' slings;
that doesn't mean you can't use one, but be sure
(1) it will function as a regular carry sling if need be
(or bring a regular sling too)
(2) practice with it before you go; though it's easy to use make sure
that while you are moving around with the rifle slung you can access
the ground without covering people/stuff you might value
(it is the manipulation of the rifle while slung which causes problems for students,
not the carrying of the rifle in the tac sling)
ditto the mag rec. i use 2 carriers on my belt and one or two in the pocket
i prefer mag pulls on my mags; and i use 20 rounders, not thirty...
but if you shoot as much as El T, you might find the 30's more to your needs
doc
ClonaKilty
Member
Also check out this thread on "The perfect tactical carbine setup" at ar15.com:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012
El Tejon
Member
Hey! I only shoot when I have a target.
ElbullethoseTejon
ElbullethoseTejon
KaceCoyote
Member
if The SU took AK mags, not AR mags...I'd be all for it.
Doc
Member
help! what's an SU?
ShackleMeNot
Member
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